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All Ireland Football Final 2020 - Dublin V Mayo

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Replying To sam1884:  "Ok ok settle down with the charity offers :). In the end next year you'll probably be right especially as the All Ireland final is only 7 months away. Cluxton et al will see that as a short season and will likely hang around for it. It's the big gap from July 2021 to Feb 2022 we're likely to see some sort of transition in Dublin where a lot of the legends step aside.

Inter county teams; certainly the top 7 or 8 have similar standard players; all very good, talented inter county players. There is about 3 to 5% of inter county players who make the difference and finding these is harder. It's ok saying a lot of new players have came onto the Dublin team; you're correct but when the top, top players, especially thinking the of the consistent rocks that are Cluxton and McCarthy go, does it have an impact!

For example with Kerry's resources (not a dig), how they operate their affairs which is a credit and the fact they won 5 All Ireland minor titles in a row (some achievement in itself), it's inevitable in the next year or two they're going to be some force and it wouldn't surprise me when they make the breakthrough they don't go on and add multiple titles, possibly getting the upper hand on Dublin again.

My point is Kerry are building their castle in the background, have changed up their system, responded to what is happening and as guaranteed as night follows day an angry, determined, extrembly talented Kerry team are not far away.

Instead of crying about Dublin this is what all the big counties should be doing; yes Dublin have become a business, even if central funding is cut and they'll be there or thereabouts every year but a time is coming when the counties with a little bit of planning are going to catch them.

The sad state of affairs though is to compete you will need a semi professional set up and huge resources. That will become the new norm and only a small number of counties will be able to generate what's required."
That's an accurate enough post.

But it does highlight the issue.

The first few paragraphs paint a rosy picture, that all is OK and the championship will become competitive again.

But the last paragraph is the grim reality. It will take a semi-professional setup to come anywhere near competing with Dublin. Now Kerry have plenty of backing, we know that. Mayo do too, and Tyrone. But they can't hold a candle to what Dublin have in terms of resources. So any closing of the gap is going to be a 1 off IMO.

Andy Moran predicted last week that Dublin will win about 3 of every 4 all irelands for the foreseeable future and a kerry, mayo etc might hope to catch them once every 4 or 5 years in a 1-off game. That's the reality we're facing. The game is in serious trouble.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 20/12/2020 13:14:24    2324527

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Replying To republicofcloone:  "There should be serious consideration from counties to form a break away competition. I can see that a comp that involved Leitrim, Cavan, Sligo, Fermanagh, Longford, Westmeath, Roscommon and Offaly would have much more meaning to win than a pat on the head tiered cup like what will be in place next year. This could be replicated in other regions of the country.

Food for thought is that Leitrim beat Dublin in a national league game in the mid 90s in Carrick before the cash injection. That's only a generation ago. Now they'd beat us by thirty points probably...if we were lucky."
I can see this happening. Likes of Meath, Laois and Kildare would join as well.

Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1318 - 20/12/2020 13:23:47    2324531

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Replying To Crinigan:  "I can see this happening. Likes of Meath, Laois and Kildare would join as well."
A Meath Cavan final would be the talk of that bordering area for weeks! The neutral venue for such a final would be jammed out. And you don't know how the final would finish, which is what most football fans are longing for these days. I can see this happening quicker than Dublin being split tbh. There's already cups in place at underage level for such counties...or there used to be anyway, Hastings Cup at u16 level.

republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 375 - 20/12/2020 13:44:18    2324549

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Replying To republicofcloone:  "There should be serious consideration from counties to form a break away competition. I can see that a comp that involved Leitrim, Cavan, Sligo, Fermanagh, Longford, Westmeath, Roscommon and Offaly would have much more meaning to win than a pat on the head tiered cup like what will be in place next year. This could be replicated in other regions of the country.

Food for thought is that Leitrim beat Dublin in a national league game in the mid 90s in Carrick before the cash injection. That's only a generation ago. Now they'd beat us by thirty points probably...if we were lucky."
You are for "throwing out the baby with the bathwater"
Surely Kerry etc. etc. would have had big winning margins against Leitrim.
No disrespect to ye. and I agree with cash injections in counties that are in need.
Dublin's dominance is temporary and If I was reffing yesterday they would have lost I believe.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 20/12/2020 13:52:09    2324552

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Was there much celebrating being done in Ranelagh, Dalkey, Foxrock, Cabinteeley, Castleknock, Donnybrook, Malahide and so on and so forth?"
MoM Con O'Callaghan and Mick Fitzsimons are from Dalkey so big celebrations there alright and there are 4 Foxrock-Cabinteely club players on the womens team today. Huge weekend for the area ! I don't know the other areas so well but I'm sure equally delighted. Have a great Christmas !

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 20/12/2020 13:54:00    2324553

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Replying To cavanman47:  "That's an accurate enough post.

But it does highlight the issue.

The first few paragraphs paint a rosy picture, that all is OK and the championship will become competitive again.

But the last paragraph is the grim reality. It will take a semi-professional setup to come anywhere near competing with Dublin. Now Kerry have plenty of backing, we know that. Mayo do too, and Tyrone. But they can't hold a candle to what Dublin have in terms of resources. So any closing of the gap is going to be a 1 off IMO.

Andy Moran predicted last week that Dublin will win about 3 of every 4 all irelands for the foreseeable future and a kerry, mayo etc might hope to catch them once every 4 or 5 years in a 1-off game. That's the reality we're facing. The game is in serious trouble."
So when Kerry were winning in the noughties like that, the game wasn't in serious trouble?

When KK were dominating the hurling, it was because they were just wristy hurlers?

The major issue here is that people don't like Dublin winning. Cutting Dublin's funding etc etc is only a plan to get Kerry and Mayo back in the mix winning again. It does very little to promote GAA in more unsuccessful counties with less resources.

Lets call a spade a spade here. Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal have the resources to fund a team capable of taking on the Dubs. Unfortunately for them, they just don't have the talent to beat the Dubs. All the moaning just highlights the Dubs are supremely talented.

I can tell you right now Pat Spillane and Kevin McStay couldn't give a flying duck about the Clare or LeItrim footballers. They want things changed so their counties can win. As I said above, Pat Spillane didn't care about one sided games or annual cake walks when Kerry were winning in the noughties. They were just super talented and had it "in their blood" etc.

Face up to it, the Dubs are just very good. The teams are just not quite as talented as them at the moment. This will eventually pass. Dublin will lose eventually and someone else will come along.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 20/12/2020 13:57:25    2324554

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Replying To cavanman47:  "That's an accurate enough post.

But it does highlight the issue.

The first few paragraphs paint a rosy picture, that all is OK and the championship will become competitive again.

But the last paragraph is the grim reality. It will take a semi-professional setup to come anywhere near competing with Dublin. Now Kerry have plenty of backing, we know that. Mayo do too, and Tyrone. But they can't hold a candle to what Dublin have in terms of resources. So any closing of the gap is going to be a 1 off IMO.

Andy Moran predicted last week that Dublin will win about 3 of every 4 all irelands for the foreseeable future and a kerry, mayo etc might hope to catch them once every 4 or 5 years in a 1-off game. That's the reality we're facing. The game is in serious trouble."
Your post isn't far from the reality but I think some counties will compete with Dublin more than you mention.

I believe the GAA at administration level are further ahead than most gaels give them credit for. If central council cut every cent of Dublin's funding which obviously won't happen the fact remains Dublin GAA are now a business in it's own right and in many ways have the potential to generate enough revenue to become one of Ireland's most profitable medium sized business's.

Dublin's business sense is now remarkable; they have their own commerical experts and experts in other fields like marketing and communication.

Now how do the GAA react to this; imo splitting the championship as ruthlessly as they've proposed is the start as is splitting the club/inter county season to allow exclusive and guaranteed windows. There aren't 16 second standard counties in the country but by having just 16 playing for Sam and moving in the direction of a split season; they're acknowledging the need to have the counties who can generate significant revenues playing each other more regularly and cutting off the rest.

It is a grim reality as you say; counties aren't silly either, the most progressive one's are looking and catching on to what is coming. Roscommon imo are the perfect example, they're now backed by one of London's most lucative property companies and they seem to have significant backing.

Dublin have brought this semi professional and backing to a whole new level. They somewhat started the commerical potential with Arnotts and Kerry benefited from Kerry group for years but whilst it's now rarely mentioned; the "club tyrone" concept started this semi professional road where funding and county boards are run like a business - Dublin has perfected it.

In 10 years time we will have 6 or 7 semi professional counties at the top of the GAA competing for All Ireland's; what competition model that entails is hard to know at the minute but I think it'll be different and that is the ultimate aim of the GAA to react to this Dublin issue.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 20/12/2020 14:18:41    2324571

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Replying To Htaem:  "I think begrudgery is dying out zinny, what you're starting to see now is apathy.

Even from the Dublin players, I saw McMahon and Murchan interviewed last night, no hysterics after winning 6 in a row, just very composed, professional, Leinster Rugby like interviews from the lads."
Jaysis what did u expect them to do?? Start making love in front of Marty up in the crow's nest??

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 20/12/2020 14:34:59    2324578

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Replying To Crinigan:  "I can see this happening. Likes of Meath, Laois and Kildare would join as well."
It's a option, it would need support of previous well supported counties. Ie Meath and Kildare, Roscommon are well supported as is Cavan.
It's probably the way forward, but it would mean a break from the gaa, what grounds would hold games ? None, we tied into the gaa. They have created this mess by their hundreds of millions pumped into one county. It will take 8 to10 years for it to change. Look at Leinster minor this year. The Leinster final will feature Offaly and Meath. Two former powerhouses, where will either county get the financial support to keep those players in county and involved?? Who will stop them going to Australia or America. Where is the guaranteed jobs ? College places ?? There is none. But Dublin and to a lesser extent Kerry and mayo can hold onto them. This is the problem but it's better to call people begrudgers or sort out ur own county (which I think we have done ). Let's pretend everything is ok. Even in hurling money talks. Can u imagine what other counties could do with the professional financial situation Dublin have ??

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 20/12/2020 14:50:31    2324587

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Replying To suckvalleypaddy:  "You are for "throwing out the baby with the bathwater"
Surely Kerry etc. etc. would have had big winning margins against Leitrim.
No disrespect to ye. and I agree with cash injections in counties that are in need.
Dublin's dominance is temporary and If I was reffing yesterday they would have lost I believe."
Mayo struggled against Leitrim in the first half of the championship game this year. That was when I knew the signs were ominous for Mayo. Their conditioning told out in the second half. It isn't that long since Longford beat Mayo in c'ship and gave both Dublin and Kerry frights. But Longford haven't a hope of winning Leinster. A tiered cup won't help Leitrim or Longford or Sligo either, players will just walk away.

They've been disregarded along with all div 3 and 4 teams as irrelevant now next year.
The bathwater is long filtered into the soil at this stage, and the baby is bawling. But the daddies in Croke Park have their fingers in their ears and saying lalalalalala. Splitting Dublin or indeed completely cutting their funding isn't going to work. It's too late. That's why I think smaller regional comps might be the better options for teams coinciding with increased club games.

republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 375 - 20/12/2020 15:00:46    2324594

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Replying To royaldunne:  "It's a option, it would need support of previous well supported counties. Ie Meath and Kildare, Roscommon are well supported as is Cavan.
It's probably the way forward, but it would mean a break from the gaa, what grounds would hold games ? None, we tied into the gaa. They have created this mess by their hundreds of millions pumped into one county. It will take 8 to10 years for it to change. Look at Leinster minor this year. The Leinster final will feature Offaly and Meath. Two former powerhouses, where will either county get the financial support to keep those players in county and involved?? Who will stop them going to Australia or America. Where is the guaranteed jobs ? College places ?? There is none. But Dublin and to a lesser extent Kerry and mayo can hold onto them. This is the problem but it's better to call people begrudgers or sort out ur own county (which I think we have done ). Let's pretend everything is ok. Even in hurling money talks. Can u imagine what other counties could do with the professional financial situation Dublin have ??"
I have great respect for Meath. But I think your county board has been asleep at the wheel for many years. Navan is a shambles, you expect to play in Croke Park constantly and that breeds a certain laziness. I'm comparing it to my own county which had huge funding drives to create a centre of excellence and improve facilities in Pairc Sean.
And I hope Meath can come back and be the force they were btw.

republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 375 - 20/12/2020 15:10:54    2324601

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Replying To Htaem:  "Very corporate I would say."
Very grown up I would say.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 20/12/2020 15:15:40    2324604

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Replying To cavanman47:  "That's an accurate enough post.

But it does highlight the issue.

The first few paragraphs paint a rosy picture, that all is OK and the championship will become competitive again.

But the last paragraph is the grim reality. It will take a semi-professional setup to come anywhere near competing with Dublin. Now Kerry have plenty of backing, we know that. Mayo do too, and Tyrone. But they can't hold a candle to what Dublin have in terms of resources. So any closing of the gap is going to be a 1 off IMO.

Andy Moran predicted last week that Dublin will win about 3 of every 4 all irelands for the foreseeable future and a kerry, mayo etc might hope to catch them once every 4 or 5 years in a 1-off game. That's the reality we're facing. The game is in serious trouble."
You're assuming of course that Andy is right and for the purpose of your argument you accept it.
Personally , I see Kerry being back winning AI's soon enough and the fact that some more of the bigger names on the Dublin panel are not going to be around in another year or so will see them come back to the other 3/4 teams that can challenge for an AI.
It's the less likely to compete counties that need to be helped to get to this level. How does that happen or don't they matter as long as the prize gets shared among the big boys ?

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 20/12/2020 15:39:41    2324618

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Replying To Ulsterchamps_32:  "Dublin bench strength is crucial. Without the crowd and it being winter it reminded me of some league matches in croke park. Opposition put in a decent performance and put it up to the dubs but dublin s&c and bench strength comes to the fore and sees them through. Imagine howard, basquel and mannion coming on to the mayo team. You'd fancy them then to win if the subs were swapped. Howard had a great second half. Without him dublin had limited options of winning 50/50 balls in the first half. The mayo press on cluxton and their ability to win their own kick outs was as good as they could have hoped for.
This mayo team is not as good as it was a few years ago and ultimately they need another high end forward to compliment O'connor. Maybe in time conroy will get there though it wasn't to be yesterday. And unlike dublin they can't go to their bench. Their defence has been porous to goals but have some fine players though as it with a lot of teams they could do with a defender or two who want to be defenders.
If you take the repetitive of nature of dublin continuing to win yesterday's game was a decent enough final. Dublin really did push on in the second half and kicked some lovely, and hard earned scores. Mayo did not make the most of their dominance in the first half. They did not manage the start if the second half well either, allowing dublin to eat the clock. They should have pushed up more with the spare man. Anyhow fair play to dessie and the dubs. Debates about the rights and wrongs of structures and Dublins dominance is for a different topic."
Mayo already have a high end forward in Darren McHale, unfortunately Horan opted to not to use him.

Box13 (Galway) - Posts: 56 - 20/12/2020 15:47:04    2324622

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Replying To catch22:  "You're assuming of course that Andy is right and for the purpose of your argument you accept it.
Personally , I see Kerry being back winning AI's soon enough and the fact that some more of the bigger names on the Dublin panel are not going to be around in another year or so will see them come back to the other 3/4 teams that can challenge for an AI.
It's the less likely to compete counties that need to be helped to get to this level. How does that happen or don't they matter as long as the prize gets shared among the big boys ?"
People said that about the brogans, Connolly, McMahon, mccaffrey, cian ó Sullivan,, Dublin have arguably improved since they left.
Only kerry and Mayo have put it up to Dublin in the last 6 seasons,, and I would guess that Clifford will go to oz on the next year or two,, hopefully not of course,, while Mayo will see probably lose their core players before the dubs.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1705 - 20/12/2020 15:56:13    2324629

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Replying To JayP:  "So when Kerry were winning in the noughties like that, the game wasn't in serious trouble?

When KK were dominating the hurling, it was because they were just wristy hurlers?

The major issue here is that people don't like Dublin winning. Cutting Dublin's funding etc etc is only a plan to get Kerry and Mayo back in the mix winning again. It does very little to promote GAA in more unsuccessful counties with less resources.

Lets call a spade a spade here. Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal have the resources to fund a team capable of taking on the Dubs. Unfortunately for them, they just don't have the talent to beat the Dubs. All the moaning just highlights the Dubs are supremely talented.

I can tell you right now Pat Spillane and Kevin McStay couldn't give a flying duck about the Clare or LeItrim footballers. They want things changed so their counties can win. As I said above, Pat Spillane didn't care about one sided games or annual cake walks when Kerry were winning in the noughties. They were just super talented and had it "in their blood" etc.

Face up to it, the Dubs are just very good. The teams are just not quite as talented as them at the moment. This will eventually pass. Dublin will lose eventually and someone else will come along."
Kerry were excellent in the 00s. (A far cry from the Kerry who drew with Dublin last year, but that's for the "greatest ever team" argument, not this one).

Tyrone had their measure back then tho.

Why? Because it was 2 excellent teams who were starting from an even footing and reaching a very similar level of excellence.

Today, Dublin are not starting from the same base as the 31 other counties. So a Dublin with their house in order will always have an advantage over the rest.

Kerry fell back into the pack.
Tyrone fell back into the pack.
Kilkenny in hurling fell back into the pack.

But money is ensuring, that so long as Dublin don't completely self sabotage themselves across the board, they will never be allowed to fall back onto an even standing with the rest.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 20/12/2020 16:01:34    2324634

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Kerry were excellent in the 00s. (A far cry from the Kerry who drew with Dublin last year, but that's for the "greatest ever team" argument, not this one).

Tyrone had their measure back then tho.

Why? Because it was 2 excellent teams who were starting from an even footing and reaching a very similar level of excellence.

Today, Dublin are not starting from the same base as the 31 other counties. So a Dublin with their house in order will always have an advantage over the rest.

Kerry fell back into the pack.
Tyrone fell back into the pack.
Kilkenny in hurling fell back into the pack.

But money is ensuring, that so long as Dublin don't completely self sabotage themselves across the board, they will never be allowed to fall back onto an even standing with the rest."
100% nail on the head Cavanman47.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 20/12/2020 16:27:29    2324648

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Replying To avonali:  "Jaysis what did u expect them to do?? Start making love in front of Marty up in the crow's nest??"
Haha well that would have been entertaining at least

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 20/12/2020 16:47:13    2324656

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Replying To JayP:  "So when Kerry were winning in the noughties like that, the game wasn't in serious trouble?

When KK were dominating the hurling, it was because they were just wristy hurlers?

The major issue here is that people don't like Dublin winning. Cutting Dublin's funding etc etc is only a plan to get Kerry and Mayo back in the mix winning again. It does very little to promote GAA in more unsuccessful counties with less resources.

Lets call a spade a spade here. Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal have the resources to fund a team capable of taking on the Dubs. Unfortunately for them, they just don't have the talent to beat the Dubs. All the moaning just highlights the Dubs are supremely talented.

I can tell you right now Pat Spillane and Kevin McStay couldn't give a flying duck about the Clare or LeItrim footballers. They want things changed so their counties can win. As I said above, Pat Spillane didn't care about one sided games or annual cake walks when Kerry were winning in the noughties. They were just super talented and had it "in their blood" etc.

Face up to it, the Dubs are just very good. The teams are just not quite as talented as them at the moment. This will eventually pass. Dublin will lose eventually and someone else will come along."
I agree with you about all the begrudgery against Dublin, I'm fed up of it myself but I take a different view of it than most from outside Dublin it seems, this talk of breaking Dublin up etc it's nonsense in my opinion,
Dublin have a fantastic talented bunch of well coached players and they fully deserve their 6 in a row,
I'd take issue with you though saying about other counties not having the talent to take on Dublin, I believe Donegal have the players capable of beating this Dublin team if things went well for us on the day, so do Kerry and Tyrone are coming strong again, not sure where Galway are at, things didn't go well for them after the long lay off, I think Mayo are really in transition and if Kerry hadn't fluffed their lines against Cork it would have been a Dublin v Kerry final yesterday and you might not have your 6 in a row so handy.
Apart from the funding/population gripes the major advantages Dublin have is of course playing all their games in Croker, someone said Cluxton has played 115 times or something like that for Dublin and 100 of those were in Croke Park, now tell me that's not a massive advantage, if we were paying 80 or 90% of our games in Mac Cumhaill park we'd be winning a lot more of them.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2747 - 20/12/2020 16:55:13    2324660

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Replying To JayP:  "So when Kerry were winning in the noughties like that, the game wasn't in serious trouble?

When KK were dominating the hurling, it was because they were just wristy hurlers?

The major issue here is that people don't like Dublin winning. Cutting Dublin's funding etc etc is only a plan to get Kerry and Mayo back in the mix winning again. It does very little to promote GAA in more unsuccessful counties with less resources.

Lets call a spade a spade here. Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal have the resources to fund a team capable of taking on the Dubs. Unfortunately for them, they just don't have the talent to beat the Dubs. All the moaning just highlights the Dubs are supremely talented.

I can tell you right now Pat Spillane and Kevin McStay couldn't give a flying duck about the Clare or LeItrim footballers. They want things changed so their counties can win. As I said above, Pat Spillane didn't care about one sided games or annual cake walks when Kerry were winning in the noughties. They were just super talented and had it "in their blood" etc.

Face up to it, the Dubs are just very good. The teams are just not quite as talented as them at the moment. This will eventually pass. Dublin will lose eventually and someone else will come along."
Controversial but are the dubs then overrated? Their 6 in a row has been won in one of the worst periods for Gaelic football. For example, every county bar Dubs, Mayo and maybe Clare and Carlow had better teams from 2005 to 2014. The likes of Kerry, Cork, Donegal, Tyrone Meath Kildare Galway had significantly better teams during this period than they have produced recently.

There are big gaps starting to appear throughout the country, not just with Dublin. For example, Meath hit 7.14 in aughrim, which was one of the toughest places to go 10 years ago. The reason for these gaps are differences in standard of training, not talent or skill. This idea that all counties are putting in equal effort is nonsense.

With regards Mayo, they are brilliant to watch a great county but they are so frustrating. Conceding the first goal and scoring 3 points immediately after, sums them up over the last 10 years. Just happened to watch recently the 1996 final the drawn game, that was the worst collapse of them all. They had that game in the bag.

97Cavans (Cavan) - Posts: 317 - 20/12/2020 17:05:42    2324664

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