National Forum

Future Of Leinster Championship

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Dublin got their act together 20 years ago and developed the blueprint and secured the funding for the development of our games in Dublin. This was at a time when Leinster rugby was on the rise and a potential serious challenge for the future growth of the GAA in Dublin.

At the time the Senior team were a bit of a laughing stock, remember how everyone laughed at the Blue Book, the linking arms and marching to the Hill, the 'startled earwigs' against Kerry in 2009, the hammering from Tyrone in 2008, Dublin not being able to beat anyone outside of Leinster.

All this time the Dublin County Board were laying the foundations to turn around Dublin's fortunes. They were going into schools and getting the underage structures in place that are paying dividends now. They had the foresight back then to recognise there was a problem and put a long term plan in place to secure the future of Dublin GAA, which is stronger than ever.

All this talk of throwing in the towel is ridiculous and short-sighted. The only way forward is for a national plan to implement similar underage structures which some counties are now starting to do, Tipperary being a good example of what can be achieved here.

As for the championship, there has always been an imbalance be it population sizes or number of counties in provinces, some teams having to play more matches than others to win a title. That will always be the case as long as we continue with the county structure. Are we willing to split Dublin and amalgamate other counties together to level out population mismatches?

Finally on the point of Dublin playing all their matches in Croke Park. I agree Dublin should get to travel more and as supporters we love a day on the road and would welcome the opportunity. Let's not forget however that when Meath last won in 99, they played all their championship matches in Croke Park, likewise Kildare on their runs in 98 & 00. If you're a strong Leinster side, chances are you will play all your matches in Croke Park and it's up the Leinster Council to change that.

I've been around long enough to see enough dark days to know that nothing lasts forever. I just consider it a privilege to witness this team and all they have achieved.

bubba83 (Dublin) - Posts: 329 - 23/11/2020 09:22:55    2313643

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Replying To bubba83:  "Dublin got their act together 20 years ago and developed the blueprint and secured the funding for the development of our games in Dublin. This was at a time when Leinster rugby was on the rise and a potential serious challenge for the future growth of the GAA in Dublin.

At the time the Senior team were a bit of a laughing stock, remember how everyone laughed at the Blue Book, the linking arms and marching to the Hill, the 'startled earwigs' against Kerry in 2009, the hammering from Tyrone in 2008, Dublin not being able to beat anyone outside of Leinster.

All this time the Dublin County Board were laying the foundations to turn around Dublin's fortunes. They were going into schools and getting the underage structures in place that are paying dividends now. They had the foresight back then to recognise there was a problem and put a long term plan in place to secure the future of Dublin GAA, which is stronger than ever.

All this talk of throwing in the towel is ridiculous and short-sighted. The only way forward is for a national plan to implement similar underage structures which some counties are now starting to do, Tipperary being a good example of what can be achieved here.

As for the championship, there has always been an imbalance be it population sizes or number of counties in provinces, some teams having to play more matches than others to win a title. That will always be the case as long as we continue with the county structure. Are we willing to split Dublin and amalgamate other counties together to level out population mismatches?

Finally on the point of Dublin playing all their matches in Croke Park. I agree Dublin should get to travel more and as supporters we love a day on the road and would welcome the opportunity. Let's not forget however that when Meath last won in 99, they played all their championship matches in Croke Park, likewise Kildare on their runs in 98 & 00. If you're a strong Leinster side, chances are you will play all your matches in Croke Park and it's up the Leinster Council to change that.

I've been around long enough to see enough dark days to know that nothing lasts forever. I just consider it a privilege to witness this team and all they have achieved."
For anyone interested - the Commemorative Bloody Sunday match programme of Dublin v Meath is available to buy online. €5 Sure to be a collectors item and be a lot of demand for it, due to the anniversary of the events in 1920.

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 3303 - 23/11/2020 10:04:09    2313672

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Replying To Morty:  "Nope but I did cringe at you typing 'lol'"
ROFL

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1071 - 23/11/2020 10:36:50    2313721

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Good man, fair play to him. I don't think he's right, but I'm all for questions being asked and openness and transparency. I find his arguments a bit rudimentary to be honest.

My fear is this is a self serving marketing ploy, I do however feel, if he is serious as a barrister he can legally represent a group in Leinster if they so wish, I doubt that will happen though, but I hope it does and if I was the GAA I would be looking at this as an opportunity."
I see he's using the good old "per registered player" nonsense argument.

Gavvygavgav (Dublin) - Posts: 329 - 23/11/2020 14:11:06    2313990

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Replying To Gavvygavgav:  "I see he's using the good old "per registered player" nonsense argument."
Yep, that is what you up against - its what makes me think its a profile/marketing thing. Why would register players need attracting to Gaelic Games. So many people dont understand the purpose of games development.

The argument defeats itself really.,

We are often accused of two advantages of money and population.

The funny thing is with the registered player to finance argument. If you want to prove Dublin are over funded, you have to cut the population to 39k registered players.

If you want to prove population is an advantage then you have to use an analysis and ration of a population of 1.34 mill to Dublin GDF, which has Dublin below other prominent counties per head in finance.

One argument discounts the other, its funny really, id be going elsewhere for my barrister services.

I haven't done last year figures yet, but i will if anyone is interested. I know we are down on funding and some noteworthy increased funds in other counties.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3649 - 23/11/2020 14:31:30    2314016

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I posted this on the other thread but probably more relevant here. I have no issue with the Dublin team or Dublin GAA but massive change is needed and it's needed immediately. Other counties sneering at rest of the Leinster counties for not being brave or courageous or working hard enough is naive and not in keeping with the ethics of a real GAA person. These young players are training just as hard as any other county, but their confidence is shot and players aren't making themselves available anymore. As Mickey Quinn said on Off The Ball, everytime you get smashed by Dublin it sets the county back by three years and you lose players.

Dublin are like a black hole and the other Leinster counties are caught in their gravity. The idea that this was a once in a generation group of players, which was always a complete fallacy, has been put to bed, and the idea that Dublin not having huge success at minor means this run is gonna come to an end is fantasy stuff. Dublin aren't worried about winning All Irelands at that grade.

Next year Covid will hopefully be gone and crowds will be allowed back at matches. But you might not notice that at Leinster games involving Dublin. Opposition fans and even Dublin fans themselves aren't going to be bothered going. The stats on attendance figures in Leinster don't lie. What used to be sellout games against Dublin are now eerily quiet, even preCovid.

The natural next step is parents like me pushing our kids in the direction of other sports. If the GAA and our own County Boards continue to fail to show an understanding of the seriousness of this situation or the GAA fail to show that they care about the Leinster counties outside of Dublin then I feel like it's not an Association I want my kids to be involved in.

HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 227 - 23/11/2020 14:43:41    2314023

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Yep, that is what you up against - its what makes me think its a profile/marketing thing. Why would register players need attracting to Gaelic Games. So many people dont understand the purpose of games development.

The argument defeats itself really.,

We are often accused of two advantages of money and population.

The funny thing is with the registered player to finance argument. If you want to prove Dublin are over funded, you have to cut the population to 39k registered players.

If you want to prove population is an advantage then you have to use an analysis and ration of a population of 1.34 mill to Dublin GDF, which has Dublin below other prominent counties per head in finance.

One argument discounts the other, its funny really, id be going elsewhere for my barrister services.

I haven't done last year figures yet, but i will if anyone is interested. I know we are down on funding and some noteworthy increased funds in other counties."
Do you know how much Dublin GAA actually fundraise per annum on average for county teams? Just curious.

I do understand the player participantion, it makes sense from increasing playing numbers point if view. And inevitably it does benefit the county team even if that isn't the core purpose. Conversely the more successful and dominant Dublin are the more young players in other Leinster counties drift away from their traditional sport.

There's other money it's hard to account for too. The super clubs like Cuala probably take in more on sponsorship than most county teams raise each year. It's very, very complex.

HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 227 - 23/11/2020 14:50:09    2314026

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Replying To HighKings:  "I posted this on the other thread but probably more relevant here. I have no issue with the Dublin team or Dublin GAA but massive change is needed and it's needed immediately. Other counties sneering at rest of the Leinster counties for not being brave or courageous or working hard enough is naive and not in keeping with the ethics of a real GAA person. These young players are training just as hard as any other county, but their confidence is shot and players aren't making themselves available anymore. As Mickey Quinn said on Off The Ball, everytime you get smashed by Dublin it sets the county back by three years and you lose players.

Dublin are like a black hole and the other Leinster counties are caught in their gravity. The idea that this was a once in a generation group of players, which was always a complete fallacy, has been put to bed, and the idea that Dublin not having huge success at minor means this run is gonna come to an end is fantasy stuff. Dublin aren't worried about winning All Irelands at that grade.

Next year Covid will hopefully be gone and crowds will be allowed back at matches. But you might not notice that at Leinster games involving Dublin. Opposition fans and even Dublin fans themselves aren't going to be bothered going. The stats on attendance figures in Leinster don't lie. What used to be sellout games against Dublin are now eerily quiet, even preCovid.

The natural next step is parents like me pushing our kids in the direction of other sports. If the GAA and our own County Boards continue to fail to show an understanding of the seriousness of this situation or the GAA fail to show that they care about the Leinster counties outside of Dublin then I feel like it's not an Association I want my kids to be involved in."
I think a lot of the criticism of Meath has been harsh.

What Dublin did to them they can do to any other team in the country pretty much.

Meath tried to put them under pressure from a knockout, one player was caught out and bang it's a goal.

Dublin are so clinical and you have to try to play them up the pitch but if you do and get it wrong it can go horribly wrong.


Other counties don't deserve to sneer at Meath and the other Leinster counties.

A lot of these counties are properly duel counties too. They don't bother much with that back in Ulster or out west.

The 2 codes compete against one another for time, money, players.

It's tough too for Leinster counties to reach the latter stages of the All Ireland. 7 of 11 teams have to win through 4 rounds of qualifiers to make a last 8, semifinalists need to win 3 still.

In Connacht you could go straight to a semifinal v Leitrim or London and win there be good enough for a last 12 spot.

There's a few dynamics at play against Leinster teams.

There's definitely a lot of stuff that they could do better themselves but there are things being contended with that other counties don't.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3103 - 23/11/2020 15:56:11    2314081

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Replying To HighKings:  "Do you know how much Dublin GAA actually fundraise per annum on average for county teams? Just curious.

I do understand the player participantion, it makes sense from increasing playing numbers point if view. And inevitably it does benefit the county team even if that isn't the core purpose. Conversely the more successful and dominant Dublin are the more young players in other Leinster counties drift away from their traditional sport.

There's other money it's hard to account for too. The super clubs like Cuala probably take in more on sponsorship than most county teams raise each year. It's very, very complex."
I actually do. The County board dont fundraise apart for the players fund for holidays.

There is an arrangement between the county board and clubs in Dublin, that the county board don fundraise in the way they could and leave the fundraising field open to clubs to fundraise as they have to pay the 50% of the cost of the GPO's, GDA's and GDO's. Its quite innovative and effective.

Personally id be quite critical of the DCB and player participation, despite lads on here vaunting the Dublin blueprint to be rolled out elsewhere. When you actually look at the number there is close to 1.34 million people in Dublin only 39k are registered players, that is massively poor population to participation ratio. You can arguably see why the need games development funds exist, just on the scale of population that could be cultivated for the GAA and worryingly for the GAA the vast numbers who arent in Dublin.

When you actually look at the Dublin team, the two Smalls, Jamsie, Philly, Comerford and Deano come from a club that is largely skint and has less then 300 members.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3649 - 23/11/2020 16:15:57    2314100

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Replying To HighKings:  "Do you know how much Dublin GAA actually fundraise per annum on average for county teams? Just curious.

I do understand the player participantion, it makes sense from increasing playing numbers point if view. And inevitably it does benefit the county team even if that isn't the core purpose. Conversely the more successful and dominant Dublin are the more young players in other Leinster counties drift away from their traditional sport.

There's other money it's hard to account for too. The super clubs like Cuala probably take in more on sponsorship than most county teams raise each year. It's very, very complex."
Just on Cuala, i know you are hinting at the sponsorship deal signed last Spring. That is impressive. What is not impressive is that Cuala teams play their games mostly on County Council pitches, so you have Mick Fitzsimons and the O Callaghans down the local park playing their club games on bogs.

Their are uniuqe challenges in Dublin that no other county faces. Cuala are Shankill, Killiney, Dalky club - if you want to buy a piece of land there to accommodate a football pitch and a club house you are talking 20- 30 mill conservatively.

A huge challenge for GAA in Dublin is space and land and cost, this isnt the case anywhere else. Communities are bursting at the seams and clubs are struggling to accommodate for sheer numbers, Dublin needs more clubs, it needs more GAA grounds. Their is is an inhibiting factor of cost of land and space that really a local GAA club just cant muster. So plenty of players just dont keep on because their just isn't the space or room to accommodate them, their development and to space to facilitate regular games.

This is a challenge that only exists in Dublin. People think what goes on in dublin is the land of milk and honey, i really wish is was, i think if we sorted the Dublin uniuqe problems we might have a case to answer on some of the accusations. Certainly if we cultivated 100k registered players, some of the arguments might stick.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3649 - 23/11/2020 16:27:14    2314112

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I actually do. The County board dont fundraise apart for the players fund for holidays.

There is an arrangement between the county board and clubs in Dublin, that the county board don fundraise in the way they could and leave the fundraising field open to clubs to fundraise as they have to pay the 50% of the cost of the GPO's, GDA's and GDO's. Its quite innovative and effective.

Personally id be quite critical of the DCB and player participation, despite lads on here vaunting the Dublin blueprint to be rolled out elsewhere. When you actually look at the number there is close to 1.34 million people in Dublin only 39k are registered players, that is massively poor population to participation ratio. You can arguably see why the need games development funds exist, just on the scale of population that could be cultivated for the GAA and worryingly for the GAA the vast numbers who arent in Dublin.

When you actually look at the Dublin team, the two Smalls, Jamsie, Philly, Comerford and Deano come from a club that is largely skint and has less then 300 members."
Membership numbers can be very misleading. People can be involved in a club and not a member. I played GAA for years without being a member of the club.

As to the fund raising it's definitely interesting. It saves the county board a lot of time and energy not having to worry about where money is coming from. Look at the lengths other counties go to. jim McGuinness said fundraising was one of the first things he did as county manager, it's very hard work.

HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 227 - 23/11/2020 16:37:49    2314122

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Just on Cuala, i know you are hinting at the sponsorship deal signed last Spring. That is impressive. What is not impressive is that Cuala teams play their games mostly on County Council pitches, so you have Mick Fitzsimons and the O Callaghans down the local park playing their club games on bogs.

Their are uniuqe challenges in Dublin that no other county faces. Cuala are Shankill, Killiney, Dalky club - if you want to buy a piece of land there to accommodate a football pitch and a club house you are talking 20- 30 mill conservatively.

A huge challenge for GAA in Dublin is space and land and cost, this isnt the case anywhere else. Communities are bursting at the seams and clubs are struggling to accommodate for sheer numbers, Dublin needs more clubs, it needs more GAA grounds. Their is is an inhibiting factor of cost of land and space that really a local GAA club just cant muster. So plenty of players just dont keep on because their just isn't the space or room to accommodate them, their development and to space to facilitate regular games.

This is a challenge that only exists in Dublin. People think what goes on in dublin is the land of milk and honey, i really wish is was, i think if we sorted the Dublin uniuqe problems we might have a case to answer on some of the accusations. Certainly if we cultivated 100k registered players, some of the arguments might stick."
I understand the point re the space and cost. I've lived on both the North and South side and the place is busting at the seams. I'm back in Meath now and I think there's more Dubs here than in Dublin , lol. But to be honest having more players than you can accommodate is better than the alternative. I haven't played in a long time but when I did I always played a couple of ages up as there was no team at my age or the ages below me. The club has just gotten weaker, Intermediate, then Junior A. Like I said I haven't been involved since I left the area, when I recently checked how they're doing I see they're Junior B now and they got hammered in every game this year.

There is a bit of hope though, they have more young people in the club now then ever before. Some of the migration from Dublin is finally starting to appear.

HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 227 - 23/11/2020 16:46:26    2314130

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Replying To bubba83:  "Dublin got their act together 20 years ago and developed the blueprint and secured the funding for the development of our games in Dublin. This was at a time when Leinster rugby was on the rise and a potential serious challenge for the future growth of the GAA in Dublin.

At the time the Senior team were a bit of a laughing stock, remember how everyone laughed at the Blue Book, the linking arms and marching to the Hill, the 'startled earwigs' against Kerry in 2009, the hammering from Tyrone in 2008, Dublin not being able to beat anyone outside of Leinster.

All this time the Dublin County Board were laying the foundations to turn around Dublin's fortunes. They were going into schools and getting the underage structures in place that are paying dividends now. They had the foresight back then to recognise there was a problem and put a long term plan in place to secure the future of Dublin GAA, which is stronger than ever.

All this talk of throwing in the towel is ridiculous and short-sighted. The only way forward is for a national plan to implement similar underage structures which some counties are now starting to do, Tipperary being a good example of what can be achieved here.

As for the championship, there has always been an imbalance be it population sizes or number of counties in provinces, some teams having to play more matches than others to win a title. That will always be the case as long as we continue with the county structure. Are we willing to split Dublin and amalgamate other counties together to level out population mismatches?

Finally on the point of Dublin playing all their matches in Croke Park. I agree Dublin should get to travel more and as supporters we love a day on the road and would welcome the opportunity. Let's not forget however that when Meath last won in 99, they played all their championship matches in Croke Park, likewise Kildare on their runs in 98 & 00. If you're a strong Leinster side, chances are you will play all your matches in Croke Park and it's up the Leinster Council to change that.

I've been around long enough to see enough dark days to know that nothing lasts forever. I just consider it a privilege to witness this team and all they have achieved."
Jesus wept.. I don't know if you are genuine or having a laugh.. if genuine its incredibly how out of touch you are with the reality of the situation.. I only hope you are unique in that view..
Tipp got their house in order that's how they're having success and Leinster counties aren't! Just to educate you a small bit because I haven't the time to unveil to you the totality of what's really going on with Leinster champ, Kildare are recent all Ireland under 20 champions numerous Leinster minor/u21 titles and one of the most successful underage counties in the country because of structures put in place 20 years ago.. but simply don't have the money Dublin have to prepare a senior team like they can..

cuttothebone (Kildare) - Posts: 123 - 23/11/2020 17:10:31    2314146

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No disrespect to Meath but I think the last two leinster final results in particular shine a light on the issues within the province. If Meath or any other county was competitive in a leinster final against Dublin, the issues would go unnoticed but Dublin have hammered Meath, Kildare, Laois and Westmeath in finals this decade ; no county can compete with them and it has killed interest in football in the province. Is it Dublin's fault? I'm not sure it is entirely. Maybe one way to change it, would be for the GAA to rotate Dublin between the provinces on a yearly basis, give other leinster teams a chance and see if any teams in the other provinces can beat Dublin then we will know if it is all down to other leinster counties or not. I won't hold my breath on this suggestion happening.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1177 - 23/11/2020 19:19:58    2314217

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Replying To HighKings:  "Membership numbers can be very misleading. People can be involved in a club and not a member. I played GAA for years without being a member of the club.

As to the fund raising it's definitely interesting. It saves the county board a lot of time and energy not having to worry about where money is coming from. Look at the lengths other counties go to. jim McGuinness said fundraising was one of the first things he did as county manager, it's very hard work."
you have to be a member to play. Perhaps you didn't realise it but you would have been registered.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5346 - 23/11/2020 21:30:20    2314322

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Replying To s goldrick:  "you have to be a member to play. Perhaps you didn't realise it but you would have been registered."
Correct...I don't get how you can play for a club or even just help out and not be a member. Your not insured for a start.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10332 - 23/11/2020 22:39:36    2314386

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