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A Tier 2 Championship For Football - Let's Give It A Go

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Replying To Offside_Rule: "run a seeded 32 team knockout championship competition. Five games to win it! No replays except maybe the final. This gives everyone a chance of winning the big prize and keeps the romance of the giant killing alive. The losers in the first two rounds could go in to another competition if there is an appetite for it. The provincials could be played before the summer and become a competition in their own right, but would have no bearing on the championship. That's the way I think it should be - a proper All Ireland competition. And like you say, the first round losers could play off a C Competition with the next round losers playing out a B Competition. Would mean Counties getting the 2 games they are guaranteed in the current format and also shorten the calendar a wee bit allowing the Club games a bit more elbow room too. Probably wouldn't be as profitable though so can't see it ever being a runner.... can but dream." It would be profitable, we have a lot more games now with qualifiers etc but most lose money according to the GAA, their financial statements back this up. I think there would be an increase in crowds at summer league games in nice weather, and then you've championship QF'S, SF's and Final at Croker same as now. Market it properly and there would be plenty of TV money following it too. The reason it couldn't happen is because of the provincial councils. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas as we all know. They would go mad at any suggestion of downgrading the provincials. GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2113 - 25/04/2019 15:41:21 2180232 Link
If the Provincials and a knockout AI were marketed right then it shouldn't lead to any loss of appeal to winning the Provincial crown. All Counties would still be going for two pieces of silverware at the beginning of the Championship season plus your top Counties in each would be wanting to build momentum for the AI which would follow. If they wanted to make sure they held their prestige then use them to give the teams at the business end of the Provincial seeding in the open AI draw. Also for many of the lower ranked Counties a Provincial title is a bit more aspirational than Sam Maguire would be so it would still be a coveted prize. Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 25/04/2019 15:52:54 2180235 Link
Replying To Htaem: "But this is the thing, would players 'bust their gut' for a second tier football championship? I know we have tiers in club football but I don't think you can really compare intercounty and club. Intercounty is the top level of our sport, it requires huge commitment, sacrifice, if you play for 10+ years you're doing very well and of course there's only ever really been 1 tier in championship football (with the odd token B championship down through the years, all of which failed). Club football is far more diverse, no doubt there are many players and offcials who put in huge effort and often do so for decades, but there's also a great social aspect to it. I know plenty of people still playing into their late 30s, early 40s because they enjoy the craic and the few points and also people in their 20s who aren't great players but want to stay fit and enjoy being part of their local team. They don't mind playing in the lower tiers (which btw have existed for years at club level), infact it suits them better, they're not training for an intercounty panel. Again I point to the fact that 3-4 years ago the GPA pointed out that overwhelmingly players from weaker counties didn't want a two tiered football championship, so why the dramatic u-turn?" I think a big thing that no one ever talks about is that not all 2 tier championships are created equally. The 2 tier championships that have always been mooted are poorly thought out competitions. They don't offer much for the weaker counties. They think about things from the wrong angle. It shouldn't be how do we create a second tier championship. It should be thought about: What is the best championship structure should we have. Does that involve then having the championship tiered. What is the point of having a second tier championship if the first tier championship itself is crap. You win a second tier championship and wow you get to play in this not particularly improved top tier competition, that you could be playing in all along anyway if there's no tier 2 competition. Why would anyone then want to play that tier 2 championship. Realistically also: The sort of teams that would be contesting a second tier championship are the sorts of teams that could already qualify for the super 8s. I'd argue that there's more prestige to reaching a super 8s stage than getting to win a second tier championship. The top tier championship is not good by the way. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4546 - 25/04/2019 16:06:01 2180237 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I think a big thing that no one ever talks about is that not all 2 tier championships are created equally. The 2 tier championships that have always been mooted are poorly thought out competitions. They don't offer much for the weaker counties. They think about things from the wrong angle. It shouldn't be how do we create a second tier championship. It should be thought about: What is the best championship structure should we have. Does that involve then having the championship tiered. What is the point of having a second tier championship if the first tier championship itself is crap. You win a second tier championship and wow you get to play in this not particularly improved top tier competition, that you could be playing in all along anyway if there's no tier 2 competition. Why would anyone then want to play that tier 2 championship. Realistically also: The sort of teams that would be contesting a second tier championship are the sorts of teams that could already qualify for the super 8s. I'd argue that there's more prestige to reaching a super 8s stage than getting to win a second tier championship. The top tier championship is not good by the way." Ah look I agree, I think everybodys focus should be on having the best possible championship and one which can benefit all teams. At the minute I think the football championship is a little bit of an outdated, convoluted mess and people seem fed up with it. The Gaa need to be more proactive on this though, they seem to prefer ignoring the issue and/or kicking the can down the road, rather than taking the bull by the horns and being leaders. Why not instruct every county board to submit their opinions on the issue, draft up 3, 4 or 5 etc restructure proposals based upon the feedback they were given then send them back out to the counties to decide. If the will is there then surely an organisation as big and as popular as the Gaa should be able to sort this issue out. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 25/04/2019 17:25:08 2180248 Link
Suggested format: Provincials and back door kept as they are. Round 1 back door qualifiers throw up 8 losers who enter a tier 4 'super 8' style competition. Round 2 back door qualifiers, the same, 8 losers form a tier 3 'super 8' mini championship. Rounds 3 and 4 throw up 4 losers each that form a tier 2 'super 8' mini championship. Round 4 winners and provincial winners form super 8's as always. Pros: -Provincials are left as they are, for the traditionalists. -every match is important for every county. Another forum talks about Leitrim's impossible Connaught task, with this, even winning one match might increase their chances of being in a higher tier, same for London.. Wicklow.. Waterford.. etc.. -We all know the league is more competitive and the matches are better, such will be true here too. -counties will have a rough idea of the length of their inter county season long in advance of summer and can organize club fixtures accordingly. Cons: I'm sure there's loads and I'm being too optimistic so, you tell me Sweetspot (Kildare) - Posts: 349 - 25/04/2019 18:46:01 2180263 Link
The GAA & Sky rubbing their hands as this is the direction they want to go, the elite Premier League set up with more TV rights & money for both. Meanwhile the Tier 2 counties will regress at a tsunami rate, how many companies will invest sponsorship money in a Tier 2 county who won't feature in media or TV, a three card trick. Uimhir.a.3. (Galway) - Posts: 409 - 25/04/2019 20:53:20 2180280 Link
Tier 2 championships have been tried many times and always fail. There are effectively 4 tiers in football so why not embrace them. Seed all the provincials based on league and get rid of the qualifiers Losing provincial preliminary rds and q finals - tier 3 of 16 teams - 4 groups of 4 (open draw) - winner into All Ireland q final Losing semi finalists into tier 2 comp - 2 x groups of 4 (open draw)- group winner play off for all Ireland q final spot 8 provincial finalists into super 8 - top 2 into semi finals - 2nd 2 into q finals Tier 2 and 3 winners regain entry to tier 1 championship so won't get forgotten about All group games are 1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral - tier 2 and tier 3 finals played in croker. The worst 8 counties would have 4 games minimum The next 8 would have 5 The next 8 would get 4/5 The best counties would have 5/6 games minimum Currently 16 counties only get 2/3 games from March onwards. Those that make super 8 get 5/6 games min so inequality is magnified every year as weak counties can't develop players Get rid of April club month and introduce 4 specific club championship weekends - 1 in every month through the summer- this will push All Ireland final into early September. Seed provincial club championship so counties playing in August/September get buys in early rounds and the whole season can still be wrapped up by December. Change the football league to groups of 6 if there are too many games tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1412 - 26/04/2019 04:00:50 2180320 Link
It is time to put an end to the provincial championships. Kerry and Dublin won't have a competitive game until the Super 8s. Only Ulster and Connaught have a some what competitive provincial championship. The league is more competitive than the All Ireland Championships so I suggest merging the league and championship. Merge and seed divisions 1&2, 3&4 seed the teams 1-16 and divide them up into odds and evens divisions. (Division 1 A & 1B Divisions 2 A & 2B) The top 2 teams in divisions 1 A & 1 B go directly into Super 8s. 3rd and 4th placed teams play the top 2 teams in the divisions 2 A & 2B who are also promoted. The bottom 2 teams in the first divisions are relegated to the 2nd divisions. Then the All Ireland championship would played in the super 8s. It would be similar system to American football where you have a regular season followed by the playoffs JuniorBee (Mayo) - Posts: 40 - 26/04/2019 05:50:52 2180324 Link
Replying To woops: "For a Tier2 championship to work you need the teams separated at the start of the season. lets take Carlow footballers for example. You cant have them at the start of the year aiming to make a Leinster semi or final and then demote them to a Tier2 championship if they lost the 1st round of the Leinster. the players would have no interest in a B Championship after putting all their efforts into the A Championship initially. This would lead to players dropping off the panel , going to America etc Teams need to be in their respective tier at the start of the year and know if they win it out then they will get promoted just like we see with club championships. So come January when players are bursting their gut they know they are training to win the Tier2 championship and they wont lose players to America or just drop off the panel midway through the season. This would lead to provincial championships getting scrapped at Senior intercounty level but are they really worthwhile anymore" I don't agree that teams need to be separated at the start of the season. You could have an All Ireland Championship where teams all start on the road to Sam in their Provincial championships. You'd have a 2 tier championship though. 2 groups of 8 in each tier. Winner of the second tier championship gets a place in Championship 1 the following season. There's a real reward to winning a tier 2 championship. 7 games in the top championship the following season. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4546 - 26/04/2019 07:01:50 2180327 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I don't agree that teams need to be separated at the start of the season. You could have an All Ireland Championship where teams all start on the road to Sam in their Provincial championships. You'd have a 2 tier championship though. 2 groups of 8 in each tier. Winner of the second tier championship gets a place in Championship 1 the following season. There's a real reward to winning a tier 2 championship. 7 games in the top championship the following season." See again, I think the problem with that sort of structure is you're going from having a league and a championship to having a league and another league. I'm not sure how the provincials fit into your proposal, so my apologies if I'm taking you up wrong here. We already have 4 groups of 8 in the form of 4 straight NFL divisions, which I think works very well and I hope the Gaa leaves it alone. The championship is a mess and needs changing but I honently don't like the 2 tiers with 2 groups of 8 each idea. It's bascially turning the championship into the old league format, 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B. I think if this was the favoured option then we'd be better off holding the provincials in spring and moving the league to the summer and remarketing it as the championship. #noto2leagues :-) Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/04/2019 11:04:05 2180350 Link
I would get rid of back door and go back to the old way, once beaten your out. The standard of football is poor and the never ending handpass is boring. Bernardo (Monaghan) - Posts: 611 - 26/04/2019 11:22:28 2180356 Link
Replying To Htaem: "See again, I think the problem with that sort of structure is you're going from having a league and a championship to having a league and another league. I'm not sure how the provincials fit into your proposal, so my apologies if I'm taking you up wrong here. We already have 4 groups of 8 in the form of 4 straight NFL divisions, which I think works very well and I hope the Gaa leaves it alone. The championship is a mess and needs changing but I honently don't like the 2 tiers with 2 groups of 8 each idea. It's bascially turning the championship into the old league format, 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B. I think if this was the favoured option then we'd be better off holding the provincials in spring and moving the league to the summer and remarketing it as the championship. #noto2leagues :-)" Oh sorry, I'd get rid of the National Leagues. Sorry that wasn't clear. I agree there shouldn't be 2 leagues. The championship should be more of a league based competition. Played June, July, August after April, May Provincial championships. 1 club weekend in each code should be played in each of those 3 months. All Ireland and Provincial club should be February and March. Intercounty preseason takes place then. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4546 - 26/04/2019 11:35:39 2180357 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "Oh sorry, I'd get rid of the National Leagues. Sorry that wasn't clear. I agree there shouldn't be 2 leagues. The championship should be more of a league based competition. Played June, July, August after April, May Provincial championships. 1 club weekend in each code should be played in each of those 3 months. All Ireland and Provincial club should be February and March. Intercounty preseason takes place then." I can certainly see merit in what you're saying, because the NFL is now an excellent competition, 10-15 years ago I would have been a little dismissive of it but not anymore. I too favour a league format in the championship but a very different one. I'd like to see 8 groups of 4 (1 team from each NFL division per group), 3 group games each, top 2 in each group into a last 16 KO. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/04/2019 14:12:27 2180405 Link
Replying To Htaem: "I can certainly see merit in what you're saying, because the NFL is now an excellent competition, 10-15 years ago I would have been a little dismissive of it but not anymore. I too favour a league format in the championship but a very different one. I'd like to see 8 groups of 4 (1 team from each NFL division per group), 3 group games each, top 2 in each group into a last 16 KO." It is similar to the system that the GPA put forward a few years ago. It would have buy in from the players. I like it too. The only downside I see is that it only guarantees teams 3 games. They would be well scheduled. Club games could be easily fit around them. You'd probably have the division 4 seeds always host the division 1 seeds. It'd mean a big game every year for the little guy in front of a home crowd. Could be good for attracting a crowd. It could definitely be exciting also. It is a mini World Cup. You could get the odd massive game in round 2 where say a division 1 team got shocked in a group game and only came second. That sort of straight forward fair competition could work really well. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4546 - 26/04/2019 15:07:40 2180421 Link
Replying To Htaem: "I can certainly see merit in what you're saying, because the NFL is now an excellent competition, 10-15 years ago I would have been a little dismissive of it but not anymore. I too favour a league format in the championship but a very different one. I'd like to see 8 groups of 4 (1 team from each NFL division per group), 3 group games each, top 2 in each group into a last 16 KO." How would that help the weaker teams Htaem? neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 26/04/2019 15:17:16 2180427 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "It is similar to the system that the GPA put forward a few years ago. It would have buy in from the players. I like it too. The only downside I see is that it only guarantees teams 3 games. They would be well scheduled. Club games could be easily fit around them. You'd probably have the division 4 seeds always host the division 1 seeds. It'd mean a big game every year for the little guy in front of a home crowd. Could be good for attracting a crowd. It could definitely be exciting also. It is a mini World Cup. You could get the odd massive game in round 2 where say a division 1 team got shocked in a group game and only came second. That sort of straight forward fair competition could work really well." I actually thought there was too many games with the GPA's proposal (6 per team), and too many teams qualifying. They had 24 making it through to the KO stages and only 8 teams eliminated at the group stages, this seemed like a lot to me especially if we're retaining the NFL as a seperate competition. But then again, the GPA done their research and players want games so, there's fair bit to consider, not least the impact on the club scene. Also I was thinking the exact same, the div4 team should always host the div1 team (unless their ground is deemed unsafe to do so). I like the straightforward world cup style competition, I think it would be a good fit for the Gaa. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/04/2019 16:36:05 2180443 Link
Replying To neverright: "How would that help the weaker teams Htaem?" Well look I don't think there's a silver bullet solution to helping weaker teams, it's a process that requires a lot of hard work and effort on all sides. Do you have a favoured championship format yourself? Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/04/2019 17:03:28 2180447 Link
Replying To Htaem: "I actually thought there was too many games with the GPA's proposal (6 per team), and too many teams qualifying. They had 24 making it through to the KO stages and only 8 teams eliminated at the group stages, this seemed like a lot to me especially if we're retaining the NFL as a seperate competition. But then again, the GPA done their research and players want games so, there's fair bit to consider, not least the impact on the club scene. Also I was thinking the exact same, the div4 team should always host the div1 team (unless their ground is deemed unsafe to do so). I like the straightforward world cup style competition, I think it would be a good fit for the Gaa." I understood the GPA's proposal to only involve 3 games each. 6 games each would be weird. I agree I didn't like the 24 teams through piece. In terms of what it offers weaker counties, you're talking a guaranteed extra game (although maybe that's not great if a team loses their opening 2 games.) The calls for a 2nd tier competition are not a silver bullet either. I mean you can't just create a cup competition out of nowhere and expect it to have prestige which is what I think is happening somewhat. I like the National League in its current guise also. It just wouldn't be appropriate to have the All Ireland only open to 8 teams. I also don't like systems where lower division can jump ahead of teams in higher divisions to qualify for playoffs. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4546 - 26/04/2019 17:15:28 2180450 Link
Replying To Htaem: "Well look I don't think there's a silver bullet solution to helping weaker teams, it's a process that requires a lot of hard work and effort on all sides. Do you have a favoured championship format yourself?" Find some way to get the weaker counties playing against the stronger. Even though they'll start with a nice few hidings eventually standards will improve for the counties who put the work in to improve. My own naive thought is to scrap the existing provincial leagues and league. Have a league, a bit along the lines of Htaem's proposal of leagues within championship. 4 divisions with 2 teams from each current division. Each division winner goes to league semi finals. Then open draw provincials and a separate knockout open draw All Ireland championship. Close the back door for good, no second chances. League the next year goes to 4 divisions seeded similar to previous year. The worst and best in each division. Year on year the gap between strongest and weakest should reduce. An All Ireland not a small Ireland and a rest of Ireland. GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8025 - 26/04/2019 17:25:58 2180453 Link
I think it's needed, give it a go for a few years, sell different broadcasting rights to it as well, it will work only if given proper care unlike the previous "B" compititions, hate saying this, but Cork will probably be in it with there current form going down to Division 3 PyatPree (Cork) - Posts: 376 - 26/04/2019 18:03:10 2180461 Link