HoganStand GAA Football and Hurling

National Forum

Are We Too Critical Of Referees

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post

You need to Login to Post

Replying To Helm82: "No. Referees are fans of the game otherwise they wouldn't be doing the job. Because they are fans of the game they also have bias towards certain teams just like fans do. However, if referees do come out and say they have made a mistake it isn't going to benefit them. If referees don't come out and say they make mistakes the powers to be in GAA wont acknowledge there either needs to be a change in the rules or something has to be implemented to help them. The GAA are going around with their head buried in the sand. Every year there's a handful of games that have been decided by unfair or bad refereeing decisions." This is the usual internet keyboard warrior bs we get!! The ones crying are usually the ones who are not refs becuase they have not the liathróidí. No ref has won or lost a game for a team. Even Limerick's loss was down to themselves and their wides not one decision. Usually we take one decision in the last 5 minutes were it was a mistake or against your team and use this to scapegoat a carp performance. Name one game were a ref won it for a team?? witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 30/07/2019 02:01:42 2218563 Link
Replying To witnof: "This is the usual internet keyboard warrior bs we get!! The ones crying are usually the ones who are not refs becuase they have not the liathróidí. No ref has won or lost a game for a team. Even Limerick's loss was down to themselves and their wides not one decision. Usually we take one decision in the last 5 minutes were it was a mistake or against your team and use this to scapegoat a carp performance. Name one game were a ref won it for a team??" Here are 2 for starters in big big games. Kerry V Mayo AI Semi Final replay 2014. (The Donaghy frees that were not and etc) Donegal V Mayo DIV 1 League relegation decider 2018 (Kevin McLoughlin 13 steps before kicking deciding point) giveitlong (Galway) - Posts: 1222 - 30/07/2019 10:01:59 2218606 Link
Replying To carlowman: "Umpiring is a specific skill that takes a.litrle bit of time to develop. Having referees as umpires will not necessarily work. There is a shortage of referees as it is and they are needed for club games in their county and would find it hard to get away to.do umpire in big games." Carlowman, this perfectly leads into the argument that i have been making for years... The GAA should be paying referees better, thus incentivising more referees to qualify. Also, once paid a higher wage for their services they can be held to a higher standard! An independent referee assessment board could be set up to assess (and penalise where necessary) referees (there is a CCCC for players, why not a real one for refs). I'm yet to see an issue with this plan, the GAA is a hugely grossing organisation and surely they should protect, foster and implement proper oversight over one of the biggest influences on the games??? Too often have we heard the line "its hard to accept after putting in all that work all year and have it taken away by a poor refereeing decision..." faithful4ever (Offaly) - Posts: 209 - 30/07/2019 10:16:20 2218611 Link
Are we too critical of refs? No, the reason is there is too much pressure on 1 person, what eejet changed the rules where in the past linesmen and umpires helped the ref out and made difficult calls nowadays the ref has to make the call, linesmen and umpires can only advise the ref. In last Sundays hurling match a punch was thrown by a Tipperary player into the stomach of a Wexford player, the ref didn't see it but the 4th official may have seen it or hawkeye monitors and could have told him, not allowed, hawkeye is only for scores allowed or disallowed, 4th official is just for holding up the board when subs are coming on or showing the world how much added time is being allowed as well as a sub ref if needed. Change the rules and give the linesmen, umpires, 4th officials and hawkeye the authority to help the ref, make the calls and take the pressure off the referees riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 30/07/2019 10:49:13 2218638 Link
Replying To giveitlong: "Here are 2 for starters in big big games. Kerry V Mayo AI Semi Final replay 2014. (The Donaghy frees that were not and etc) Donegal V Mayo DIV 1 League relegation decider 2018 (Kevin McLoughlin 13 steps before kicking deciding point)" No. Again you simply point to one error near or at the end of game. Yet Mayo and Donegal both should have closed out those games earlier. Neither match was won or lost by the ref. He made one mistake at the end and now he is at fault for the whole defeat? If you start judging players on the same basis fair enough...but you do not. witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 30/07/2019 11:08:54 2218655 Link
You get some decisions and you don't get others. It has always been this way and it will never change. It's like the rising and setting of the sun, it will happen. The impotent dumbies will rage and howl, only about the decisions (often late on) that went against their team and conveniently forget the decisions that went for them. The ref will get most calls right and even on the ones he gets wrong, if people were honest with themselves they could see where he was coming from at least. But the idiot menchildren aren't interested in honesty, only their impotent rage. MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 30/07/2019 11:27:39 2218671 Link
Players and managers make the crucial decisions and mistakes that win or lose games not referees. hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 30/07/2019 11:29:20 2218673 Link
Anyone that is very critical of referees need to be in that position. In relation to Sean Cleere on Sunday and I'm not his biggest fan by any means. He used to drive me mad reffing underage matches I played in and took a lot of abuse from players (happy to say I never got involved in it) but I always felt he treated both teams the same. But on Sunday I felt he did quite well considering the speed of the match. He wasn't solely responsible for the big calls. 1. The hawk-eye incident - when an umpire calls for hawk-eye, the ref has to wait for the review to take place. This could take about 30 seconds but there is a break in play so it is accepted. Yet on Sunday, Hogan caught, cleared, foul, quick free, goal. Another poster said it took 32 seconds from catch to goal. Hawk-eye take a certain amount of time. Imagine if he got a little signal as Tipp were attacking to say we need to review the catch, he stops the game, goes back and it wasn't a point. That would be fair more unjust on Tipp. 2. Tipps other disallowed goal - I think he had blown for this as the ball was on the way in. If you watch back closely, before Morris had picked the ball, Liam Ryan was standing with his arms out complaining about the decision. Perhaps he could have waited for the ball to land but Wexford had Tipp outnumbered and he thought it was inside the box so I can understand him blowing. He correctly consulted with the umpires who correctly told him the foul was outside the box. 3. Conor McDonald's second goal - He was following up play, the goal was scored and he asked the question of his umpires. They could not say it was a square ball so he had to give the goal. He can't be out the pitch and standing on the box at the same time. I think his biggest mistake was not giving Wexford a penalty when Ronan Maher pulled down McDonald. We can talk all we want about technology but this is pointless unless the exact same technology is in place to cover every inch of every county ground. it can't just be in Croke Park. This is the issue with hawk-eye. If that match was in Nowlan Park or any other ground (other than Thurles) Tipp would have got a goal. Then the debate arises regarding club grounds, if technology is in Nowlan Park and a county quarter final is played there and technology is used to call a decision that puts a team through but another quarter final is in a club ground and a similar incident is missed resulting in a club being knocked out, it isn't right either. I think we should all aspire to definitive fairness but in the current circumstances, the best we can ask for is equity. KK4Life (Kilkenny) - Posts: 56 - 30/07/2019 11:51:14 2218681 Link
Replying To KK4Life: "Anyone that is very critical of referees need to be in that position. In relation to Sean Cleere on Sunday and I'm not his biggest fan by any means. He used to drive me mad reffing underage matches I played in and took a lot of abuse from players (happy to say I never got involved in it) but I always felt he treated both teams the same. But on Sunday I felt he did quite well considering the speed of the match. He wasn't solely responsible for the big calls. 1. The hawk-eye incident - when an umpire calls for hawk-eye, the ref has to wait for the review to take place. This could take about 30 seconds but there is a break in play so it is accepted. Yet on Sunday, Hogan caught, cleared, foul, quick free, goal. Another poster said it took 32 seconds from catch to goal. Hawk-eye take a certain amount of time. Imagine if he got a little signal as Tipp were attacking to say we need to review the catch, he stops the game, goes back and it wasn't a point. That would be fair more unjust on Tipp. 2. Tipps other disallowed goal - I think he had blown for this as the ball was on the way in. If you watch back closely, before Morris had picked the ball, Liam Ryan was standing with his arms out complaining about the decision. Perhaps he could have waited for the ball to land but Wexford had Tipp outnumbered and he thought it was inside the box so I can understand him blowing. He correctly consulted with the umpires who correctly told him the foul was outside the box. 3. Conor McDonald's second goal - He was following up play, the goal was scored and he asked the question of his umpires. They could not say it was a square ball so he had to give the goal. He can't be out the pitch and standing on the box at the same time. I think his biggest mistake was not giving Wexford a penalty when Ronan Maher pulled down McDonald. We can talk all we want about technology but this is pointless unless the exact same technology is in place to cover every inch of every county ground. it can't just be in Croke Park. This is the issue with hawk-eye. If that match was in Nowlan Park or any other ground (other than Thurles) Tipp would have got a goal. Then the debate arises regarding club grounds, if technology is in Nowlan Park and a county quarter final is played there and technology is used to call a decision that puts a team through but another quarter final is in a club ground and a similar incident is missed resulting in a club being knocked out, it isn't right either. I think we should all aspire to definitive fairness but in the current circumstances, the best we can ask for is equity." Would agree with most of your honest assessment. However the GAA have enough of money to bring every inter county ground up to date with technology. They also have the control to make changes that will allow better decisions to be made by the the officials in the game as now played. Like someone making calls when the ball is 100 yards away from him. Lines man, second ref. Video ref who ever. This is not about bashing referees but telling it as it is. A lot of what transpired in the game was not of Sean Cleere's making but there were some things he needs to answer for. He does not have the right to change the rule that if you hit or attempt to hit with the stick it is a straight red card. Why ? because this is not fair to other players who have had the rule applied to them. He does not have the right to watch a player been rugby tackled and take no action. Again this was blatant and not subjective. He needs to answer as to why his match control changed after the sending off. This for sure is subjective. Referees need a lot more training and should be considered for full time jobs. I know money. Well there are many full time paying jobs in the Gaa. Are there anymore important than this one? Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 30/07/2019 14:05:57 2218738 Link
A video ref. would work. All refs will miss a couple of calls, especially in hurling. maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1196 - 30/07/2019 14:24:08 2218745 Link
Replying To Canuck: "Would agree with most of your honest assessment. However the GAA have enough of money to bring every inter county ground up to date with technology. They also have the control to make changes that will allow better decisions to be made by the the officials in the game as now played. Like someone making calls when the ball is 100 yards away from him. Lines man, second ref. Video ref who ever. This is not about bashing referees but telling it as it is. A lot of what transpired in the game was not of Sean Cleere's making but there were some things he needs to answer for. He does not have the right to change the rule that if you hit or attempt to hit with the stick it is a straight red card. Why ? because this is not fair to other players who have had the rule applied to them. He does not have the right to watch a player been rugby tackled and take no action. Again this was blatant and not subjective. He needs to answer as to why his match control changed after the sending off. This for sure is subjective. Referees need a lot more training and should be considered for full time jobs. I know money. Well there are many full time paying jobs in the Gaa. Are there anymore important than this one?" I'm not convinced refereeing should be a full time job. The players will have to become professional before referees do (I don't want players professional). I do think they need to be better trained. The speed of the game is so high now that referees, even with the best of intentions can not keep up. To be fair to Sean Cleere, he is very, very fit but his fitness is long distance running fitness as opposed to 50/60 metre sprint bursts. I think what should be done is consistent training camps for referees with specifically designed training plans for referees. Refereeing club matches is not the same thing. I agree that a 2nd ref has to be seriously considered. I'm not convinced by the technology. I think it will drive a further wedge with the club game. Rules should be for all hurling and not just the inter-county matches just because they are highly publicised. KK4Life (Kilkenny) - Posts: 56 - 30/07/2019 14:27:29 2218746 Link
Replying To Killarney.87: "Hard luck yesterday Perfect 10. That's a good point. Don't be too hard on your boys. Playing in your first semi final as a player is hard going." fair play Killarney.87 i haven't criticised any of our players either. the irony is that what the traditionalists love and criticise wexford for not doing,long puck outs and drive it down the field,cost us the match on sunday when we started doing it. the easiest thing in the world is to blame the referee.if you just blame a referee it avoids the other issues at play in such a huge occasion. i am still hurting today,i can only imagine what the players feel like perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 30/07/2019 14:41:36 2218755 Link
Trying to ref the top level hurling matches is a near on impossible task. TMO would sort out most of the big calls. TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7902 - 30/07/2019 14:47:59 2218756 Link
Don't need a second ref. The two linesmen should be allowed to come in field and officiate too. How often do they have to decide when a ball is out of play as opposed to important decisions on the field. They can do both without much hassle Thelonesomegoose (Leitrim) - Posts: 204 - 30/07/2019 14:58:56 2218763 Link
Replying To giveitlong: "Here are 2 for starters in big big games. Kerry V Mayo AI Semi Final replay 2014. (The Donaghy frees that were not and etc) Donegal V Mayo DIV 1 League relegation decider 2018 (Kevin McLoughlin 13 steps before kicking deciding point)" You are right but posters are only interested in last weekend, its a joke maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1196 - 30/07/2019 15:11:51 2218771 Link
Replying To KK4Life: "I'm not convinced refereeing should be a full time job. The players will have to become professional before referees do (I don't want players professional). I do think they need to be better trained. The speed of the game is so high now that referees, even with the best of intentions can not keep up. To be fair to Sean Cleere, he is very, very fit but his fitness is long distance running fitness as opposed to 50/60 metre sprint bursts. I think what should be done is consistent training camps for referees with specifically designed training plans for referees. Refereeing club matches is not the same thing. I agree that a 2nd ref has to be seriously considered. I'm not convinced by the technology. I think it will drive a further wedge with the club game. Rules should be for all hurling and not just the inter-county matches just because they are highly publicised." KK4Life there is no disagreements in any sport about the decisions make by video review. The dispute is always about when and for what it should be used. You first take the critical elements of the game, scores, red cards, (no player should be sent off without review) off the ball hitting for a few. It won't slow down the game any more that guys tying laces., referees having to write scores in a book while the goalie having to wait. Referee checking time. All these thing are a quick and easy fix. What annoys me is the co-commentators Duignan and Cummins especially calling a wrong (usually getting it wrong) call before video has looked at it. In hockey the video replay has cameras and angles that t.v. don't have. They then pass on those videos to the t.v. to stop commentators from mouthing off about things. They have also established for discipline you not use slow motion only. Players getting nailed for intent when normal speed showed momentum caused them to make contact. Final decisions are made on normal speed. Referees have to make decisions in seconds and don't seem to be able to do that consistently. A pilot won't be left fly a plane until he has trained on a simulator and passes a test. if not already referees should be trained and tested, passed or failed on simulated refereeing of games. That is why it needs to be professional job so the best will apply. get certified or sacked as required. I don't know what is involved with referring at the moment but do believe the standard is low and a big portion of the problem is how officiating on the field is set up. Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 30/07/2019 16:25:59 2218791 Link
Replying To Thelonesomegoose: "Don't need a second ref. The two linesmen should be allowed to come in field and officiate too. How often do they have to decide when a ball is out of play as opposed to important decisions on the field. They can do both without much hassle" Again any of the mentioned things are improvements. Do something. Make the lines men assist or a second referee. Some linemen seem active. Others stand watching two guys flaking each other and might intervene if the ref asks. If it is 50/50 I am sure if cautioned to stop or you are both going off that would make a difference. Players know the linesmen have no teeth (figuratively). Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 30/07/2019 16:39:29 2218797 Link
Replying To KK4Life: "I'm not convinced refereeing should be a full time job. The players will have to become professional before referees do (I don't want players professional). I do think they need to be better trained. The speed of the game is so high now that referees, even with the best of intentions can not keep up. To be fair to Sean Cleere, he is very, very fit but his fitness is long distance running fitness as opposed to 50/60 metre sprint bursts. I think what should be done is consistent training camps for referees with specifically designed training plans for referees. Refereeing club matches is not the same thing. I agree that a 2nd ref has to be seriously considered. I'm not convinced by the technology. I think it will drive a further wedge with the club game. Rules should be for all hurling and not just the inter-county matches just because they are highly publicised." KK4Life there is no disagreements in any sport about the decisions make by video review. The dispute is always about when and for what it should be used. You first take the critical elements of the game, scores, red cards, (no player should be sent off without review) off the ball hitting for a few. It won't slow down the game any more that guys tying laces., referees having to write scores in a book while the goalie having to wait. Referee checking time. All these thing are a quick and easy fix. What annoys me is the co-commentators Duignan and Cummins especially calling a wrong (usually getting it wrong) call before video has looked at it. In hockey the video replay has cameras and angles that t.v. don't have. They then pass on those videos to the t.v. to stop commentators from mouthing off about things. They have also established for discipline you not use slow motion only. Players getting nailed for intent when normal speed showed momentum caused them to make contact. Final decisions are made on normal speed. Referees have to make decisions in seconds and don't seem to be able to do that consistently. A pilot won't be left fly a plane until he has trained on a simulator and passes a test. if not already referees should be trained and tested, passed or failed on simulated refereeing of games. That is why it needs to be professional job so the best will apply. get certified or sacked as required. I don't know what is involved with referring at the moment but do believe the standard is low and a big portion of the problem is how officiating on the field is set up. Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 30/07/2019 16:40:12 2218798 Link
Replying To Canuck: "KK4Life there is no disagreements in any sport about the decisions make by video review. The dispute is always about when and for what it should be used. You first take the critical elements of the game, scores, red cards, (no player should be sent off without review) off the ball hitting for a few. It won't slow down the game any more that guys tying laces., referees having to write scores in a book while the goalie having to wait. Referee checking time. All these thing are a quick and easy fix. What annoys me is the co-commentators Duignan and Cummins especially calling a wrong (usually getting it wrong) call before video has looked at it. In hockey the video replay has cameras and angles that t.v. don't have. They then pass on those videos to the t.v. to stop commentators from mouthing off about things. They have also established for discipline you not use slow motion only. Players getting nailed for intent when normal speed showed momentum caused them to make contact. Final decisions are made on normal speed. Referees have to make decisions in seconds and don't seem to be able to do that consistently. A pilot won't be left fly a plane until he has trained on a simulator and passes a test. if not already referees should be trained and tested, passed or failed on simulated refereeing of games. That is why it needs to be professional job so the best will apply. get certified or sacked as required. I don't know what is involved with referring at the moment but do believe the standard is low and a big portion of the problem is how officiating on the field is set up." A lot of incidents would be clear on video review but not all. Would a video review of the penalty incident on Saturday have done much? Both fouling each other. My call would have been a clash ball. It would have taken about 2 mins to come to any decision. Re. Angles used in ice hockey is not a like for like comparison. What size is an ice rink compared to a hurling pitch? It is easy to cover all angles on a small space. Look how long a decision can take in rugby. Also how can you say there are no disagreements. These calls are often still opinion over certainty. Like in rugby, foul play stopping definite try resulting in penalty try and yellow card is still someone's opinion of whether it was a certain try. Or judging if a players foot was on the line before grounding a ball can even be a judgement call. Is this technology going to be put into every county and club ground in the country or is the club game not important enough for it? KK4Life (Kilkenny) - Posts: 56 - 30/07/2019 21:19:47 2218890 Link
Replying To KK4Life: "A lot of incidents would be clear on video review but not all. Would a video review of the penalty incident on Saturday have done much? Both fouling each other. My call would have been a clash ball. It would have taken about 2 mins to come to any decision. Re. Angles used in ice hockey is not a like for like comparison. What size is an ice rink compared to a hurling pitch? It is easy to cover all angles on a small space. Look how long a decision can take in rugby. Also how can you say there are no disagreements. These calls are often still opinion over certainty. Like in rugby, foul play stopping definite try resulting in penalty try and yellow card is still someone's opinion of whether it was a certain try. Or judging if a players foot was on the line before grounding a ball can even be a judgement call. Is this technology going to be put into every county and club ground in the country or is the club game not important enough for it?" I am not saying there are not disagreements but many many less than when there is replay. It is about reducing the margin of error as there always were wrong calls and will be. The majority of calls should continue to be made on the field but don't tell me that a camera will not show what happened better than the ref who is 100 yds away at the other end of the field. Don't tell me umpires and lines men can make these calls because that is the joke of the year. Too many don't want to do anything either video or second referee. I hope you are not one of them. It does not seem so. Personally I prefer the result to be decided by the teams and the officials recognized for doing a good job. Way too much justified controversy that needs to be lowered to the minimum denominator possible by making necessary change. We all know the definition of insanity. Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 30/07/2019 21:59:14 2218918 Link