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Leinster Football

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Looking for input particularly from Kildare Meath Westmeath, Laois and Offaly people, what is happening on the ground with Leinster football? Are the best players making themselves available? Is it hard to keep a team together given the annual hammering to Dublin? The result is there's no Leinster team in D1 outside of Dublin but what are the main reasons?

Obviously Dublins dominance is having an impact. I always thought the Provincial tournaments were on their last legs and should replaced, right now they are saving football by giving non Leinster teams something to aim for before the inevitable defeat to Dublin

Cbar (Mayo) - Posts: 308 - 20/12/2020 20:20:39    2324798

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Leinster football is dead and buried

mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 20/12/2020 21:28:10    2324837

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The beatings by Dublin are getting larger and larger for most teams. The dominance of Dublin has a massive impact. Laois or anyone else's reward for having a good year and reaching the final is a circa 20 point hammering which only sets you back. Maybe for 1 year it's a novelty reaching the final, but if it happens twice you kinda say what's the point. I rarely miss a Laois game and much prefer the league. Great competition.

Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 767 - 20/12/2020 21:30:18    2324839

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I would make a Dublin North and a Dublin South. The latter would be sent to Munster to give them 7 counties. Connacht have 7 already (Ny and Lon included) This would be awesome.

maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1196 - 20/12/2020 21:38:11    2324848

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Replying To Malonemagic:  "The beatings by Dublin are getting larger and larger for most teams. The dominance of Dublin has a massive impact. Laois or anyone else's reward for having a good year and reaching the final is a circa 20 point hammering which only sets you back. Maybe for 1 year it's a novelty reaching the final, but if it happens twice you kinda say what's the point. I rarely miss a Laois game and much prefer the league. Great competition."
Are the best players making themselves available? Understandable if they are not

Cbar (Mayo) - Posts: 308 - 21/12/2020 06:44:34    2324937

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Replying To Malonemagic:  "The beatings by Dublin are getting larger and larger for most teams. The dominance of Dublin has a massive impact. Laois or anyone else's reward for having a good year and reaching the final is a circa 20 point hammering which only sets you back. Maybe for 1 year it's a novelty reaching the final, but if it happens twice you kinda say what's the point. I rarely miss a Laois game and much prefer the league. Great competition."
But surely league position is a measure of where any team is at. They finished 5th in D2 last year. Weak counties like this need to take the focus off Dublin and concentrate on their league position. It's like Swansea worrying about meeting Liverpool in the FA Cup. Surely these weaker counties need to throw all of their focus into the league and having got into D1 then put real focus into the championship. There will only be one Leinster team in D1 next year. The quality is very poor. I'd be in favour of scrapping the provincials anyway. Despite Tipp's win this year Ulster is the only competitive province.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 21/12/2020 13:24:05    2325071

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Replying To Joxer:  "But surely league position is a measure of where any team is at. They finished 5th in D2 last year. Weak counties like this need to take the focus off Dublin and concentrate on their league position. It's like Swansea worrying about meeting Liverpool in the FA Cup. Surely these weaker counties need to throw all of their focus into the league and having got into D1 then put real focus into the championship. There will only be one Leinster team in D1 next year. The quality is very poor. I'd be in favour of scrapping the provincials anyway. Despite Tipp's win this year Ulster is the only competitive province."
But Cork beat Kerry too. Not like it was a 1-off miracle year by just Tipp. And Limerick almost beat tipp too.

Connaught has had 3 different winners in the last 4 years.

Ulster is competitive as you say.

It's just Leinster that's not.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 21/12/2020 14:12:03    2325085

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Replying To Cbar:  "Looking for input particularly from Kildare Meath Westmeath, Laois and Offaly people, what is happening on the ground with Leinster football? Are the best players making themselves available? Is it hard to keep a team together given the annual hammering to Dublin? The result is there's no Leinster team in D1 outside of Dublin but what are the main reasons?

Obviously Dublins dominance is having an impact. I always thought the Provincial tournaments were on their last legs and should replaced, right now they are saving football by giving non Leinster teams something to aim for before the inevitable defeat to Dublin"
1) whats happening on the ground: pretty similar club numbers as always. I would say there is however a huge disconnect in Leinster to modern ways of playing the game, i.e tactical ineptitude, poor coaching, and a tendency to play to the chest, man on man, and attack focused ala the old school. That wins nothing any more. Also they aren't conditioned like Ulster teams or the big names from Munster or Connacht. There is a tendency to stick to tradition and history and other such buzzwords even in the face of their own slow decline. In the case of Meath there is also green tinted delusion regarding the lack of effort to work hard to fix the situation. The "next year is our year" phenomenon.
Leinster is also more split than any other province with competition from other sports and there are League of Ireland teams in Louth/Meath and Westmeath, healthy soccer leagues in the province, and several All Ireland league rugby clubs with dozens of registered players, along with many other Leinster league rugby clubs. Many of which are very successful and look after their players in ways that young lads will be attracted to. Sport in Meath and indeed Leinster has plurality which isnt the case in other places notably Mayo, Cavan, Tyrone, Roscommon, etc where there would be nothing to do without GAA, with respect. The fella on the street isn't too pushed about the county anymore, although fans are fans and many are still interested. Morale however is in the gutter and apathy reigns supreme.

2) best players making themselves available? Its arguable. In Meath dozens have walked away and/or made themselves unavailable for totally understandable reasons. Others have left to pursue Aussie Rules and this has happened in other counties, thats life. Other factors I would point out (in the case of Meath): bad management from within, under resourcing of development squads, bad retention at all levels, loss of identity in a hugely expanding urban county, hammerings to Dublin, and copping on that something is rotten in the organisation regarding Dublin, hunger levels, selection issues arising from retention, malaise on ground level, and quite simply a lack of confidence and drive. Its a vicious cycle. There is no quick fix to Leinster football, in fact there may be no fix at all. The quality (by modern standards) just isn't there anymore. Thats not to say the talent isn't there, which it is, but the end product hasn't been good enough to cause a ripple in 20 years, bar a few good days for Meath and Kildare (most consistently good) and a Leinster each for Westmeath and Laois, with special mention to Wexford in the late 00s and Louth in the early 10s. Im scraping the barrel here.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 587 - 21/12/2020 14:18:03    2325087

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Replying To Joxer:  "But surely league position is a measure of where any team is at. They finished 5th in D2 last year. Weak counties like this need to take the focus off Dublin and concentrate on their league position. It's like Swansea worrying about meeting Liverpool in the FA Cup. Surely these weaker counties need to throw all of their focus into the league and having got into D1 then put real focus into the championship. There will only be one Leinster team in D1 next year. The quality is very poor. I'd be in favour of scrapping the provincials anyway. Despite Tipp's win this year Ulster is the only competitive province."
scrapping the provinces makes no sense. Change structure of season but dont remove many counties only chance of silverware. tipp and cavan winning this year is exactly why the 4 provincial competitions have to be kept

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 21/12/2020 14:57:03    2325093

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Replying To Joxer:  "But surely league position is a measure of where any team is at. They finished 5th in D2 last year. Weak counties like this need to take the focus off Dublin and concentrate on their league position. It's like Swansea worrying about meeting Liverpool in the FA Cup. Surely these weaker counties need to throw all of their focus into the league and having got into D1 then put real focus into the championship. There will only be one Leinster team in D1 next year. The quality is very poor. I'd be in favour of scrapping the provincials anyway. Despite Tipp's win this year Ulster is the only competitive province."
It's a lot easier for teams to train in winter and players to commit for the league if there is a promise of some good days out in summer. Cavan lads will already be looking forward to next season after their provincial win this year, if you told them their first championship game is against Dublin the novelty would soon wear off.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 21/12/2020 15:18:20    2325099

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Replying To Joxer:  "But surely league position is a measure of where any team is at. They finished 5th in D2 last year. Weak counties like this need to take the focus off Dublin and concentrate on their league position. It's like Swansea worrying about meeting Liverpool in the FA Cup. Surely these weaker counties need to throw all of their focus into the league and having got into D1 then put real focus into the championship. There will only be one Leinster team in D1 next year. The quality is very poor. I'd be in favour of scrapping the provincials anyway. Despite Tipp's win this year Ulster is the only competitive province."
If you want to scrap the provincials then scrap the all Ireland when your at it one team can win the all Ireland 10 teams in country have a chance of winning a provincial title

Irishcelt (Wicklow) - Posts: 149 - 21/12/2020 15:22:46    2325103

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Replying To Joxer:  "But surely league position is a measure of where any team is at. They finished 5th in D2 last year. Weak counties like this need to take the focus off Dublin and concentrate on their league position. It's like Swansea worrying about meeting Liverpool in the FA Cup. Surely these weaker counties need to throw all of their focus into the league and having got into D1 then put real focus into the championship. There will only be one Leinster team in D1 next year. The quality is very poor. I'd be in favour of scrapping the provincials anyway. Despite Tipp's win this year Ulster is the only competitive province."
I think what you are saying is right, getting to D1, playing the big teams should be the priority. But ultimately, getting to D1 to play the big teams is to prepare a team for Championship and making progress there.

In Leinster, even if you are a D1 team (such as Meath were) not only are you not going to win a Provincial, you are going to get hammered trying. That's why I am asking the question - are Laois (and others) able to keep teams together or is it a constant rebuilding exercise because you can't keep players motivated where there is no real reward.

The only difference I see between Meath and say Mayo or Ross is that Mayo and Ross can see progress being made - we won Connacht this year, that showed progress, something to work on. Meath don't have that - if they keep the Dublin defeat to less than 10 pts it's not a bad year and that's not much of a motivation.

And I would have agreed with you re Provincials - but I don't anymore. The most that the vast majority of teams aim for is a Provincial crown . If we don't have that we are all chasing 1 prize which is not achievable for 31 counties right now....if we didn't have the Provincials, the AI might be like the current Leinster championship

Cbar (Mayo) - Posts: 308 - 21/12/2020 15:31:11    2325110

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Replying To KillingFields:  "scrapping the provinces makes no sense. Change structure of season but dont remove many counties only chance of silverware. tipp and cavan winning this year is exactly why the 4 provincial competitions have to be kept"
I disagree there. Why should some counties have a chance of success and others ( ie Leinster teams) none. A league based championship gives every county a chance of success

Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 767 - 21/12/2020 15:36:33    2325111

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Replying To Young_gael:  "1) whats happening on the ground: pretty similar club numbers as always. I would say there is however a huge disconnect in Leinster to modern ways of playing the game, i.e tactical ineptitude, poor coaching, and a tendency to play to the chest, man on man, and attack focused ala the old school. That wins nothing any more. Also they aren't conditioned like Ulster teams or the big names from Munster or Connacht. There is a tendency to stick to tradition and history and other such buzzwords even in the face of their own slow decline. In the case of Meath there is also green tinted delusion regarding the lack of effort to work hard to fix the situation. The "next year is our year" phenomenon.
Leinster is also more split than any other province with competition from other sports and there are League of Ireland teams in Louth/Meath and Westmeath, healthy soccer leagues in the province, and several All Ireland league rugby clubs with dozens of registered players, along with many other Leinster league rugby clubs. Many of which are very successful and look after their players in ways that young lads will be attracted to. Sport in Meath and indeed Leinster has plurality which isnt the case in other places notably Mayo, Cavan, Tyrone, Roscommon, etc where there would be nothing to do without GAA, with respect. The fella on the street isn't too pushed about the county anymore, although fans are fans and many are still interested. Morale however is in the gutter and apathy reigns supreme.

2) best players making themselves available? Its arguable. In Meath dozens have walked away and/or made themselves unavailable for totally understandable reasons. Others have left to pursue Aussie Rules and this has happened in other counties, thats life. Other factors I would point out (in the case of Meath): bad management from within, under resourcing of development squads, bad retention at all levels, loss of identity in a hugely expanding urban county, hammerings to Dublin, and copping on that something is rotten in the organisation regarding Dublin, hunger levels, selection issues arising from retention, malaise on ground level, and quite simply a lack of confidence and drive. Its a vicious cycle. There is no quick fix to Leinster football, in fact there may be no fix at all. The quality (by modern standards) just isn't there anymore. Thats not to say the talent isn't there, which it is, but the end product hasn't been good enough to cause a ripple in 20 years, bar a few good days for Meath and Kildare (most consistently good) and a Leinster each for Westmeath and Laois, with special mention to Wexford in the late 00s and Louth in the early 10s. Im scraping the barrel here."
Thanks for detailed response. Doesn't provide much hope that things will change anytime soon unfortunately

Cbar (Mayo) - Posts: 308 - 21/12/2020 15:36:48    2325112

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Replying To Cbar:  "Thanks for detailed response. Doesn't provide much hope that things will change anytime soon unfortunately"
No problem, I hope you gained some insight.

Leinster is in bad shape, no question. There are causes for optimism however limited they may be:
1) Meath, Kildare, Offaly are all uniquely raising their game at minor (u17) level. Dublin at this grade arent winning. However its a mighty stretch to apply progress in the counties to the name of 16 year olds. A very big stretch indeed.
2) Kildare at U20 in the last few years.
3) Outside of Dublin, there isnt a lot between Meath, Kildare, Westmeath, Laois, Offaly and Longford. All decent sides on their day. Take Dublin out of the equation and you have a healthy championship. Meath/Kildare are probably the only two on the cusp of tier one with the rest being tier two teams, divisional ratings aside.
4) Mickey Harte going to Louth; a proper county that needs an awakening.
5) John Maughan has done a good job on Offaly and they seem to be getting their war forges back in order as of the last two years.
6) The Carlow management (Poacher) a few years back brought them on a lot and they recorded a few inspired wins, one over Kildare in the championship.
7) Lomgford beat Meath in the championship a few years back. Another county with potential.
8) Meath and Kildare getting to Division One, even if it was past their ceiling. They still got there.

All these may seem like baby steps and small potatoes, and they are, but these are signs within the province of progress. Dublin has to be taken aside in these instances however.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 587 - 21/12/2020 16:02:56    2325125

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Replying To cavanman47:  "But Cork beat Kerry too. Not like it was a 1-off miracle year by just Tipp. And Limerick almost beat tipp too.

Connaught has had 3 different winners in the last 4 years.

Ulster is competitive as you say.

It's just Leinster that's not."
Cork beat Kerry due to appalling decisions on the sideline and terrible conditions. If they had their tactics right then Kerry would have strolled to their 82nd title and I think 8 in a row. Tipp proved how poor Cork are. It would have been 11 in a row for Kerry only for Cork had the audacity to interrupt the annual procession in 2012. Is that a competitive province? I don't think so. In Connaught, predictably, Mayo took their 47th title. They continue to be a cut above the rest and although Galway offer some resistance in this two horse race competition, Mayo continue to be a step ahead of them. Ulster is competitive with Donegal, Tyrone, Cavan, Monaghan and next year Armagh I think, probably all operating about the same level. The provincial competitions are gone now with Kerry, Mayo and Dublin operating at a higher level than anyone in their provinces and a layer above anyone at national level. This year was Kerry's but they blew it on the line.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 21/12/2020 16:54:15    2325137

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Replying To Cbar:  "I think what you are saying is right, getting to D1, playing the big teams should be the priority. But ultimately, getting to D1 to play the big teams is to prepare a team for Championship and making progress there.

In Leinster, even if you are a D1 team (such as Meath were) not only are you not going to win a Provincial, you are going to get hammered trying. That's why I am asking the question - are Laois (and others) able to keep teams together or is it a constant rebuilding exercise because you can't keep players motivated where there is no real reward.

The only difference I see between Meath and say Mayo or Ross is that Mayo and Ross can see progress being made - we won Connacht this year, that showed progress, something to work on. Meath don't have that - if they keep the Dublin defeat to less than 10 pts it's not a bad year and that's not much of a motivation.

And I would have agreed with you re Provincials - but I don't anymore. The most that the vast majority of teams aim for is a Provincial crown . If we don't have that we are all chasing 1 prize which is not achievable for 31 counties right now....if we didn't have the Provincials, the AI might be like the current Leinster championship"
That's the whole purpose of the league and divisions, to give counties the chance to win silverware playing at the right level. It should be seen as a stepping stone on the way to mounting a provincial title challenge. Sam is not going to be obtainable, ever, for the vast majority of counties. It's a knockout competition after-all and the cream will always rise to the top. In soccer it's almost certain that 1 of 4-5 teams will win the FA cup next year. It's the nature of the beast. Two tier championship may be the solution as again it is more akin to league divisions and counties playing at their own level.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 21/12/2020 17:10:23    2325147

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Replying To cavanman47:  "But Cork beat Kerry too. Not like it was a 1-off miracle year by just Tipp. And Limerick almost beat tipp too.

Connaught has had 3 different winners in the last 4 years.

Ulster is competitive as you say.

It's just Leinster that's not."
The one where Dublin is.
The other 3 would be the same if they played there. To say otherwise is nonsense.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 21/12/2020 17:56:20    2325163

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Replying To Young_gael:  "1) whats happening on the ground: pretty similar club numbers as always. I would say there is however a huge disconnect in Leinster to modern ways of playing the game, i.e tactical ineptitude, poor coaching, and a tendency to play to the chest, man on man, and attack focused ala the old school. That wins nothing any more. Also they aren't conditioned like Ulster teams or the big names from Munster or Connacht. There is a tendency to stick to tradition and history and other such buzzwords even in the face of their own slow decline. In the case of Meath there is also green tinted delusion regarding the lack of effort to work hard to fix the situation. The "next year is our year" phenomenon.
Leinster is also more split than any other province with competition from other sports and there are League of Ireland teams in Louth/Meath and Westmeath, healthy soccer leagues in the province, and several All Ireland league rugby clubs with dozens of registered players, along with many other Leinster league rugby clubs. Many of which are very successful and look after their players in ways that young lads will be attracted to. Sport in Meath and indeed Leinster has plurality which isnt the case in other places notably Mayo, Cavan, Tyrone, Roscommon, etc where there would be nothing to do without GAA, with respect. The fella on the street isn't too pushed about the county anymore, although fans are fans and many are still interested. Morale however is in the gutter and apathy reigns supreme.

2) best players making themselves available? Its arguable. In Meath dozens have walked away and/or made themselves unavailable for totally understandable reasons. Others have left to pursue Aussie Rules and this has happened in other counties, thats life. Other factors I would point out (in the case of Meath): bad management from within, under resourcing of development squads, bad retention at all levels, loss of identity in a hugely expanding urban county, hammerings to Dublin, and copping on that something is rotten in the organisation regarding Dublin, hunger levels, selection issues arising from retention, malaise on ground level, and quite simply a lack of confidence and drive. Its a vicious cycle. There is no quick fix to Leinster football, in fact there may be no fix at all. The quality (by modern standards) just isn't there anymore. Thats not to say the talent isn't there, which it is, but the end product hasn't been good enough to cause a ripple in 20 years, bar a few good days for Meath and Kildare (most consistently good) and a Leinster each for Westmeath and Laois, with special mention to Wexford in the late 00s and Louth in the early 10s. Im scraping the barrel here."
I'd agree with a lot of that. Definitely some lads choosing not to play county ball but I'm not sure it would dramatically change Meath's results.

The loss of identity thing is hard to explain to counties who haven't experienced it. Obviously there's a lot of potential for increased numbers which is bearing fruit in Ratoath but it's strange at times. Housing estates with Dublin flags everywhere, kids all wearing Dublin jerseys, or the local pub has turned into a Liverpool/United local where GAA is an afterthought. Lots of people with lots of different interests which is perfectly understandable. And like most other counties, the young lads, like I once did, move away for university and work. The North of the county is a bit different, population decline due to a lack of work etc. All of these things are just kinda typical population trends. Meath was a football mad county and the reality is we aren't anymore. It's not the obsession it once was.

The County Board does seem to be improving structures but we've been a long time getting our act together. It obviously needs resources too to try arrest the decline of the game, same as Dublin needed twenty years ago.

HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 271 - 21/12/2020 18:42:29    2325186

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Replying To HighKings:  "I'd agree with a lot of that. Definitely some lads choosing not to play county ball but I'm not sure it would dramatically change Meath's results.

The loss of identity thing is hard to explain to counties who haven't experienced it. Obviously there's a lot of potential for increased numbers which is bearing fruit in Ratoath but it's strange at times. Housing estates with Dublin flags everywhere, kids all wearing Dublin jerseys, or the local pub has turned into a Liverpool/United local where GAA is an afterthought. Lots of people with lots of different interests which is perfectly understandable. And like most other counties, the young lads, like I once did, move away for university and work. The North of the county is a bit different, population decline due to a lack of work etc. All of these things are just kinda typical population trends. Meath was a football mad county and the reality is we aren't anymore. It's not the obsession it once was.

The County Board does seem to be improving structures but we've been a long time getting our act together. It obviously needs resources too to try arrest the decline of the game, same as Dublin needed twenty years ago."
The loss of identity thing is massive in Meath, especially on the Dublin border towns like Ratoath, Dunboyne and Ashbourne. Navan too.

Ironically I think Dublin splitting would help that as maybe the thousands immigrants who have shown no sign of embracing their new county might get on board a bit more within the county and a new identity forged. Lot of brains and know-how must have come in but so far they seem to act like Meath is just a place to sleep in. The days of hard as nails Meath teams is gone forever though I think now. We're now a disorganized, underachieving town club team (to use a club analogy).

Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1319 - 21/12/2020 20:37:09    2325230

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