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GAA Should Campaign For A United Ireland.

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Replying To yew_tree:  "The GAA should stick to the sport and nothing else but that's just my opinion.

Emotionally we would all Love to see Ireland united someday but I don't think the time is right....looking at what century the DUP are living in, and the planet many unionists live on where it's all flags, the past, complete and utter nonsense then I fail to see where a United Ireland can come about in the short to medium term."
But the GAA doesn't stick to sport as it is.

It promotes the Irish language, which is a very live political issue.

It promotes knowledge of Irish history, music and dance through the scór competitions.

It has an Official Guide which takes a very clear line on the political divisions in Ireland.

Up until recently enough, members of the security forces in the North were banned from playing gaelic games, as were "foreign games" from taking place on GAA property.

I get why people are aghast at the ignorance and the bigotry on display from the likes of the DUP, TUV etc. But the way that the demographics are moving, a United Ireland may well be approaching in the coming decades, and it may not be the worst idea o have some sort of idea what that might throw up and to plan accordingly.

Because let's face it, going on recent history, foresight isn't an Irish strong suit, at least among those leading the country. Fail to prepare....

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 12/03/2019 22:50:19    2171961

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Replying To cavanman47:  "
Replying To supermon:  "[quote=cavanman47:  "Yes, it is a party political issue in the north - I should have clarified that.


But my point is this -

In the 1921 election, Sinn Fein won 124 of 128 seats - an absolute landslide. The party had one goal in mind at that time - a united Ireland completely separate from British rule.

The treaty was then negotiated and in early 1922, the Dail ratified the treaty in a tight vote, with the threat of a horrific, unwinnable war against Britain hanging over us (64 for, 57 against).

Sinn Fein separated as a result and GF and FF were founded. But you knew all that.


So. . . no matter what your political affinity; if you are an Irish man or woman with ancestral lines dating back only a century, you are born of a nation which is on the path to, but yet to realize its goal.

It is utterly shameful to see some on here (who are not of the unionist persuasion) who would happily see our country remain divided.



As for whether the GAA should take a stance - I 100% feel they should as they represent a huge part of what any united Ireland would look like, and, it could be argued, would provide the greatest opportunity for cross-community reconciliation. Sport has a history of uniting people and they are the biggest sporting organisation on this island by a million miles.

You feel they shouldn't and I understand your reasoning."
Shameful? Why? For having a different opinion than yours?

Is there something more Irish about a citizen that can trace his or her famiky back century? Why not back to Brian Boru for good measure?

I consider myself a republican, but I'm not into jingoism.

I leave that kind of atttitude to the Brexiteers."
.

Firstly, I wasn't referring to you as you haven't indicated that you feel that way.


Secondly, no, I wouldn't deem those people more Irish, but if your grandparents/great-grandparents were here in the 1920s, then they, in their overwhelming majority, democratically voted for a mandate for an independent united Ireland. When we get the opportunity, we should honour that."]Many voters no longer vote on their families historic political lines. The days of overall majorities in Leinster House seem to be over as people vote more for candidates rather than parties. So I think a vote on a United Ireland in North and South could largely be decided by how a yes or no vote puts money in people's pockets or takes it away. Contrary to popular belief some of the people that get up early for work find it tough to put food on the table. I can't see sentiment deciding it unless there are guarantees that voters won't need to pay the bill.

Why would someone in the 6 counties, say a civil servant, vote for it if they could lose their job in a merge of both civil services? Or why would a voter in the 26 counties vote yes if there was a threat of higher taxes to fund it? No financial expert can tell us how much this could cost and how it would be paid for, they can only speculate. With the help of God the EU could fund it and that makes a referendum voting decision easy. The secondary school education system would take at least 5 years to phase out one or other of Leaving Cert and A levels to be combined into one exam with lots of other considerations. In the event of a yes vote hopefully the government get the troika back,to be shown how to use resources more efficiently, because they're not doing so well on that since they left.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7982 - 12/03/2019 23:39:56    2171971

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This must make hard viewing for some Ulster Gaels.

I think we all need to understand why people would want the GAA to make a stance. The GAA is the corner stone or focal point of all Irish (republican) communities in NI. Its also these communities that we promised we would fight to get a united Ireland for, after the treaty. In a way the GAA has become a sort of 'Irish identity' because there was nothing else to hold on to.

For many years the GAA has evolved in different ways and is slowly becoming 'a sport' as opposed to a community like what I grew up in.

The change from community to 'a sport' is widespread now down south especially in the bigger urban areas where parts of the population have no interest in GAA and other sports have bigger influence.

While I agree that the GAA has no place in political agendas, this issue goes way beyond politics and gets into national identity which the GAA has a huge part in and should be very vocal on it, especially for these communities in NI. Comparisons with recent referendums is pointless as they have nothing got to do with being Irish.

Why do we all get so angry when someone in the states or around the globe says Ireland is part of the UK? There isn't one person on here that doesn't get pi**ed off at that. That's because we are all proud of our identity and how we fought for it. What some of us are basically saying (to those looking in) is that the GAA community has nothing got to do with being Irish and the organisation that they believe supports them being Irish is actually just a sport now....bit of a kick in the teeth if you ask me. So we all need to be careful in what we think the GAA means to different individuals and communities.

I would love to see a united Ireland myself and what an achievement that would be. It would be one of the biggest moments in modern history here and overseas. For it to happen however is not going to fall on the shoulders of the GAA and as people have suggested if we want it to happen sooner rather than later then the GAA being vocal is fuel to a dying flame as opposed to letting the politicians come together and making it an economical, social, standard of living decision.

The GAA can do other things however to move this in the right direction such as pumping money into the GAA communities in the North and supporting those communities to help them grow (Dublins big enough now ;) ).

To wrap it up, we all want unity and support our brethren in getting it, and I hope people don't take offence if we say that pushing it through the GAA is not the way to go. The stage has been set by the brexiteers if we remain vocal as individuals it wont be long at all.

SamT2012 (Donegal) - Posts: 66 - 13/03/2019 03:23:44    2171978

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Then you should ask them to change their stated values, in particular;

"We foster a clear sense of identity and place""
Ok enlighten me and I'm just playing devils advocate here. The unionists already and wrongly see us GAA members are terrorist supporting fenians. If the GAA takes a strong stance on a border poll
Now it will en flame their view of us.

What will a United Ireland look like? Emotative things like our anthem, flag, government structure, will all change...are we ready for loyalist Terror attacks north and south of the border?

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11565 - 13/03/2019 07:33:59    2171983

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "
Replying To cavanman47:  "[quote=supermon:  "[quote=cavanman47:  "Yes, it is a party political issue in the north - I should have clarified that.


But my point is this -

In the 1921 election, Sinn Fein won 124 of 128 seats - an absolute landslide. The party had one goal in mind at that time - a united Ireland completely separate from British rule.

The treaty was then negotiated and in early 1922, the Dail ratified the treaty in a tight vote, with the threat of a horrific, unwinnable war against Britain hanging over us (64 for, 57 against).

Sinn Fein separated as a result and GF and FF were founded. But you knew all that.


So. . . no matter what your political affinity; if you are an Irish man or woman with ancestral lines dating back only a century, you are born of a nation which is on the path to, but yet to realize its goal.

It is utterly shameful to see some on here (who are not of the unionist persuasion) who would happily see our country remain divided.



As for whether the GAA should take a stance - I 100% feel they should as they represent a huge part of what any united Ireland would look like, and, it could be argued, would provide the greatest opportunity for cross-community reconciliation. Sport has a history of uniting people and they are the biggest sporting organisation on this island by a million miles.

You feel they shouldn't and I understand your reasoning."
Shameful? Why? For having a different opinion than yours?

Is there something more Irish about a citizen that can trace his or her famiky back century? Why not back to Brian Boru for good measure?

I consider myself a republican, but I'm not into jingoism.

I leave that kind of atttitude to the Brexiteers."
.

Firstly, I wasn't referring to you as you haven't indicated that you feel that way.


Secondly, no, I wouldn't deem those people more Irish, but if your grandparents/great-grandparents were here in the 1920s, then they, in their overwhelming majority, democratically voted for a mandate for an independent united Ireland. When we get the opportunity, we should honour that."]Many voters no longer vote on their families historic political lines. The days of overall majorities in Leinster House seem to be over as people vote more for candidates rather than parties. So I think a vote on a United Ireland in North and South could largely be decided by how a yes or no vote puts money in people's pockets or takes it away. Contrary to popular belief some of the people that get up early for work find it tough to put food on the table. I can't see sentiment deciding it unless there are guarantees that voters won't need to pay the bill.

Why would someone in the 6 counties, say a civil servant, vote for it if they could lose their job in a merge of both civil services? Or why would a voter in the 26 counties vote yes if there was a threat of higher taxes to fund it? No financial expert can tell us how much this could cost and how it would be paid for, they can only speculate. With the help of God the EU could fund it and that makes a referendum voting decision easy. The secondary school education system would take at least 5 years to phase out one or other of Leaving Cert and A levels to be combined into one exam with lots of other considerations. In the event of a yes vote hopefully the government get the troika back,to be shown how to use resources more efficiently, because they're not doing so well on that since they left."]Best thing about a United Ireland would be the axing of Irish as a compulsory language.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 13/03/2019 09:16:01    2171987

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "
Replying To cavanman47:  "[quote=supermon:  "[quote=cavanman47:  "Yes, it is a party political issue in the north - I should have clarified that.


But my point is this -

In the 1921 election, Sinn Fein won 124 of 128 seats - an absolute landslide. The party had one goal in mind at that time - a united Ireland completely separate from British rule.

The treaty was then negotiated and in early 1922, the Dail ratified the treaty in a tight vote, with the threat of a horrific, unwinnable war against Britain hanging over us (64 for, 57 against).

Sinn Fein separated as a result and GF and FF were founded. But you knew all that.


So. . . no matter what your political affinity; if you are an Irish man or woman with ancestral lines dating back only a century, you are born of a nation which is on the path to, but yet to realize its goal.

It is utterly shameful to see some on here (who are not of the unionist persuasion) who would happily see our country remain divided.



As for whether the GAA should take a stance - I 100% feel they should as they represent a huge part of what any united Ireland would look like, and, it could be argued, would provide the greatest opportunity for cross-community reconciliation. Sport has a history of uniting people and they are the biggest sporting organisation on this island by a million miles.

You feel they shouldn't and I understand your reasoning."
Shameful? Why? For having a different opinion than yours?

Is there something more Irish about a citizen that can trace his or her famiky back century? Why not back to Brian Boru for good measure?

I consider myself a republican, but I'm not into jingoism.

I leave that kind of atttitude to the Brexiteers."
.

Firstly, I wasn't referring to you as you haven't indicated that you feel that way.


Secondly, no, I wouldn't deem those people more Irish, but if your grandparents/great-grandparents were here in the 1920s, then they, in their overwhelming majority, democratically voted for a mandate for an independent united Ireland. When we get the opportunity, we should honour that."]Many voters no longer vote on their families historic political lines. The days of overall majorities in Leinster House seem to be over as people vote more for candidates rather than parties. So I think a vote on a United Ireland in North and South could largely be decided by how a yes or no vote puts money in people's pockets or takes it away. Contrary to popular belief some of the people that get up early for work find it tough to put food on the table. I can't see sentiment deciding it unless there are guarantees that voters won't need to pay the bill.

Why would someone in the 6 counties, say a civil servant, vote for it if they could lose their job in a merge of both civil services? Or why would a voter in the 26 counties vote yes if there was a threat of higher taxes to fund it? No financial expert can tell us how much this could cost and how it would be paid for, they can only speculate. With the help of God the EU could fund it and that makes a referendum voting decision easy. The secondary school education system would take at least 5 years to phase out one or other of Leaving Cert and A levels to be combined into one exam with lots of other considerations. In the event of a yes vote hopefully the government get the troika back,to be shown how to use resources more efficiently, because they're not doing so well on that since they left."].

That's a fair post.

But how can you expect any economist to do anything other than speculate when there is no clear vision of how a united Ireland would work, who pays for what, etc. ?

We are far more politically aware in this country than Britain, for example, and so I can't see a border poll taking place unless either;

a) it is a non-binding step towards a referendum (or series of) determining the details of how we move forward, merge 2 governments, merge departments, move the workforce around, etc, or

b) all of the above is clearly outlined to the electorate prior to any border poll


Option a is too likely to lead to a similar impasse as we are currently seeing across the water, so I think a hell of a lot of thrashing out (and subsequent economic feasibility assessing) would have to take place before a poll is put to the people. Then an informed decision can be made.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5246 - 13/03/2019 09:21:05    2171988

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We should ASK the questions, why not, it is feasible, according to both the Vancover Institute of Commerce and Harvard business School who did detailed economic analysis of the economic prospects of a United Ireland - they both said we would we better off...

Of course Europe would have to intervene, but we are talking of a population of 1.7 million not 10/20 million.
The rugby/hockey teams have seen success with a untied cause...
Currently according to Irish Revenue there are 80,000 6 county residents working in the south and growing.
But is there a will, probably not if Fianna Fail gets back in - they want there power base and don't want it diluted with 750,000 non FF voters,
We need the Unionist in a new Ireland - in 1921 the Irish Unionst stayed , some drifed out of politics , some joined FG and some became more Irish than the Irish, such as Guinness...
The Union Jack wasn't taken down in 1921 but in fact still flown in 1960's Dublin, Charlie Haughey came to prominance when his famous march to Trinity College to take the Union jack down!!!

I want a united Ireland - not for ideological reasons, but i want my children growing up knowing freedom of expression and though is appreciated..... we are still a second class citizen in the north. Just this week the DUP marched into the town of Ballynahinch with 'hooded men' and demand that SF not canvas in the town - as it was a unionst town - yes 100yrs ago but today it is a divided 50/50....
Time is moving on and now is time to have these discussions.... and the GAA have to be part of it...

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1688 - 13/03/2019 10:49:16    2172002

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Replying To yew_tree:  "
Replying To cavanman47:  "Then you should ask them to change their stated values, in particular;

"We foster a clear sense of identity and place""
Ok enlighten me and I'm just playing devils advocate here. The unionists already and wrongly see us GAA members are terrorist supporting fenians. If the GAA takes a strong stance on a border poll
Now it will en flame their view of us.

What will a United Ireland look like? Emotative things like our anthem, flag, government structure, will all change...are we ready for loyalist Terror attacks north and south of the border?"
.

I understand you're only playing devil's advocate. I'll address your points.


Yes, unionists are wrong in viewing us and the GAA in that way. Not a huge amount more the GAA can do about that - they promote inclusiveness, have invited first ministers (leaders of unionist parties) to games, and broadcast their games in Britain as well as in Ireland. If anything, the GAA paints one of the biggest windows into the future of an all-Ireland society as it has always been an all-ire land organisation (as opposed to their soccer counterparts for example).

Yes, our anthem would have to change obviously. Would anyone, even one person, allow this to change their mind and vote down a border poll? I think it's a fair trade-off for not hearing GSTQ anymore when IRISH teams take to the field for soccer games.

It is a huge shame that the flag would have to change, as it is a perfect symbol of what a united Ireland should be about - peace and harmony between green and orange. (Likewise it's a shame that the tri-colour is regularly burnt on 12th July in a direct breach of the Good Friday agreement). But given that it has been used in IRA funerals, it will obviously have to go, as will the union jack. I don't know of a flag used throughout Irish history that represents both unionists and nationalists, so a new flag would be needed. I am 100% on one side of the border poll argument but can completely understand and accept this.

Neither government are covering themselves in glory. The parties, as another poster pointed out, would all have their grass-root support diluted (with the possible exception of SF) but the very essence of democracy states that the people decide, not the political elite. There would be an all-Ireland election, with similarly sized constituencies to the current ones, and the likelihood is that a 2 party government would lead the first parliament.

Terrorist attacks - the very function of the GFA is to maintain peace, to park the push for a United Ireland until there is consensus among the majority in the 6 counties for a border poll. Both sides are largely (and almost completely) adhering to this. They should continue to do so regardless of the result of any poll.
How confident am I that this would be the case? Not overly so. . .but are we then saying that we will allow the threat of terror to derail democracy?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5246 - 13/03/2019 12:21:46    2172025

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The south has moved on in many ways, we are now a multi cultural, Liberal, tolerant and vibrant society. For many people in our new Republic, the concept of patriotism and nationalism simply doesn't register with them, particularly the youth who have no real interest in the idea of a unified Ireland, and see themselves as Europeans in this new era of globalisation.

So the supporters of a unified Ireland will have to push very hard to get people thinking about the issue, sheer sentiment isn't going to cut it, nor will a romantic notion of four green fields.

Just because the GAA is a cultural nationalist organisation doesn't equate to supporting irish unity either. I believe a lot of people would be very shocked at the results of a border poll in the south. I suspect it would pass, but not by as much as people may expect.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 13/03/2019 15:33:48    2172060

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Cavan_Shambles (Cavan)- You say 'the south has moved on in many ways'- does that include all the people being put out of their homes and the closing down of rural Ireland.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 13/03/2019 17:05:38    2172076

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "The south has moved on in many ways, we are now a multi cultural, Liberal, tolerant and vibrant society. For many people in our new Republic, the concept of patriotism and nationalism simply doesn't register with them, particularly the youth who have no real interest in the idea of a unified Ireland, and see themselves as Europeans in this new era of globalisation.

So the supporters of a unified Ireland will have to push very hard to get people thinking about the issue, sheer sentiment isn't going to cut it, nor will a romantic notion of four green fields.

Just because the GAA is a cultural nationalist organisation doesn't equate to supporting irish unity either. I believe a lot of people would be very shocked at the results of a border poll in the south. I suspect it would pass, but not by as much as people may expect."
Recent opinion polls indicate it would pass by a significant majority,
perhaps you know better.

fainleog (Limerick) - Posts: 602 - 13/03/2019 17:11:01    2172077

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Replying To browncows:  "Cavan_Shambles (Cavan)- You say 'the south has moved on in many ways'- does that include all the people being put out of their homes and the closing down of rural Ireland."
I mean in cultural terms. On any political discussion I've ever heard living in Dublin, nobody ever mentions Irish unity. It simply isn't on most people's radar, brexit or not. Furthermore more of our young people are embracing a new European identity in this more tolerant, progressive, globalised world. The reality is, modern Ireland is casting off its past, and I suggest this includes romantic notions of Irish unity.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 13/03/2019 17:20:24    2172082

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Replying To fainleog:  "Recent opinion polls indicate it would pass by a significant majority,
perhaps you know better."
Which is why I said I suspect it would pass. If you had any inkling about political referenda in Ireland you'd know that polls tend to narrow significantly as voting day looms.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 13/03/2019 17:21:33    2172084

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Which is why I said I suspect it would pass. If you had any inkling about political referenda in Ireland you'd know that polls tend to narrow significantly as voting day looms."
The last 5 were fairly one-sided and no sign of change as voting day loomed!

FOB (Dublin) - Posts: 912 - 13/03/2019 17:56:47    2172091

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Replying To FOB:  "The last 5 were fairly one-sided and no sign of change as voting day loomed!"
They're opinion polls based on a poll that may never happen. I'd be surprised if over 90% didn't say they'd vote yes to a United Ireland. But nobody knows what the circumstances would be at the time of the poll. We're not even sure this week if there'll be a deal or no deal Brexit or even any Brexit.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7982 - 13/03/2019 18:04:38    2172092

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Replying To FOB:  "The last 5 were fairly one-sided and no sign of change as voting day loomed!"
Literally the complete opposite is true, except for the referendum on the 8th, where polls were somewhat accurate.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 13/03/2019 19:54:45    2172108

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Which is why I said I suspect it would pass. If you had any inkling about political referenda in Ireland you'd know that polls tend to narrow significantly as voting day looms."
Opinion polls are a measure of opinion at a point in time and support
for that view can increase or decrease. It is not surprising that
recent opinion polls are so positive in regard to a United Ireland in
the Republic of Ireland, as of course there would be a welcome for
our fellow Gaels and others who want to share our great country.

fainleog (Limerick) - Posts: 602 - 13/03/2019 20:11:02    2172111

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Replying To fainleog:  "Opinion polls are a measure of opinion at a point in time and support
for that view can increase or decrease. It is not surprising that
recent opinion polls are so positive in regard to a United Ireland in
the Republic of Ireland, as of course there would be a welcome for
our fellow Gaels and others who want to share our great country."
Polls were positive for Clinton too. And the remain side.

Take them with a pinch of salt.

What are your thoughts on our new European identity and shedding our past?

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 13/03/2019 20:49:49    2172118

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Would the Queen be a joint head of State with Micki D Higgins? Fairs fair.
Didn't they say in the early 20's that the border was a stepping stone...here we are 100 years later and it's still there. Lets get real. It ll be there for many years to come and I dont see any problem with that. When we spout this nonsense about a United Ireland all we are doing is encouraging people to undermine the Northern Assembly. Let the good people of Northern Ireland get on with governing themselves. What would be the benefit of us all being governed from Dublin? If I had my way Munster would break away from Ireland but then I wouldn't want to be governed from Cork...

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 13/03/2019 20:58:34    2172119

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GAA would be better off trying to promote hurling in 32 counties!

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1920 - 13/03/2019 21:54:15    2172132

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