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Replying To lilylanger: "Are the figures quoted for school age boys and girls like Gilroy said or are they per registered player. If they are per registered player why is Dublins numbers so low?" Per registered player, I think you will find in Dublin its a bit of a lottery if you go to school that plays GAA, very little playing faciliites in a lot of schools and the ethos of the school might not favour GAA. For example for girls on Southside (and you do get exceptions) you get hockey, hard to find hockey on Northside it will be camogie. Ladies football is huge as is gaelic football with boys in fact Southside goirls 2nd level schools are likely to play hockey and Gaelic football rather than Camogie. And of course you have the huge rivalry with Rugby and Soccer. The biggest problem in Dublin I see is some clubs are lucky to have a load of schools in catchment area other clubs do not. GPO in our club goes into boys/girls schools and sets up coaching regimes, with invites to local club nursery/underage. It is very successful but clubs around us are struggling. I think Mens Gaelic football is masking a lot.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4898 - 07/12/2020 19:15:05
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Replying To joeteor: "Do these figures include GAA grants?" Nope we've transferred half ours to our Barbados tax free front company, then buried the other half in the foothills of the Dublin mountains. For fairness we're planning a treasure hunt amongst the Leinster counties, to finally grant the wish to have an equal competition without Dublin involved.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 07/12/2020 22:45:44
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I read Andy morans on the whole thing and I think one thing that most of us posters haven't made clear that Andy did is that we think it's an issue with the GAA not with Dublin
A board should never have been set up by Sean kelly to rescue a team that didnt need rescuing. Dublin shouldnt have been deemed more worthy of funding than anyone else because they werent struggling. The poster who called the 00s the dark days of Dublin football need to get a grip.
Dublin didnt ask for the extra help and no one blames them for using every penney received so wisely. We just want all counties to be treated fairly and struggling counties.be given the extra help. All of the blame for this lies.with the GAA and sean kelly.
I absolutely think the dubs would have one an all ireland or 2 with the talent they have but I dont think they would have 10 leinster championships and be going for 6 in a row. We will never know though
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1678 - 09/12/2020 12:13:30
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As mentioned several times on this thread, I dont think the Sunday Game 'debate' was helpful to either side of the argument... poor host, poor contribution from 1 side and outdated figures from 2015....
Have a lot of time for Pat Gilroy and what he brought to the Dublin set up a few years ago....thought the figure he gave of 39,000 registered members in Dublin was astonishing !! Out of a potential 1.3 million ??...Does anyone know if thats accurate ?
If it is, then is it either a shocking misspend of €18-20 million since 2007 to only secure 39k members OR have the GDOs been concentrating on the actual registered club Juvenile members too much rather than growing the base OR do we need to actually double or treble the investment in Dublin to grow the numbers sufficiently ??... by the way, I agree that its important to have a big GAA community in Dublin, as its a huge percentage of our population...have to remove the Senior Ladies and Mens success from this conversation about growing the amount of members playing our National games.
As an aside...Cork, Antrim and Down all have a population of approx half a million each...should we be funding them all by approx €7/8 million each over next 10 years to grow their memberships or do we need a much bigger sum than that to help them grow enough as shown by the Dublin figures above ?
Black+Blue (Galway) - Posts: 122 - 09/12/2020 16:21:51
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Replying To galwayfball: "I read Andy morans on the whole thing and I think one thing that most of us posters haven't made clear that Andy did is that we think it's an issue with the GAA not with Dublin
A board should never have been set up by Sean kelly to rescue a team that didnt need rescuing. Dublin shouldnt have been deemed more worthy of funding than anyone else because they werent struggling. The poster who called the 00s the dark days of Dublin football need to get a grip.
Dublin didnt ask for the extra help and no one blames them for using every penney received so wisely. We just want all counties to be treated fairly and struggling counties.be given the extra help. All of the blame for this lies.with the GAA and sean kelly.
I absolutely think the dubs would have one an all ireland or 2 with the talent they have but I dont think they would have 10 leinster championships and be going for 6 in a row. We will never know though" The funding was not for the Dublin team or anything to do with intercounty teams at all. It was to get kids playing GAA sports as rugby and soccer were growing massively in Dublin. It was invested in coaches going into schools and getting kids playing the games.
The GAA can be criticised for a lot of things but getting loads more kids playing hurling and garlic football surely can't be one of them.
The County and Provisional structures are hopelessly outdated but the GAA will never be wrong in encouraging kids to play GAA.
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 09/12/2020 16:29:14
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Replying To Black+Blue: "As mentioned several times on this thread, I dont think the Sunday Game 'debate' was helpful to either side of the argument... poor host, poor contribution from 1 side and outdated figures from 2015....
Have a lot of time for Pat Gilroy and what he brought to the Dublin set up a few years ago....thought the figure he gave of 39,000 registered members in Dublin was astonishing !! Out of a potential 1.3 million ??...Does anyone know if thats accurate ?
If it is, then is it either a shocking misspend of €18-20 million since 2007 to only secure 39k members OR have the GDOs been concentrating on the actual registered club Juvenile members too much rather than growing the base OR do we need to actually double or treble the investment in Dublin to grow the numbers sufficiently ??... by the way, I agree that its important to have a big GAA community in Dublin, as its a huge percentage of our population...have to remove the Senior Ladies and Mens success from this conversation about growing the amount of members playing our National games.
As an aside...Cork, Antrim and Down all have a population of approx half a million each...should we be funding them all by approx €7/8 million each over next 10 years to grow their memberships or do we need a much bigger sum than that to help them grow enough as shown by the Dublin figures above ?" 39k is a 2016 figure based on a Thesis by Shane Mangan done in Tallaght IT. i think there has been a slight increase since to somewhere between 40-45k.
I've been saying for a couple of years, the effectiveness of the GDF needs to be looked into. Its a lot of money and it needs to increase participation. The ratio of 40k to 1.4 mill isn't great.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 09/12/2020 16:31:24
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Replying To bad.monkey: "The funding was not for the Dublin team or anything to do with intercounty teams at all. It was to get kids playing GAA sports as rugby and soccer were growing massively in Dublin. It was invested in coaches going into schools and getting kids playing the games.
The GAA can be criticised for a lot of things but getting loads more kids playing hurling and garlic football surely can't be one of them.
The County and Provisional structures are hopelessly outdated but the GAA will never be wrong in encouraging kids to play GAA." Only Dublin kids though.
Do you really think that only dublin kids were being lost to rugby and soccer
Galway has that problem . I imagine Cork and limerick too but only one county was deemed worthy.
I imagine kildare and meath are struggling keeping kids interested in the GAA too but the same help is not being offered
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1678 - 09/12/2020 16:48:00
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Replying To TheUsername: "39k is a 2016 figure based on a Thesis by Shane Mangan done in Tallaght IT. i think there has been a slight increase since to somewhere between 40-45k.
I've been saying for a couple of years, the effectiveness of the GDF needs to be looked into. Its a lot of money and it needs to increase participation. The ratio of 40k to 1.4 mill isn't great." It certainly dosent appear to be hugely effective return Username ( especially if the Clubs are adding another 50% to the cost of the GDOs )...even at 45k members its a very low figure... maybe we all need to look at it and see if a different approach is needed in order to attract more Juvenile members and promote GAA...?? .especially now as there is such huge clamour to spend multiples of millions on other counties ( inc. here in Galway as we still need more bodies in the schools here ).
Black+Blue (Galway) - Posts: 122 - 09/12/2020 16:48:14
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Replying To Black+Blue: "It certainly dosent appear to be hugely effective return Username ( especially if the Clubs are adding another 50% to the cost of the GDOs )...even at 45k members its a very low figure... maybe we all need to look at it and see if a different approach is needed in order to attract more Juvenile members and promote GAA...?? .especially now as there is such huge clamour to spend multiples of millions on other counties ( inc. here in Galway as we still need more bodies in the schools here )." I tend to agree, Black + Blue i think the effectiveness needs to be looked at certainly. Its a double edged sword for us really i think 39k-40k participation keeps us honest and compatible to other counties if it increased to say double that there would be a strong argument to a split it id acknowledge in that scenario - not that i would like and would kill GAA in Dublin but i think there would be an argument then. As others have said i think any increase in participation has been with mainly with females which is wonderful.
I think the cutting edge of driving the standards up has been at Club level myself and that part of the equation. Its made the club scene up here massively competitive, almost County Championship pitch and to compete the standard is at a very high level, that then feeds into county. The Dublin Championship is a joy at the moment.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 09/12/2020 17:42:59
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Replying To Black+Blue: "It certainly dosent appear to be hugely effective return Username ( especially if the Clubs are adding another 50% to the cost of the GDOs )...even at 45k members its a very low figure... maybe we all need to look at it and see if a different approach is needed in order to attract more Juvenile members and promote GAA...?? .especially now as there is such huge clamour to spend multiples of millions on other counties ( inc. here in Galway as we still need more bodies in the schools here )." The clubs funding 50% is probably where to start. It is basically a rule to make the richer better. It is akin to how education worked 60 years ago, where only those who could afford it could go on to education.
A simple ideal of giving every child the same chance to play their games would be a far superior idea. Pool the money from the clubs and provide coaches from that, for everyone.
HardCase (USA) - Posts: 64 - 09/12/2020 18:33:05
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Replying To HardCase: "The clubs funding 50% is probably where to start. It is basically a rule to make the richer better. It is akin to how education worked 60 years ago, where only those who could afford it could go on to education.
A simple ideal of giving every child the same chance to play their games would be a far superior idea. Pool the money from the clubs and provide coaches from that, for everyone." Exactly asking some clubs to match 50% is impossible for some to raise a decent amount and I come from a club where if I'm honest we would be able to match funding. Big parish and population is growing but our nearest neighbours have a tiny population and are already punching well above their weight as it is thanks to some seriously dedicated club members and would not be able to ever match us in terms of what they could raise but people are happy to turn around and say those kids aren't as entitled as our kids. It's not on, that's not what the GAA should encourage
I'd happily donate to a larger pool if I had the confidence the money was well spent but I'm sure I'm not alone in not trusting our county board to fully utilise that money
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1678 - 10/12/2020 12:58:31
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Where are all these great volunteers that Jim Gavin banged on about for years? Why don't they go into the schools and then Dublin wouldn't need so much much unfair funding.
I also dont get the point if the gaa didnt go into schools other sports would, so what this unfair advantage the gaa are giving Dublin is completely ruining the game. Dublin have a big enough population enough kids would stick at gaa to field
sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1145 - 10/12/2020 13:19:37
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Replying To bad.monkey: "The funding was not for the Dublin team or anything to do with intercounty teams at all. It was to get kids playing GAA sports as rugby and soccer were growing massively in Dublin. It was invested in coaches going into schools and getting kids playing the games.
The GAA can be criticised for a lot of things but getting loads more kids playing hurling and garlic football surely can't be one of them.
The County and Provisional structures are hopelessly outdated but the GAA will never be wrong in encouraging kids to play GAA." The county structures arent outdated though. Dublin has just been artificially forced out of kilter with them. They were working great in the 2 decades previous with a host of different teams winning and making finals etc - Dublin included. There is no reason to suggest that, if the issue created with dublin was resolved, and a couple of outliers like leitrim etc were offered an option of an amalgamation, then the thing wouldnt work really well again.
Dublin fans seem hell-bent on shoe-horning the county structures out the door, but it is only a feint to discourage people from wanting to split dublin. I get the impression that people are tired of these feints though and they are only serving to steel people's desire for action to be taken. If someone from kerry makes a point the response is split kerry, Same with donegal, mayo etc etc. There is a touch of the trumps about it.
The truth of the matter is, if a group of objective advisors were brought in to direct the gaa, the first thing they would advise would be to pay the players in some way, the second would be to split dublin into more than one team, the third would probably be to discontinue the relationship between the gpa and the gaa.
HardCase (USA) - Posts: 64 - 10/12/2020 13:42:44
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Is the quest to make a few counties more competitive by splitting Dublin ? Are the fortunes of 28 counties going to improve ? Like will Kilkenny come back in and win the Leinster Championship ? Ig this is the plan to resurrect football then it is truly dying or dead.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2665 - 10/12/2020 14:18:43
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Replying To Canuck: "Is the quest to make a few counties more competitive by splitting Dublin ? Are the fortunes of 28 counties going to improve ? Like will Kilkenny come back in and win the Leinster Championship ? Ig this is the plan to resurrect football then it is truly dying or dead." Id imagine it is part of a plan. Like you could pump resources into kilkenny in isolation and the same argument can be made. I dont understand this thing where people want one silver bullet to solve all the ills of the game or the thing is no good. They are two different issues that need to be managed on their own merits.
HardCase (USA) - Posts: 64 - 10/12/2020 14:38:55
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Replying To Canuck: "Is the quest to make a few counties more competitive by splitting Dublin ? Are the fortunes of 28 counties going to improve ? Like will Kilkenny come back in and win the Leinster Championship ? Ig this is the plan to resurrect football then it is truly dying or dead." So whats your idea or ideas.
Royal.Legend (Meath) - Posts: 666 - 10/12/2020 14:39:45
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Replying To bad.monkey: "The funding was not for the Dublin team or anything to do with intercounty teams at all. It was to get kids playing GAA sports as rugby and soccer were growing massively in Dublin. It was invested in coaches going into schools and getting kids playing the games.
The GAA can be criticised for a lot of things but getting loads more kids playing hurling and garlic football surely can't be one of them.
The County and Provisional structures are hopelessly outdated but the GAA will never be wrong in encouraging kids to play GAA." No nothing wrong with getting more kids to play GAA. That's not the issue. But why favour one counties kids over another ? I think that's where the whole unfair bit kicks in.
bobkarlgees (Meath) - Posts: 1263 - 10/12/2020 19:20:31
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Replying To bobkarlgees: "No nothing wrong with getting more kids to play GAA. That's not the issue. But why favour one counties kids over another ? I think that's where the whole unfair bit kicks in." This is where the GAA need to set a standard I think. Equality and epuity are two different things.
Andy said on the Sunday Game that there was 50 full time GDO/GDA/GPOs in Meath.
There are 80 in Dublin.
That's seems very fair to me given the population 195k Vs 1.45 million.
I'd accept the East Leinster project might take a few years to bear fruit.
I'm also not so sure the Dublin model, is cost effective, participation rates haven't jumped hugely in Dublin, so I think it's fair there is a review of a better way of doing it to increase participation. That is important, there is a very real danger Dublin success isn't about money, personally I don't think it is, Dublin always had massive potential that went undeveloped by poor political stuff and a lack of recognition. There is a real danger that if the GAA throw money at this with a GDF lense it's good money after bad, as I said I'm not sure it's the GDF piece is the smoking gun of the Senior footballers success. I actually think we can do it better.
Elsewise there is a real risk I think to an East Vs West divide in the coming years, with the pumping of funds into Leinster and the rapid West to East migration, Leinster could really begin to dominate the All Ireland series in a few years. If you accept these facets enabled, the red flags are there for East, dominating the West in years ahead with the finance and population growth.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 10/12/2020 19:49:36
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Replying To bobkarlgees: "No nothing wrong with getting more kids to play GAA. That's not the issue. But why favour one counties kids over another ? I think that's where the whole unfair bit kicks in." Very true,, let's not assume that Dublin is the only county where the GAA is facing stuff competition from other games for kids attention.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1721 - 10/12/2020 19:59:26
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Lads you have to look at the numbers - not the Money numbers but the player numbers here. The reality of the situation is this. The number of adult players playing football in dublin is - I'm guessing - at least twice what it is in any other county and probably 3 or 4 times most of the top counties and possibly 10 times the likes of Carlow or Leitrim (no offence to those counties). I have no issue with the amount of money Dublin gets from GAA in development and Coaching grants because per capita it probably equates to what other counties get. But my point is that if Dublin football continues to have at least twice the amount of adult players funneling into their team then there is no end in sight for their domination. What they have is a conveyer belt of talent that is relentless. 3 or four new players fit in effortlessly to their team each year. I'm sure the average age of the Dublin team now is still only 25/6 and if you take cluxton out its probably 24. The All Ireland Senior football championship is not a competition as it stands. And a continuation of this dominance serves no purpose.
Regarding the Dubs non-dominance in hurling - 2 simple reasons here. 1. Football is the main sport - Dublin do not have the same advantage in terms of the number of adults playing the game that they do in football. 2. There's probably 5 or six of the football panel that could play intercounty Hurling if they weren't playing football.
In summary - all about the numbers. Not the money
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 50 - 07/12/2020 11:36:46Dublin have got everything in order and will dominate for the forseeable future but they have always been one of the dominant teams. What can you do about it?
Reducing the funding for development hurts GAA long term as so many kids wont get as much access to the sport.
Debates, be they nation or otherwise on this issue are completely pointless, people's views are too steeped in bias and nobody is going to change their mind based on a ten minute live debate on TV, a prime time special, an article in the paper or anything else of that nature. Last night was a shambles, McEntee looked terrified and Gilroy came across as terribly rude and arrogant. Some of the stuff he was saying was just bizarre, likening being born in Leitrim to racism for example, I mean WTF? Is this really the best RTÉ can do?
I have said for a long time that what is needed before any changes are brought forward is a rigorous independent (ie not commissioned by GAA) review of GAA funding and distribution, with recommendations on how to support counties to improve participation and performance. Everything should be looked at in the terms of reference, from Games Development, Coaching and S & C, Commercial Revenue, Capital Expenditure planning etc. Centralise programmes if necessary, look at how resources might be shared etc. A cold hard look from every angle is what is needed, and it should be carried out by an expert independent working group with a chair that is absolutely beyond reproach. A whitewash report would be useless and a waste of everyone's time.
There is too much misinformation, misdirection and emotion in the debate and it has been going around in circles for as long as we can all remember. Certain counties are being left behind and players are being lost to the game while the GAA dithers. Nobody has all the facts in any sort of useful format, not even the GAA, and anybody telling you they have is not worth listening to quite frankly.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1998 - 07/12/2020 12:24:58 excellent post one of best in the thread.
Have a lot of time for Pat Gilroy and what he brought to the Dublin set up a few years ago....thought the figure he gave of 39,000 registered members in Dublin was astonishing !! Out of a potential 1.3 million ??...Does anyone know if thats accurate ?
If it is, then is it either a shocking misspend of €18-20 million since 2007 to only secure 39k members OR have the GDOs been concentrating on the actual registered club Juvenile members too much rather than growing the base OR do we need to actually double or treble the investment in Dublin to grow the numbers sufficiently ??... by the way, I agree that its important to have a big GAA community in Dublin, as its a huge percentage of our population...have to remove the Senior Ladies and Mens success from this conversation about growing the amount of members playing our National games.
As an aside...Cork, Antrim and Down all have a population of approx half a million each...should we be funding them all by approx €7/8 million each over next 10 years to grow their memberships or do we need a much bigger sum than that to help them grow enough as shown by the Dublin figures above ?
Black+Blue (Galway) - Posts: 12 - 09/12/2020 16:21:51Is that figure really that surprising? How many registered gaa members etc wouldnt be listed as dubs but living in dublin and playing elsewhere in country?
Antrim and Down have huge percentage of people who wont play GAA for very obvious reasons and Corks membership is extremely high already so how much more does it need to grow at the lower levels?
Exactly asking some clubs to match 50% is impossible for some to raise a decent amount and I come from a club where if I'm honest we would be able to match funding. Big parish and population is growing but our nearest neighbours have a tiny population and are already punching well above their weight as it is thanks to some seriously dedicated club members and would not be able to ever match us in terms of what they could raise but people are happy to turn around and say those kids aren't as entitled as our kids. It's not on, that's not what the GAA should encourage
I'd happily donate to a larger pool if I had the confidence the money was well spent but I'm sure I'm not alone in not trusting our county board to fully utilise that money
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1246 - 10/12/2020 12:58:31 would it?
Some clubs could combine. If many rugby clubs can afford to do to pay for development officer wage on their own with much smaller membership bases in cases then most GAA clubs can afford to pay 25%/50% of a GDOs salary.
The county structures arent outdated though. Dublin has just been artificially forced out of kilter with them. They were working great in the 2 decades previous with a host of different teams winning and making finals etc - Dublin included. There is no reason to suggest that, if the issue created with dublin was resolved, and a couple of outliers like leitrim etc were offered an option of an amalgamation, then the thing wouldnt work really well again.
Dublin fans seem hell-bent on shoe-horning the county structures out the door, but it is only a feint to discourage people from wanting to split dublin. I get the impression that people are tired of these feints though and they are only serving to steel people's desire for action to be taken. If someone from kerry makes a point the response is split kerry, Same with donegal, mayo etc etc. There is a touch of the trumps about it.
The truth of the matter is, if a group of objective advisors were brought in to direct the gaa, the first thing they would advise would be to pay the players in some way, the second would be to split dublin into more than one team, the third would probably be to discontinue the relationship between the gpa and the gaa.
HardCase (USA) - Posts: 37 - 10/12/2020 13:42:44The county structures are far from outdated. They are the structure thats always been in place above club level. A group of advisors wouldnt at same time say pay players while also removing the organisation that gives them a loud voice to express concerns of majority of players. Name any sport that pays players that doesnt have a representative group that works on behalf of the players??
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3512 - 10/12/2020 21:19:44
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