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Replying To CiarraiMick: "I see your point Jimbo but just to clarify it was 7 out of 9.Kerry lost 5 in a row by late Offaly goal but following year lost v Cork by a last kick goal again but I do agree with your sentiment. Also I agreed with Micko s view as well but that was before 18 final. Dubs had been very lucky to win the previous 2 all Irelands v Mayo but after they beat Tyrone in 18 by 6 points Micko admitted they were a fab team and after last year nó arguement. I also think like yourself there's a panic reaction to it all. It was the same in Micko time. Let's ban the handpass. Kerry are taking over. Same with Kilkenny. People are getting carried away. This is a once in a lifetime special bunch of players and while Dubs will still produce great players(they always have) they might not all come at the same time. I for one not worried about the state of the game. I do think Dúin will win this year handy enough but next year I can see 4 or 5 teams ready to challenge them again. Like Kilkenny and Kerry things will subside a little. They will always be up there but not as dominant." Sorry man of course
Dubs of course won in 1983 haha
But you understood my sentiment anyway so fair play
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 03/12/2020 19:45:48
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Replying To jimbodub: "It's funny though
When Kerry won 4 in a row and lost their 5th in a row by a single point they shrugged off that unfortunate blip and went onto win another 3 in a row...
Kerry were 1pt away from an 8 in a row
Incredible dominance it has to be said and Dublin have yet to eclipse that level of absolute dominace of the Football senior championship
The Sky didn't fall down at the time..
The chances have been there to stop this Dublin team on numerous occasions just like Offaly did to Kerry but they weren't taken. Really substantial opportunities.. squandered.
Dublin have hard earned this current run and the of dominace Kerry enjoyed with their 7 out of 8 hasn't been replicated. Kerry were by far and away the best team and dished out heavy beatings in finals
Sure we even had Micko saying Dublin couldn't be called great until they hammered someone in a final.. that's his own experience of the dominance he reigned over.
You have several Dublin players that are irreplaceable that will soon be calling it a day and at the very least will be moving out of their prime if they hang around but the day is coming.
Yiz just have to be tiny bit more patient
Dublin's dominance is far from unprecedented in terms of collecting titles and if Kerry can win 7 out of 8 without the GAA folding.. sure why can't Dublin?" I'm not sure that 'being a tiny bit more patient' is the appropriate advice Jimbo. Not when each registered player in Dublin receives €270 per head compared with just €21 per head in Mayo or €19 in Kerry. Those figures are alarming for the rest of Ireland. Surely you can at least agree that those figures need urgent restructuring so that other club/county players recieve the same development opportunities that are handed out in Dublin?
I'm not trying to begrudge the trophies that Dublin have lifted in recent years. They've worked hard to achieve them and deserve major credit in doing so. But realistically, the future for other counties who look on at those numbers is bleak to say the least. More players from other counties will really be scratching their heads wondering is it all worth it if thats how they're thought off at HQ for all their efforts. Dublin have had legends like the Brogans, Connolly, Flynn, Bastick, ROC etc retire. They were all seen as irreplaceable at the time. At this stage have they even been slightly missed?
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 03/12/2020 19:46:18
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Replying To SaffronDon: "I'm not sure that 'being a tiny bit more patient' is the appropriate advice Jimbo. Not when each registered player in Dublin receives €270 per head compared with just €21 per head in Mayo or €19 in Kerry. Those figures are alarming for the rest of Ireland. Surely you can at least agree that those figures need urgent restructuring so that other club/county players recieve the same development opportunities that are handed out in Dublin?
I'm not trying to begrudge the trophies that Dublin have lifted in recent years. They've worked hard to achieve them and deserve major credit in doing so. But realistically, the future for other counties who look on at those numbers is bleak to say the least. More players from other counties will really be scratching their heads wondering is it all worth it if thats how they're thought off at HQ for all their efforts. Dublin have had legends like the Brogans, Connolly, Flynn, Bastick, ROC etc retire. They were all seen as irreplaceable at the time. At this stage have they even been slightly missed?" Ah man
I'm not going down that figures road again
I've contributed to that debate and the narrowly skewed interpretation of the figures
There's a lot more to it and I'm not the only one that has highlighted that
There is different streams of revenue available
Your fellow County man Whammo has contributed quite a bit of knowledge on that
I don't want to drum up all those figures again, I'm sick of it
Those numbers you posted above simply don't tell the whole story
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 03/12/2020 19:56:09
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Replying To SaffronDon: "I'm not sure that 'being a tiny bit more patient' is the appropriate advice Jimbo. Not when each registered player in Dublin receives €270 per head compared with just €21 per head in Mayo or €19 in Kerry. Those figures are alarming for the rest of Ireland. Surely you can at least agree that those figures need urgent restructuring so that other club/county players recieve the same development opportunities that are handed out in Dublin?
I'm not trying to begrudge the trophies that Dublin have lifted in recent years. They've worked hard to achieve them and deserve major credit in doing so. But realistically, the future for other counties who look on at those numbers is bleak to say the least. More players from other counties will really be scratching their heads wondering is it all worth it if thats how they're thought off at HQ for all their efforts. Dublin have had legends like the Brogans, Connolly, Flynn, Bastick, ROC etc retire. They were all seen as irreplaceable at the time. At this stage have they even been slightly missed?" In terms of the players
We have never replaced their talent like for like.
Whats been the main driver of the success is adapting a style of play off the back of the Donegal game that no one can match.
Not that long ago.. no one could beat the blanket. Not that long ago it was being described that football was over because of the blanket.
Dublin were the team to sort that.. they beat the blanket and continue to do it, all the while teams still setup that way.. suits Dublin down to the ground.
Teams should have beaten Dublin.. they didn't though
Dublin has been able build on those squandered opportunities, there's a system of play and they've completely bought into it as a collective. We had adequate replacements that fit into the style of play. Are they as talented? Maybe in 1 or 2 cases but overall Dublin are not as talented a team as they were.
They play a style of football that sucks the life out of a team. They retain the ball better than any team in history, they wait, they hold, they stretch, and when it's the right option more often than not they shoot and because of where they are shooting from (thanks to their style of play) that has given Dublin the most prolific conversion rate ever seen.
It's a method, a style of play and it's just repeat, repeat, repeat. No one has fully been able to stop it. Those outside the top 3 or 4 teams have almost all zero chance.
Dublin were able to hold steady because of how they play and absorb the likes of the players you mentioned, but as equally importantly other teams still think it's 2014, we figured out the blanket, now it's up to others to figure out Dublin. . but let's be honest, it was helped by Dublins main rivals not getting any better, they regressed while Dublin was able to hold steady and keep the show on the road.
Although that won't last forever
There's only so long patching up the team will go and we can't always count on others shooting themselves in the foot
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 03/12/2020 20:38:48
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Replying To jimbodub: "Ah man
I'm not going down that figures road again
I've contributed to that debate and the narrowly skewed interpretation of the figures
There's a lot more to it and I'm not the only one that has highlighted that
There is different streams of revenue available
Your fellow County man Whammo has contributed quite a bit of knowledge on that
I don't want to drum up all those figures again, I'm sick of it
Those numbers you posted above simply don't tell the whole story" I'm not going to come on here and pretend I'm an expert at all the ins and outs of that side of the game. But if those figures that McGuinness posted are a reflection of the grass roots development side of things then it certainly doesn't sit right with me. I know money doesn't solve every issue and I dont need to look beyond my own county on how money can be badly wasted at times. But its hard to disagree that Dublin were one of the last counties in Ireland that needed 'rescued' as Sean Kelly put it over 15 years ago.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 03/12/2020 20:41:16
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Replying To SaffronDon: "I'm not going to come on here and pretend I'm an expert at all the ins and outs of that side of the game. But if those figures that McGuinness posted are a reflection of the grass roots development side of things then it certainly doesn't sit right with me. I know money doesn't solve every issue and I dont need to look beyond my own county on how money can be badly wasted at times. But its hard to disagree that Dublin were one of the last counties in Ireland that needed 'rescued' as Sean Kelly put it over 15 years ago." I respect that
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 03/12/2020 21:00:51
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Replying To SaffronDon: "I'm not going to come on here and pretend I'm an expert at all the ins and outs of that side of the game. But if those figures that McGuinness posted are a reflection of the grass roots development side of things then it certainly doesn't sit right with me. I know money doesn't solve every issue and I dont need to look beyond my own county on how money can be badly wasted at times. But its hard to disagree that Dublin were one of the last counties in Ireland that needed 'rescued' as Sean Kelly put it over 15 years ago." It's not so much that Dubs needed rescue. It was more about increasing the interest omong Dublin folk that were leaning towards rugby and soccer in particular. The gaa is a business and the best customers are dubs. They live close to Croke Park the population is huge so let's get them in and fill the place. A successful Dublin team has created unprecedented interest in the capital and that has brought massive revenue to the gaa. However now I think the gaa will backtrack a little because if you look at the small crowds Dublin drew in CP last year for the super 8 s the gaa will have to rethink. Dublin will always have the die hard fans but many did nt go to games that were a seemingly foregone conclusion like super 8s.However when dubs played Mayo (who put a bit of fear into Dublin) we have a full stadium again. The gaa while we're happy to see Dublin up on top or near the top will now probably fear that other counties will star losing interest and if they do that's bad for Dublin too because to fill the big stadia you need teams to be able to compete. However I really think people are thinking too deep into all this.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3678 - 03/12/2020 21:43:43
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "It's not so much that Dubs needed rescue. It was more about increasing the interest omong Dublin folk that were leaning towards rugby and soccer in particular. The gaa is a business and the best customers are dubs. They live close to Croke Park the population is huge so let's get them in and fill the place. A successful Dublin team has created unprecedented interest in the capital and that has brought massive revenue to the gaa. However now I think the gaa will backtrack a little because if you look at the small crowds Dublin drew in CP last year for the super 8 s the gaa will have to rethink. Dublin will always have the die hard fans but many did nt go to games that were a seemingly foregone conclusion like super 8s.However when dubs played Mayo (who put a bit of fear into Dublin) we have a full stadium again. The gaa while we're happy to see Dublin up on top or near the top will now probably fear that other counties will star losing interest and if they do that's bad for Dublin too because to fill the big stadia you need teams to be able to compete. However I really think people are thinking too deep into all this." So what you're really saying mick is its better we don't talk about this.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/12/2020 22:10:16
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "It's not so much that Dubs needed rescue. It was more about increasing the interest omong Dublin folk that were leaning towards rugby and soccer in particular. The gaa is a business and the best customers are dubs. They live close to Croke Park the population is huge so let's get them in and fill the place. A successful Dublin team has created unprecedented interest in the capital and that has brought massive revenue to the gaa. However now I think the gaa will backtrack a little because if you look at the small crowds Dublin drew in CP last year for the super 8 s the gaa will have to rethink. Dublin will always have the die hard fans but many did nt go to games that were a seemingly foregone conclusion like super 8s.However when dubs played Mayo (who put a bit of fear into Dublin) we have a full stadium again. The gaa while we're happy to see Dublin up on top or near the top will now probably fear that other counties will star losing interest and if they do that's bad for Dublin too because to fill the big stadia you need teams to be able to compete. However I really think people are thinking too deep into all this." You think people are thinking too deep into this mick? If people had thought more about this it might never have happened in the first place.
What you're really saying is let's not talk about this.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 04/12/2020 07:48:49
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "You think people are thinking too deep into this mick? If people had thought more about this it might never have happened in the first place.
What you're really saying is let's not talk about this." I'm not saying it should nt be discussed but it's getting tiresome. Sure most agree it's wrong Kboy. The distribution of gaa funding is wrong. Dublin's constant use of Croke Park is wrong. But once again I will explain. Its the gaa decided on the money and even if Dublin got eff all they have big sponsors like ourselves. In fact we have huge sponsors so while money makes a difference between Dublin and Carlow for instance it does nt make an iota of a difference between Kerry and Dublin or Cork for that matter. Dublin should should play some away games and having 2 games in the super 8s in Croker was wrong but and this is a big But. There was a vote on this after Donegal rightly complained and the result was let the dubs play in Croke Park and while Donegal Mayo and Roscommon voted to keep dubs out Kerry were one of the counties to vote with Dublin to let them play as many games as possible in Croke Park. Now I know this for a fact Kboy.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3678 - 04/12/2020 10:32:00
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "I'm not saying it should nt be discussed but it's getting tiresome. Sure most agree it's wrong Kboy. The distribution of gaa funding is wrong. Dublin's constant use of Croke Park is wrong. But once again I will explain. Its the gaa decided on the money and even if Dublin got eff all they have big sponsors like ourselves. In fact we have huge sponsors so while money makes a difference between Dublin and Carlow for instance it does nt make an iota of a difference between Kerry and Dublin or Cork for that matter. Dublin should should play some away games and having 2 games in the super 8s in Croker was wrong but and this is a big But. There was a vote on this after Donegal rightly complained and the result was let the dubs play in Croke Park and while Donegal Mayo and Roscommon voted to keep dubs out Kerry were one of the counties to vote with Dublin to let them play as many games as possible in Croke Park. Now I know this for a fact Kboy." It is tiresome and I'd rather be talking about other stuff but this doesn't seem to be going away any time soon, but dublin getting €270 per head and kerry €19 a head is wrong mick, there is no fairness in that and we're supposed to catch up to dublin?
Why after all these years have the gaa never come out and explained the money situation?
Hopefully when dublin John is gone the new gaa president might finally address the issue.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 04/12/2020 11:10:33
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "It is tiresome and I'd rather be talking about other stuff but this doesn't seem to be going away any time soon, but dublin getting €270 per head and kerry €19 a head is wrong mick, there is no fairness in that and we're supposed to catch up to dublin?
Why after all these years have the gaa never come out and explained the money situation?
Hopefully when dublin John is gone the new gaa president might finally address the issue." Why do you not include total monies given to counties and only Games Development? The GAA pre-COVID were giving out 40M€ so how much were Dublin getting??? Far less than 5% so tell me they only generate less than 5% of total revenues.
Issues you actualyl have it that this money was wisely invested in structures and we see the return.
Also the costs of a Club in Dublin are hugely different to the country.
Do you actualyl know how many Clubs in Dublin have not got their own pitch???? And how much renting costs????? Just as an exmaple
witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 04/12/2020 12:04:55
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Replying To jimbodub: "In terms of the players
We have never replaced their talent like for like.
Whats been the main driver of the success is adapting a style of play off the back of the Donegal game that no one can match.
Not that long ago.. no one could beat the blanket. Not that long ago it was being described that football was over because of the blanket.
Dublin were the team to sort that.. they beat the blanket and continue to do it, all the while teams still setup that way.. suits Dublin down to the ground.
Teams should have beaten Dublin.. they didn't though
Dublin has been able build on those squandered opportunities, there's a system of play and they've completely bought into it as a collective. We had adequate replacements that fit into the style of play. Are they as talented? Maybe in 1 or 2 cases but overall Dublin are not as talented a team as they were.
They play a style of football that sucks the life out of a team. They retain the ball better than any team in history, they wait, they hold, they stretch, and when it's the right option more often than not they shoot and because of where they are shooting from (thanks to their style of play) that has given Dublin the most prolific conversion rate ever seen.
It's a method, a style of play and it's just repeat, repeat, repeat. No one has fully been able to stop it. Those outside the top 3 or 4 teams have almost all zero chance.
Dublin were able to hold steady because of how they play and absorb the likes of the players you mentioned, but as equally importantly other teams still think it's 2014, we figured out the blanket, now it's up to others to figure out Dublin. . but let's be honest, it was helped by Dublins main rivals not getting any better, they regressed while Dublin was able to hold steady and keep the show on the road.
Although that won't last forever
There's only so long patching up the team will go and we can't always count on others shooting themselves in the foot" Well said Jimbo.
And your right. Only so long patching up the team will go. During KKs dominance they did the same. They would lose a few goats through retirements and then would replace them with less talented players over the course of a couple of years, albeit still great players. But certainly they were not replacing like for like as you say, but their dominance still continued, because as a collective, they were still the team to beat.
I remember thinking will this ever end? Is this good for hurling? This has to stop for the good of the game!! You became so accustomed to KKs dominance for over a decade that you just presumed it was always gonna be like that. But, like every great team, their dominance eventually came to an end.
And that is what will happen this Dublin team. People wont believe its gonna end until it does.
I don't think people will fully appreciate how good this Dublin team have been until the dominance ends.
When KK were at the peak of their dominance, i personally didn't enjoy it. I was so fed up of their dominance that i would passionately cheer on whoever they played and couldn't appreciate just how good they were.
Its only now, i look back at that KK team and appreciate just how good they were. The Greatest Hurling Team of All Time!
ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 04/12/2020 12:30:00
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "It is tiresome and I'd rather be talking about other stuff but this doesn't seem to be going away any time soon, but dublin getting €270 per head and kerry €19 a head is wrong mick, there is no fairness in that and we're supposed to catch up to dublin?
Why after all these years have the gaa never come out and explained the money situation?
Hopefully when dublin John is gone the new gaa president might finally address the issue." Those figures are old hat, I saw an article in balls.ie word for word if you google the content it was originally written in 2015!!!! If Kerry want more money just get more players its a simple mathematical equation. If Dublin has 30% of the population of Ireland, if we have 30% of total GAA participation (which we don't I think its 20%) they are the facts of life. Dublin GAA is big business a club like Ballyboden or Na Fianna are the size of a small town. For an Adult player the average membership is €250+, Juvenile €155+, Mentor/Coach €130 these are figures more or less across the the City. If I look at some of the clubs in Kerry the membership fee wouldn't get you a decent meal.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4898 - 04/12/2020 12:52:08
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Replying To ConnollyDub: "Well said Jimbo.
And your right. Only so long patching up the team will go. During KKs dominance they did the same. They would lose a few goats through retirements and then would replace them with less talented players over the course of a couple of years, albeit still great players. But certainly they were not replacing like for like as you say, but their dominance still continued, because as a collective, they were still the team to beat.
I remember thinking will this ever end? Is this good for hurling? This has to stop for the good of the game!! You became so accustomed to KKs dominance for over a decade that you just presumed it was always gonna be like that. But, like every great team, their dominance eventually came to an end.
And that is what will happen this Dublin team. People wont believe its gonna end until it does.
I don't think people will fully appreciate how good this Dublin team have been until the dominance ends.
When KK were at the peak of their dominance, i personally didn't enjoy it. I was so fed up of their dominance that i would passionately cheer on whoever they played and couldn't appreciate just how good they were.
Its only now, i look back at that KK team and appreciate just how good they were. The Greatest Hurling Team of All Time!" You are probably right Connolly. Winning can breed contempt and while most people know how great this Dúin team are they are they slow to admit it due to their dominance. It was same with Kerry years ago and the Cats and like that when it's over people finally realise how good they really were and then admit to same. Most neutrals can't wait to see them downed but I guess that's normal. We all love the underdog but when they win they lose love too.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3678 - 04/12/2020 13:06:00
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Replying To ConnollyDub: "Well said Jimbo.
And your right. Only so long patching up the team will go. During KKs dominance they did the same. They would lose a few goats through retirements and then would replace them with less talented players over the course of a couple of years, albeit still great players. But certainly they were not replacing like for like as you say, but their dominance still continued, because as a collective, they were still the team to beat.
I remember thinking will this ever end? Is this good for hurling? This has to stop for the good of the game!! You became so accustomed to KKs dominance for over a decade that you just presumed it was always gonna be like that. But, like every great team, their dominance eventually came to an end.
And that is what will happen this Dublin team. People wont believe its gonna end until it does.
I don't think people will fully appreciate how good this Dublin team have been until the dominance ends.
When KK were at the peak of their dominance, i personally didn't enjoy it. I was so fed up of their dominance that i would passionately cheer on whoever they played and couldn't appreciate just how good they were.
Its only now, i look back at that KK team and appreciate just how good they were. The Greatest Hurling Team of All Time!" Croke Park will always be in Dublin
So that natural advantage will always be in place
It wasn't much of an advantage between 1996-2010 though
But that mirrored one of the worst periods in Dublin GAA history. It was up there as the worst period for not being capable of even reaching a final.
I think a lot of people became accustomed to that too from outside Dublin and they enjoyed it but the reality is that was not the norm whatsoever. It was an abnormal period given what had been achieved
But it wasn't going to last. Dublin reached multiple finals across the 70's, 80's and 90's
Then a very poor period came about as we all know.
But all the while Alan Brogan, Bernard, Diarmuid, P Flynn etc etc etc etc were sitting on as young Dublin club players wanting to change that. They were use to watching Dublin reach finals and win their share.
I could name 20+ Dublin players that the GDF had zero impact on, that all this success now seen was built on. We'd have won nothing without them, so GDF has little relevance to the rise of Dublin in 2010
We have always produced top end footballers so it's not surprising to see Dublin being able to bring in players to keep the show on the road.
But again
Dublin have pretry much invented a new style of football, new tactics to counter the blanket and it's become massively successful.
Yet what's the best most teams can offer? They are still stuck in 2014
No one can really match it at all, it's on par if not greater than the impact the blanket had on football. Not so long ago no one could figure out how to beat that.. the sky was falling down!
Dublin did. They have that style of play ingrained into their DNA at this stage. Tried, tested and perfected with 100% collective buy-in. They are mentality monsters.
Probably the most advanced system of play ever seen in football. The stats back up that claim.
Dublin despite losing so many legend status players have been able to absorb those loses, because our style of football is more advanced and they are further down the road
It's undoubtedly also helped that our main rivals have digressed in the same period. You won't see Dublin fast tracking minors etc. And expecting instant success.
So Dublin will stick to their guns and it's up to someone to beat them..
Dublin got over the blanket wall and once they climbed it they've not looked back.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 04/12/2020 13:09:33
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Replying To arock: "Those figures are old hat, I saw an article in balls.ie word for word if you google the content it was originally written in 2015!!!! If Kerry want more money just get more players its a simple mathematical equation. If Dublin has 30% of the population of Ireland, if we have 30% of total GAA participation (which we don't I think its 20%) they are the facts of life. Dublin GAA is big business a club like Ballyboden or Na Fianna are the size of a small town. For an Adult player the average membership is €250+, Juvenile €155+, Mentor/Coach €130 these are figures more or less across the the City. If I look at some of the clubs in Kerry the membership fee wouldn't get you a decent meal." It's the same Ewan McKenna rubbish thats been completely debunked
It's a very narrow skewing way of looking at it while ignoring an awful lot more that's readily available
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 04/12/2020 13:16:41
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "It is tiresome and I'd rather be talking about other stuff but this doesn't seem to be going away any time soon, but dublin getting €270 per head and kerry €19 a head is wrong mick, there is no fairness in that and we're supposed to catch up to dublin?
Why after all these years have the gaa never come out and explained the money situation?
Hopefully when dublin John is gone the new gaa president might finally address the issue." You would rather be talking about other stuff !! Pull the other one
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 04/12/2020 13:30:23
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "You are probably right Connolly. Winning can breed contempt and while most people know how great this Dúin team are they are they slow to admit it due to their dominance. It was same with Kerry years ago and the Cats and like that when it's over people finally realise how good they really were and then admit to same. Most neutrals can't wait to see them downed but I guess that's normal. We all love the underdog but when they win they lose love too." Ain't that the truth Mick :-D.
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 04/12/2020 13:35:34
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Where did I mention anything about civil war?" Just seen this , here you go -:)
Great thats all we need now is a civil war Mick it didn't work out too well for Cork from what I remember.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11831 - 27/11/2020 10:14:09
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 04/12/2020 13:36:09
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