National Forum

A Tier 2 Championship For Football - Let's Give It A Go

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Replying To neverright:  "Have any counties, apart from Leitrim and Antrim, declared an interest i taking part in what be termed the 'Horan Folly' Cup?"
For the Small Ireland Football Championship. I can't see too many of the top counties not voting for it but why should they have a say when it's the so-called weaker counties that it really affects? A few mentions here of seeding for the championship, Is that not going to increase numbers of cannon fodder games in early championship? There used to be a kind of an underdog county getting the home game arrangement in the early back door years. I think Wicklow had a few good tussles because of that arrangement. Might be worth a try letting some counties have a valiant effort before they bow out and return to the bargain basement competition.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8025 - 01/05/2019 01:23:37    2181182

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think this whole line of thinking comes from the pundit arena.

"There should be a properly marketed second tier championship."

I think Jim McGuinness initiated this line. It's been trotted out by many others since.

A second tier championship would not be marketed heavily in all likelihood.

It doesn't need to be.

It needs to give teams and players a proper season. That's it. That's what players properly want. Games, tough hard competitive games. Give them a bloody bit of a life tough.

The season really is a shambles."
Hurling-style groups of 5 might work - 4 groups of 5 for Sam - and 4 groups of 3 initially, for Tier 2, but also on 'Road for Sam'.
Tier 2 - 4x 2nds host 4x 3rds, with winners at 4 1sts in Tier 2 QFs.
Tier 2 Champ to Tier 1 Last 13 - 3 best Tier 1 group winners to Tier 1 QFs.
Play the Provs early and stand alone.
What is there not to like ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3261 - 01/05/2019 01:23:56    2181183

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Replying To Ban:  "What do people actually want?

A good competition structure, or a bit of publicity?

TV televise what the general public are interested in. We give out for most of the summer cause the matches on TV are one sided and have zero entertainment levels.
I don't expect Westmeath matches to be on TV. I would seriously hope that players are not playing for Westmeath so they get on TV!"
A competition that gives counties of a weaker standard a chance to improve their standard instead if being talked down by the heads of the GAA, ignored or laughed at in the media, and longterm an ability to improve interest in Gaelic Football within their own counties. Even if it means a tiered competition but having pre League and/or post Championship games against teams from Division 1 or 2 or even college teams who could also mentor them around those games. They're very unlikely to improve by regularly playing tier two counties. I know this is almost certainly never going to happen and I don't know at all if those counties would even consider it. But it annoys me hearing about so-called weaker counties. They're not weaker counties. They just have a lower standard of football with some unreal diehard supporters who rarely see any county glory.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8025 - 01/05/2019 08:42:14    2181193

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "A competition that gives counties of a weaker standard a chance to improve their standard instead if being talked down by the heads of the GAA, ignored or laughed at in the media, and longterm an ability to improve interest in Gaelic Football within their own counties. Even if it means a tiered competition but having pre League and/or post Championship games against teams from Division 1 or 2 or even college teams who could also mentor them around those games. They're very unlikely to improve by regularly playing tier two counties. I know this is almost certainly never going to happen and I don't know at all if those counties would even consider it. But it annoys me hearing about so-called weaker counties. They're not weaker counties. They just have a lower standard of football with some unreal diehard supporters who rarely see any county glory."
A division 4 County, is a division 4 County. They wont improve by playing division 2 and 1 teams. They will improve by being the best team in division 4 first, and then climbing the ladder of division 3.. and so the process of improvements goes.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1468 - 01/05/2019 14:00:20    2181266

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Replying To Ban:  "A division 4 County, is a division 4 County. They wont improve by playing division 2 and 1 teams. They will improve by being the best team in division 4 first, and then climbing the ladder of division 3.. and so the process of improvements goes."
Agree with this, the league should be given more prominence and should over time become the main competition IMO

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2113 - 01/05/2019 14:57:17    2181286

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Agree with this, the league should be given more prominence and should over time become the main competition IMO"
Yeah I mean if there were 2 tiers there'd be a lot of variation in standards within the tiers.

Playing Longford would be above London's level.

The best teams will have seasons where they only play weaker teams and maybe not gain much from it. They will win promotion though and get a crack at a higher standard the following year.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4546 - 01/05/2019 18:22:45    2181323

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Replying To Ban:  "A division 4 County, is a division 4 County. They wont improve by playing division 2 and 1 teams. They will improve by being the best team in division 4 first, and then climbing the ladder of division 3.. and so the process of improvements goes."
I beg to differ, the gap has got considerably bigger for the so called weaker teams when the league was changed from 1a & 1B and 2A & 2B to Division 1, 2, 3, 4.

hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 02/05/2019 12:26:34    2181419

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Replying To Bon:  "Yeah but the Munster Hurling championship in the jewel in the crown of the GAA, it is the greatest sports competition on the planet and deserves as much coverage as can be given. Look at the great games in munster last year.
The reality is outside of the counties in joe mc donagh/(possible second tier football champioship) who really has any interest in watching them? But they could be streamed online like the way TG4 streamed club junior/intermediate finals. Everybody's happy."
The greatest sports competition on the planet that only people in one country know about. If you asked ten people in every country in the world who they think will win the Munster Hurling championship they would probably not be able to give you any kind of an answer.

hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 02/05/2019 12:29:10    2181420

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Replying To Ban:  "What do people actually want?

A good competition structure, or a bit of publicity?

TV televise what the general public are interested in. We give out for most of the summer cause the matches on TV are one sided and have zero entertainment levels.
I don't expect Westmeath matches to be on TV. I would seriously hope that players are not playing for Westmeath so they get on TV!"
The best games in the football last year were mostly in the leinster championship when teams of the same level were playing each other. And combined probably about 10 minutes of highlights were shown for these games on television.

hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 02/05/2019 12:30:45    2181421

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Replying To Whammo86:  "That isn't the only requirement for a second tier competition.

Giving players a better schedule of games would be an improvement.

By having a second tier you can improve the top tier competition. It's hard to have an exciting competition incorporating 32 different teams. You add in a second tier then you can incorporate promotion and relegation and have more to play for at a wider range of levels.

Having a better top tier doesn't just benefit the top teams at the expense of the lesser teams. It can be added value for the entire system. You have a better top tier it gives teams something better to aspire towards.

Take a very simple structure.

2 divisions of 16 teams, 3 up 3 down between divisions. A team could be the 19th best team in Ireland and win promotion to the top tier and play a full top tier league season. That would be something that all but the weakest teams could aspire to."
Good idea

hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 02/05/2019 12:33:01    2181422

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Replying To tipp11:  "How would it be different? You have never and will never see tipp limerick football in tv. Yes without two tier you sometimes get to see Wexford or carlow or other cannon fother playing on tv because it's against the dubs but nobody has interest in this. 2nd tier comp won't make slightest bit of difference to games on tv that's not there already"
Sky sports show cracking matches from the championship, league one and league two.
They also show proper highlights of all games

hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 02/05/2019 12:34:21    2181424

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Reality of the situation now is that the football championship is already effectively in 2 tiers. the first tier is the provincial championships and early qualifiers, which as can be seen from the TV schedules there seems to be little interest in. top tier is then the last 12 playoffs +super 8's +semi's and final

The current situation is the worst of all worlds. 1) Tier 1 is full of lopsided matches which help no one. 2) 'Weaker' teams have nothing to play for as they are up against 'strong teams 3) fixtures are messy.

Move to proper 2 tiers and a lot of those issues go away. There must be a structure that 1)allows everyone to initially be in the hunt for same but also 2) allows for a split at some point, based on merit, so teams of similar quality can play against each other to win a trophy

himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 02/05/2019 14:01:34    2181447

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Replying To hurlorhurley:  "Good idea"
Not sure I agree.

Two divisions. How would that work? Division 2 team plays 15 games? If you break each division down into groups how do you decide who goes into each group? Do you seed the 16 teams? So for example Dublin at 1, galway at 5, Cavan at 9, Kildare at 13 in group 1 say. Does this not favour the dubs?

Give me a detailed breakdown of the two tier, no sure the interest is there for two tier.

Bernardo (Monaghan) - Posts: 611 - 02/05/2019 14:15:05    2181450

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i think you will find my proposal puts all teams into the intial hunt for sam and if there not good enough then into a europa league style tournamment.

dickie10 (UK) - Posts: 834 - 02/05/2019 14:46:41    2181463

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Replying To hurlorhurley:  "I beg to differ, the gap has got considerably bigger for the so called weaker teams when the league was changed from 1a & 1B and 2A & 2B to Division 1, 2, 3, 4."
Yeah I think I'd agree with that

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4546 - 02/05/2019 14:56:02    2181470

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Replying To Bernardo:  "Not sure I agree.

Two divisions. How would that work? Division 2 team plays 15 games? If you break each division down into groups how do you decide who goes into each group? Do you seed the 16 teams? So for example Dublin at 1, galway at 5, Cavan at 9, Kildare at 13 in group 1 say. Does this not favour the dubs?

Give me a detailed breakdown of the two tier, no sure the interest is there for two tier."
It was just an example not what I think they should go to.

What I was getting at was something along the lines of.

Championship 1: 16 teams single round robin. Top 6 to All Ireland playoffs.

Bottom 3 teams relegated

Championship 2: Say top 4 to semifinals. 5-8 into Promotion playoffs where they are still in the hunt for 3rd place.

Playoff schedule

Week 1:
Semifinals 1 v 4, 2 v 3
Promotion quarterfinals 5 v 8, 6 v 7

Week 2:
Final (both finalists promoted)
Promotion semifinals: Losing championship semifinalists play winners of promotion quarterfinals.

Week 3:
Promotion Final

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4546 - 02/05/2019 18:46:06    2181508

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If we're going to a 2 tier championship, I feel it's important that it's not a case of lose-a-provincial-game and you're in the other level. Players need to know and be able to plan their forthcoming season. You maybe-mightbe at the top table is nonsense, and as we saw a decade ago, players and fans don't respond well at all to "relegation" mid season. Players/supporters should know in December/January which competition they're playing in that year.
For Example...
If Wexford start the year in Sam Maguire, but narrowly lose the first round in Leinster.... expect an exodus of players taking the summer off to go to the US, etc.
... however....
If Wexford start the year knowing they're in a second tier competition, players and supporters will adapt expectations and be prepared for such a competition.

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 375 - 02/05/2019 18:56:45    2181513

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Have a tier 2 championship and segregate all the top teams and the lower teams. If this happens we will then hear the tier 2 teams complain about not having chances to play the bigger teams and playing pointless mickey mouse games. They say it wont happen and they wont complain but they will and they will be jealous they aren't part of the real thing, its only natural.

monaghanmad (Monaghan) - Posts: 412 - 02/05/2019 19:17:02    2181519

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Replying To monaghanmad:  "Have a tier 2 championship and segregate all the top teams and the lower teams. If this happens we will then hear the tier 2 teams complain about not having chances to play the bigger teams and playing pointless mickey mouse games. They say it wont happen and they wont complain but they will and they will be jealous they aren't part of the real thing, its only natural."
Hurling in Kildare is mostly played by immigrants from other counties working in Dublin, that's why it's mostly in north Kildare. I for one, growing up and even now, have never really cared how they got on or got excited about them, simply because they're never going to win a Liam McCarthy or get a crack at beating say Dublin or Wexford or whoever.. even the years they've done well and had strong teams of late (winning Christy Rings) they were never moved up and the cycle continues of me not caring. That's the sad reality of two defined tiers at the beginning of the year. There will always be passionate and die hard fans, but unless there's the hope of something big, something great, even if just a single upset, it's the sport that loses out within the lower tier counties.
Hurling is just one example. How many people here have a favored premier league soccer club before a local Irish one? The power of media and staging is huge. If you have neither that nor hope heading into a calendar year, expect the kids of your county to switch to soccer and rugby.

Sweetspot (Kildare) - Posts: 349 - 02/05/2019 19:58:50    2181531

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Replying To Sweetspot:  "Hurling in Kildare is mostly played by immigrants from other counties working in Dublin, that's why it's mostly in north Kildare. I for one, growing up and even now, have never really cared how they got on or got excited about them, simply because they're never going to win a Liam McCarthy or get a crack at beating say Dublin or Wexford or whoever.. even the years they've done well and had strong teams of late (winning Christy Rings) they were never moved up and the cycle continues of me not caring. That's the sad reality of two defined tiers at the beginning of the year. There will always be passionate and die hard fans, but unless there's the hope of something big, something great, even if just a single upset, it's the sport that loses out within the lower tier counties.
Hurling is just one example. How many people here have a favored premier league soccer club before a local Irish one? The power of media and staging is huge. If you have neither that nor hope heading into a calendar year, expect the kids of your county to switch to soccer and rugby."
Sweetspot, on behalf of that post of yours I apologise to all Kildare gaels, I am still this side of 30, I live in east Kildare , I don't belong to a senior club, first and foremost I am a hurling man, I had two choices, 1. To declare with Naas, 2. To declare with Sarsfields, I signed up with Sarsfields. I have a junior hurling championship medal which I treasure. I played some hurling with Carlow RTC with some of the greats of modern day hurling, at this stage the Liam McCarthy is far from my mind, you use the word immigrant loosely but unwisely,
I don't post here, mostly because I don't connect with most posts, I am a passionate hurling Kildare man, medals and cups are not important, I feel sorry for some that think otherwise.

Cuhullain (Kildare) - Posts: 302 - 02/05/2019 21:26:06    2181539

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