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Why Are We Changing Our Game?!

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "Attendances have dropped. Thats a fact. Attendances peaked in the 00s. Thats a fact. The reason the GAA brought in Super 8 was extra games to push up the revenue. The attendances are dropping every year. They brought in Super 8 more games to push up attendances , for more revenue. Attendances have dropped. Thats a fact. If you dont believe facts. Well. What can more can I say.

An era in sport is easily defined. The 60s , the 70s, the 80s , the 90s , the 00s. Every sports look at teams of decade. Who was the team of sixties. Great debate at the time was it Galway or Down. When people talk about 70s its all about kerry and Dublin. When people talk about 90s they talk about Ulster teams. Who was the team of the 00s was it kerry or Tyrone. Another great football debate. 10 years is a good size for an era. In life in politics in sport people particularly sport era can be defined in decades. Who was the team of thr 60s who was the team of the 00s is a debate talked in pubs forums tv studios newspaper articles for years etc. When RTE sport had its series greatest moments in Irish sport how did they divide the era and great moments. They had a series on 60s ( Arkle) a series on the 70s ( Munster 78 ) , a series on 80s ( Darbys goal ) , a series on 90s ( Italia 90 ) and series on 00s ( Grand Slam 09). I hope that makes sense."
That wasnt my point though, attendances in particular games have dropped i would absolutely acknowledge that, The Leinster final for example is a turkey shoot now and obviously three quarter finals and traveling involved have seen single games attendances drop.

My point was though, because teams are playing more games through the qualifiers and quarterfinals, more people are attending games then historically. Its higher frequency of games for less volume but cumulatively more people are attending football matches then historically in my opinion, its just spread out more. Certainly this is the case in the league and i would say across the league and the champions more people are going to games cumulatively then they were historically. To be honest i think its only right that say someone from Sligo watch Sligo in the qualifiers rather then going to watch the Leinster final for example or maybe the Connacht final. Games dont need to be funnelled into the elite, sure thats the very point of the association.

Ah ok, i think it varies really, for example you hear people talk about Kerry teams of the 70/80's or Meath team of the 80's/90s. It just strikes me as a very subjective thing depending on the point you are making. I think your grouping is interesting you are listing players from two decades Vs 7 years. Why not list say teams of the 80's and 90's VS 00's and 10's, the overlap of players playing in these times is more then likely accurate, many of the players you listed played in this era, yet you have them in noughties. Just an observation on an equity.

I often find peoples peoples description of the noughties interesting, it seems its looked back on hindsight as a terrific era. To be perfectly honest i find that a bit humorous, as i see a tangent between "the end of days" comments we see now and remember them about during that era. I remember how Gaelic footbal was being ruined, turned into Rugby by being over physical, defensive football would see attendances drop and people were turning away from the game because of "Puke Football", poor example to underage etc.

Now its considered a great era perhaps there is a lesson to be learned there.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4516 - 06/12/2018 14:42:00    2153508

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Replying To TheUsername:  "That wasnt my point though, attendances in particular games have dropped i would absolutely acknowledge that, The Leinster final for example is a turkey shoot now and obviously three quarter finals and traveling involved have seen single games attendances drop.

My point was though, because teams are playing more games through the qualifiers and quarterfinals, more people are attending games then historically. Its higher frequency of games for less volume but cumulatively more people are attending football matches then historically in my opinion, its just spread out more. Certainly this is the case in the league and i would say across the league and the champions more people are going to games cumulatively then they were historically. To be honest i think its only right that say someone from Sligo watch Sligo in the qualifiers rather then going to watch the Leinster final for example or maybe the Connacht final. Games dont need to be funnelled into the elite, sure thats the very point of the association.

Ah ok, i think it varies really, for example you hear people talk about Kerry teams of the 70/80's or Meath team of the 80's/90s. It just strikes me as a very subjective thing depending on the point you are making. I think your grouping is interesting you are listing players from two decades Vs 7 years. Why not list say teams of the 80's and 90's VS 00's and 10's, the overlap of players playing in these times is more then likely accurate, many of the players you listed played in this era, yet you have them in noughties. Just an observation on an equity.

I often find peoples peoples description of the noughties interesting, it seems its looked back on hindsight as a terrific era. To be perfectly honest i find that a bit humorous, as i see a tangent between "the end of days" comments we see now and remember them about during that era. I remember how Gaelic footbal was being ruined, turned into Rugby by being over physical, defensive football would see attendances drop and people were turning away from the game because of "Puke Football", poor example to underage etc.

Now its considered a great era perhaps there is a lesson to be learned there."
I think one Pat Spillane comment is being blown up a bit there in relation to the 00's Username. It's true people complained a bit about defensive football etc but we had nowhere near, and I mean absolutely nowhere near the level of dissatisfaction and apathy that we have today where every podcast and every panel and pub discussion is dominated with talk of what is wrong with the game.

I myself watch far less football than I used to because I don't like all the hand passing and slow build up play, and I just find it hard to get excited about games that don't involve my own county any more.

I can understand why somebody from Dublin would think everything is fine but there are very serious issues with the game IMO.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2113 - 06/12/2018 15:24:18    2153511

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "If the thread goes off in another direction what harm is that. There are no rules or regulations againsts talking about other things then what the original thread was about. Is there any harm in that."
No it's fine. I agree there were some great players.

Some great forwards. I appreciate the current crop too though.

I actually think the forward play is of an incredibly high standard. It's changed, there's less playmakers and nice to look at ball being played in. It is still incredible how some players can make space for themselves and how certain teams can combine nicely to create chances.

Colm McManus is playing at as high a level as anyone of the past.

Clifford has so much potential.

He gets slated as only a free taker but Dean Rock is an incredibly intelligent forward. In the era of mass defense it truely fantastic how often he has 5m of space to himself to slip over a handy point.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 06/12/2018 16:00:11    2153517

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Replying To Mobot:  "Furlong, I think you have actually strengthened my original point on one of the reasons attendances have dropped. Games were competitive in the 90's and 00's because you had so many teams at a similar level and today Dublin (The greatest team ever to play the game) have taken the game to a level never seen before and teams outside of Mayo have struggled to get to that level. Games in the 90's were straight knockout and when the back door was first introduced teams that rarely got to play in Croke Park made it more often and there was a novelty to that in the 00's which has worn off now. Look at the 2014 all ireland semi final between Dublin and Donegal (Croke Park was a sell out) people were excited by the prospect of this game even though the 2011 fixture was one of the poorest spectacles ever seen in football history as it was built up to be the great attack v the great defence and the game did not disappoint. The first 20 minutes from Dublin still remains the best football I've ever seen played. People say that the 2011 game between the two changed the landscape of football but for me it was the game in 2014 because Jim Gavin is a great coach and learned a lot of lessons in that game with the main one being that they will not take risks unless it's a last resort. And if we get back to the whole point of the thread we need to encourage more risk taking by giving a the attacking side more options in possession not less.

In respect of the list of players you listed off from years gone by of course they were great players and are legends of the game but you could argue with they all be able to have as much impact now? Also, are you telling me that players like Brian Fenton, James McCarthy, Bernard and Alan Brogan, Diarmuid Connolly, Colm Cooper, Paul Geaney, David Moran, Sean and Colm Cavanagh, Karl Lacey, Michael Murphy, Frank McGlynn, Ryan McHugh, Damien Comer, Shane Walsh, Ian Burke, Keith Higgins, Aidan O'Shea, Andy Moran, Gary Brennan, Jamie Clarke, Gearoid McKiernan, Daniel Flynn, Conor McManus, Neil McGee, Cian O'Sullivan, Philly McMahon, Lee Keegan, Donal Keogan, Colm Boyle, Aidan O'Mahony, Brendan Murphy, Paul Broderick, Mark Lynch and plenty of others from recent times wouldn't of been stars of the game 20 years ago?? Not to mention the likes of Stephen Cluxton and Rory Beggan who have brought the art of goalkeeping to a ridiculous new level never seen before.

The big gap for me is detail and level of coaching. The game is way more tactical than it was and because of this we sometimes don't see the individual talent of our current top stars as they are double or trebled marked nowadays. I do think the game will become more appealing in years to come when other coaches can come up with a better ideas to close the gap on this great Dublin team. It is also a time for a tiered championship because it must be hard for D3 and D4 teams playing D1 teams in championship knowing that it's a limiting the damage exercise."
I agree with some parts eg tiered competition . But other parts not.

Firstly if players are good enough they will display skills. To blame coachs because players cannot display greatness, great players in any sport overcome the obstacles they face thats why they are great players. Some people in sports had to overcome poverty, competition of millions playing their sport yet they exceed why because of their greatness.

Sorry for taking the thread in a different direction. But here I go anyway. I just want to respond to a few points.

There is a difference between my list and ur list. Ur naming players some well known in this era brillant players in this era some Allot of players I mentioned are all.time greats , great in any era.
Lets look at lists.

Yes Dublin B Brogan Connolly Cluxtons are greats. The Dubs are full of greats. Cluxton the greatest goalkeeper of all time , Connolly one of most talented Dublin players ever , Bernard Brogan is greatest Dublin forward of last 30 years and in top 3 Dublin forwards since 74. And one of the great forwards of last 30 years. Mcarthy Sullivan McMahon are some best defenders of last 20 or 30 years. And Fenton could become as great as Mullins or J O Se. McCaffrey could and is becoming one of great number 7 and could overtake Martin O Connell as one of the greatest. Kilkenny will go down as one greatest forwards of last 20 or 30 years. And Callaghan and Mannion could end up as great forwards Callaghan has the potential to be a truly great player. That Dublin team has serious amout of great players but thats why they are one greatest teams ever and cud soon become the greatest.

Lee Keegan is one best players Mayo have ever produced. One of the best number 5 in last 30 or 40 years. One of the most talented players to come from Connacht in 30 years or more. Kieth Higgins is also great defender as good as we have seen at corner back in last 30 years.

Michael Murphy is a modern great and will go down as one great Ulster forwards up there with Mickey lindens. Karl lacey was a great centre back and will also one of great centre backs up there with Kieran McGeeney and Henry Downey.
Other players you mentioned you cannot say they are all.time great compared to some players I mentioned. Conor McManus is one best forwards of last 30 years.

Now some of them still have a couple of years left. Shane Walsh and Comer are brillant footballers. But no way are in the league of Donnellan or Joyce. Donnellan was footballer of the year at 21 , all.star at 21 winning an All Ireland for Galway at 21. Shane Walsh is only startin to make a real impact in his mid 20s. Comer is a brillant player but he is no way near the level of a Joyce. When Comer scores 11 points in an All Ireland final to win Galway Sam then he wil be at Joyces level, until then Joyce is a greater player. Ask any true Galway supporter the great forwards of Galway football and they will mention Purcell McDonagh Donnellan Joyce Fallon. Walsh and Comer have a long way to go before they reach that level.

You mention Paul Geaney. A brillant footballer. But again he cannot be considered up there with true great kerry inside forwards. Greats like Mikey Sheedy Maurice Fitzgerald and Colm Cooper. Colm Cooper won 5 out of his 6 All Irelands in 00s. His era was 00s. Thats were he won 5 of his All-Irelands and achieved true greatness. If you said to any kerry supporter that Paul Geaney or James Donoghue or at the level of Mikey Sheedy Maurice Fitzgerald or Colm Cooper they would laugh at you. Sheedy Fitzgerald and Cooper are considered as three of the greatest forwards of all.time. Are u saying Paul Geaney is one greatest forwards of all time ?

You mentioned David Moran. Great player for this decade. But again no one in kerry wud have in up there with Jack O Se. Jack O Se is considered by many to be greatest footballer ever. Wud u give Moran that title. No one in kerry wud have Moran up there with Dara O Se and Mick O Connell. These are two of greatest midfielders ever. You hear J O Se D O Se M O Connell many times being called as greatest best midfielders ever. I have never heard anyone say that about Moran. It is widely accepted that Jack O Se and Dara O Se are two greatest midfielders ever , are u saying David Moran is?. A brillant midfielder but I have never heard him labelled one of greatest players of al time like Jack O Se.

Some of ur players are from 00s era made their greatness in 00s eg Cavanagh and Cooper. Others are not all.time great. Gary Brennan is a brillant footballer one best midfielder in country but again he is not all time great player, will people talking about Gary in 20 or 30 years time. Frank McGlynn is very underated , one of best Donegal players of this era again he not up there with the level of kieran McGeeney. Dan Flynn might become a great player. But when you mention Flynn you talking about potential which he has. But he has a long way to go before he up there with Johnny Doyle or Dermot Early in kildare peoples eyes. Players you mention some have yet to achieve greatness, others are clearly not all time greats while my list contained bona fide great players.

You mention Donal Keoghan a very good defender. But again there is no way he can be placed up there with great Meath defenders such as O Brien Quinn Lyons Fay O Connell and O Malley.
Take O Malley. Probaly not mentioned as much as other Meath defenders yet people who know there GAA would have him down as a great. Michael Muiritigh said O Malley was best number 2 right corner back he saw play. O Malley was voted on 40 year anniversary of all.stars as best right corner back in 40 years of all stars. He probaly is not rated as high because Meath had more famous defenders eg Lyons Fay.

Take another player from my list of great players Tony Scullion. Ask anyone from Ulster football and they will tell one greatest Ulster defenders of last 30 to 40 years is Scullion. Again Michael Muiritigh said Scullion was the best number 4 left corner back he ever saw play. Scullion was also voted the best right corner back of 40 years of the All stars. Another great defender from 90s. Not as mentioned as much because there was so many great defenders in that period eg Moyihan McGeeney

Your trying to turn players into great players but they are not. Where are all the great defenders. Blanket defences have destroyed the skill of defending. Corner backs can run up and score a point. But they cannot defend. They have two sweepers and midfielder and two half forwards helping them out. Its meant defenders have lost the basic skill of defending. Dublin have great defenders. The rest struggle.

Look at Tyrone how many of the current Tyrone backs wud get on Tyrone defence of 00s. Peter Harte thats it. Tyrone team of 00s had great defenders similar to current Dublin team eg Ryan McMemanin Conor McAllan Conor Gormley Ryan Harte Philip Jordan. How many of current Tyrone forwards wud get on Tyrone forward line of 00s of Brian Dooher , McGuigan, Mulligan, O Neill , Peter Cavanan and Sean Cavangh ( Cavangh played at full forward in 08 ). Zero current Tyrone forwards wud get on Tyrone team of 00s.

Look at kerry were r all.great kerry defenders. Kerry have always had a great tradition of great defenders eg Sean Murphy Joe Keohoe John O Keefe Paudi O Se Tomas O Se Marc O Se and Seamus Moyihan. Name one great kerry defender that has debuted since 2010 at that level. Dont mention Paul Murphy. Hes be at level of Mike Mcarthy at best but he is no Paudi O Se or Tomas O Se or Seamus Moyihan. Thats a problem for kerry. Even the minor teams have great forwards but there is lack of great defenders coming through.

Looking back at my list of great players from early 90s to early 00s there greatness is obvious it doesnt have to be pretended or inflated

Look at T O Se and Marc O Se. I think everyone would agree two of greatest defenders of last 30 years.
Look at Larry Tompkins. I think must would agree one of the greatest Cork player ever.
What about Mickey Linden. Again I think most knowledge gaa people would say he was one of the great Ulster forwards.
What about Seamus Moyihan. Again most knowledge gaa supporters wud know he is one of great defenders of last 40 years.
What about Darren Fay. I have heard many people call him best full back of last 25 years.
What about Maurice Fitzgerald. One of the most talented footballers best forwards ever. Does anyone disagree with that.
What about Peter Cavanan. One of the great forwards of last 40 years. Does anyone disagree with that.
Is Paul Geaney one of greatest forwards of last 40 years ?. Is Gary Brennan one of greatest midfielders of last 30 years ? . Is Frank McGlynn one of great defenders of last 40 years up there with Paudi and Tomas O Se ? .Wud anyone agree with the above.
You mentioned Jamie Clarke . A very good forward but you will find no one to say he is up there with Stephen McDonnell or other truly great Ulster forwards like Sean O Neill Frank McGuigan Mickey Linden Peter Cavanan.

You mentioned players from different eras who made there name in 00s eg Cooper Cavanagh you mentioned players who are not all time greats and players who are still early in their career. I had list of player after player who are considered greats eg Joyce McDonald Giles Cavanan by genuine supporters. Then you made excuses for lack of great players , oh its the coaches fault. Maurice Fitzgerald played on bad kerry teams. But yet he was considered a great player. Colm O Rourke played on bad Meath teams til his late 20s and yet he was considered a great player. A bad coach doesnt stop a great player showing his greatness. Declan Browne played on average Tipp teams but people knew he was great.

Players are super fit now, stronger then before. Dublin face different challenges to other teams from other eras. Fitness levels of teams. But there is a serious lack of great players in this era for where are the great Kerry Down Cork Tyrone Meath Cork Derry Offaly Armagh players who have debuted since 2010. It doesnt take away from Dublins greatness. They had to win more games to win Sam then say kerry in 1978 or 1979. Teams are fitter now. This Dublin team are the second greatest team and if they win 5 in a row will be greatest. But u can criticise the game currently and it takes nothing away from Dublin greatness.

Dublin face different challenges to other teama from other eras. Fitter opposition and organised teams. But we can say for certain this is the least competitive leinster championship in 120 years. We can say there is lack of great defenders etc. The early 90s to early 00s was a golden age because you had great teams and great players. This era is defined by one thing only a team that is greatest team of last 40 years and second greatest of all.time. Why because if u win 6 All Irelands a 4 in a row that is historic. To have that hunger year in year out. You can criticise football but it does not take away from.Dublin greatness.

Also Football.did not begin in 2011. There was many great teams and players in the past. In other sports most of the all.time greats come from different era . Take soccer yes Messi and Ronaldo are all time greats but most of greatest soccer players are from 60s and 70s 80s eg Pele Maradona Puskas Cruyff Chartlon Best Beckebaur. Greatest soccer team ever is still is Brazil 1970. Surely Man City currently would be better organised and faster. But you will get no one who would say Man City currently is better then Brazil 1970. Gaelic football didnt just begin in 2011. Other sports celebrate teams from the past. I dont know why Gaelic football sud be different and unusual in not celebrating the past.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 06/12/2018 16:18:05    2153521

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "I think one Pat Spillane comment is being blown up a bit there in relation to the 00's Username. It's true people complained a bit about defensive football etc but we had nowhere near, and I mean absolutely nowhere near the level of dissatisfaction and apathy that we have today where every podcast and every panel and pub discussion is dominated with talk of what is wrong with the game.

I myself watch far less football than I used to because I don't like all the hand passing and slow build up play, and I just find it hard to get excited about games that don't involve my own county any more.

I can understand why somebody from Dublin would think everything is fine but there are very serious issues with the game IMO."
That's a fair post and I understand where you're coming from. There are definitely a number of GAA followers like yourself who are not as excited by the game as they once were and that's because the traditional game you know no longer exists but I do believe a lot of the apathy shown towards GAA football stems from the media who love to focus in all that's wrong with the game and who nearly get annoyed when they have to analyse a good game which as I've pointed out in previous posts still do happen. I remember being in the pub watching Cork v Mayo in a qualifier game last year (2017) with a bunch of casual GAA followers and they continuously gave out about the game the whole way through e.g. "football is dead" can't watch that c**p anymore" "not the game it was" etc. and I was trying to figure out if I was watching the same game they were talking about because I found the game really enjoyable and exciting right from the start to finish. So when people are giving out about the good matches what chance has an average or poor game got??

The game has definitely changed but I like a lot of what's in the modern day game as much as I miss elements of the game of the past. We live in an era of possession based football where holding onto the ball is key and this can sometimes lead to moments in games that you described of slow build up and excessive use of the hand pass which I totally agree are not good to watch for long drawn out periods. Teams have developed attacking game plans in recent years which focus on launching faster attacks and apart from Dublin most teams have still quite a bit of development left in this department but are getting there. Michael Murphy was on the sunday game last year after Donegal's exit in the championship as a pundit and he mentioned on several occasions how Donegal target a total of at least 20 points per game because they know they'll need this total to have a chance v Dublin. The hit and hope element of football is almost gone and unless we bring in incentives for attacking teams to take risks then the game will continue to evolve slowly but I do think we can give it a helping hand.

That said no rules changes will ever bring back the game of the past as there is too much work put in now and the current rule changes that are to be trialed will put the game back 5 years if properly introduced because teams will have to start from scratch tactically again. And where do you think they'll start? It will be with defensive tactics and set ups and then in a year or two work on attacking plans but then the rules will probably have another drastic change. I understand for traditional football lovers this current game can be frustrating but there is definitely bit of nostalgia going on too. If we could get the likes of Mayo, Donegal, Kerry, Galway, Monaghan, Kildare and Tyrone to improve and close the gap on Dublin then we might just get a decent championship but like the hurling was 10 years ago one team is a few steps ahead of the rest and it's hard to get too excited about things and that has nothing to do with rule changes. The league will probably be the best competition again this year assuming the new rules are not in play.

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 06/12/2018 16:56:12    2153528

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "I think one Pat Spillane comment is being blown up a bit there in relation to the 00's Username. It's true people complained a bit about defensive football etc but we had nowhere near, and I mean absolutely nowhere near the level of dissatisfaction and apathy that we have today where every podcast and every panel and pub discussion is dominated with talk of what is wrong with the game.

I myself watch far less football than I used to because I don't like all the hand passing and slow build up play, and I just find it hard to get excited about games that don't involve my own county any more.

I can understand why somebody from Dublin would think everything is fine but there are very serious issues with the game IMO."
You see Gerry this is the thing, I actually remember the criticism of the game being far worse in the 00s then I do now, it wasn't an isolated Pat Spillane comment. I can also see why it didn't appear so bad in Kerry at the time equally. Like you mention about social media anyone and usually everyone can get a narrative out there, media is different then it was historically both in diversity, quality and volume, I think you have to be more savvy these days making assumptions about media narrative, well that's my opinion anyway.

I disagree to be honest, I'm not sure people are apathetic around the game as I said above I think attendances are down in certain games but more people are actually going to football matches it's just more spread because there are far more and frequent matches and opportunity. I think many look back with a misty eye the 00's Glorifying I think emptimises that, the criticism of Tyrone and others was rife. I'm not suggesting the game is perfect, certainly their can be tweaks, I'm not wholly against the new rules to be honest, you are making a presumption there.

Many Dubs have varying opinion on the rules certainly that I encountered not sure that really matters tbh, as I'm sure many from Kerry do.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4516 - 06/12/2018 20:21:11    2153544

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Replying To TheUsername:  "You see Gerry this is the thing, I actually remember the criticism of the game being far worse in the 00s then I do now, it wasn't an isolated Pat Spillane comment. I can also see why it didn't appear so bad in Kerry at the time equally. Like you mention about social media anyone and usually everyone can get a narrative out there, media is different then it was historically both in diversity, quality and volume, I think you have to be more savvy these days making assumptions about media narrative, well that's my opinion anyway.

I disagree to be honest, I'm not sure people are apathetic around the game as I said above I think attendances are down in certain games but more people are actually going to football matches it's just more spread because there are far more and frequent matches and opportunity. I think many look back with a misty eye the 00's Glorifying I think emptimises that, the criticism of Tyrone and others was rife. I'm not suggesting the game is perfect, certainly their can be tweaks, I'm not wholly against the new rules to be honest, you are making a presumption there.

Many Dubs have varying opinion on the rules certainly that I encountered not sure that really matters tbh, as I'm sure many from Kerry do."
Attendances have been sliding for a couple of years though. The additional rounds at the QF stage were only added this year, before that there was the same number of matches as before. There isn't 'far more' matches. I don't have aggregate figures across all competitions so I'm not in a position to challenge your claim that there are more people attending football overall. You could well be right. The only thing we can say with certainty is that there are fewer people coming to some of the big matches in Croke Park.

Time will tell whether this is a temporary blip caused by one team dominating or whether there is a wider problem. I suspect it's a bit of both to be honest. The game is in serious trouble in some counties where playing for the county team is not an attractive proposition and they can't get their best fifteen out.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the criticism of the game in the 00's. I honestly don't remember it being that bad, and believe me there was plenty of people giving out in kerry when we couldn't come up with a way to beat the blanket defence, most of the negative stuff probably eminated from the kingdom at the time. A lot of it was sour grapes looking back.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2113 - 06/12/2018 21:24:09    2153546

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Like I said I'd acknowledge attendances are down in certain games, provincal finals, quarterfinals. I would still stand by my point really that I believe more people are attending football matches then ever before. Certainly amongst competitions. I would agree Dublin are a factor in this, there is an apathy and palpable resignation playing Dublin, they are an excellent team and very difficult to beat objectively.

I also think this year was a bit of a perfect storm with attendances, there were only really Dublin and Galwzy with big population centers in the semis and one of those was running better in hurling with little breathing space between fixtures. Monaghan have a small demographic, while Dublin has already beaten Tyrone in Omagh, I think this year was a bit of an anommily, I think if it was Dublin or Kerry or Mayo I think we are looking at very close to full houses.

Personally I think it's more to do with apathy around Dublin in the bigger games then football as a sporting spectacle, but that's a personal opinion. I've enjoyed the club championships recently, looked forward to games all week, I just don't feel apathetic about the game to be honest, I just don't see or feel an apathy and I would go to club games and i actually get to some of the other counties games during the summer being lucky enough to have many on the door step here. I don't associate what I see at games with the narrative. I'm not naive I know some clubs and counties have system based pragmatic approaches or procession approaches, I actually find it quite facisnsting. Galway Vs Mayo this year was poor from a free flowing point of view, but contained great tactical analysis and tension, wel, in my opinion anyway. I actually don't see how the new rules change a game like that.

Think we will agree to differ Gerry, I actually remember the criticism during the noughties as being dogs abuse. Worst then the state of the union now, but I suppose it's perceptional, or maybe geographical. ;)

Always good to chat to you a chara.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4516 - 06/12/2018 22:25:32    2153549

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Okay lets look at the facts.

1 The attendances are down by 28 % since 2001.
2 Total.attendances are down every year in total since mid 00s.
3 Football attendances have declined every year since mid 00s. Basically total number of people attending football matchs in every given year.
5 This year was worst attended football all Irelamd semi finals in a decade
6 2016 was the lowest attended games since 2000.
7 In 2016 over 788764 attended football matchs. This is a drop from 2015 numbers.
8 The peak year was 2003 when nearly 1.2 million attended football .
9 Irish Independent has articles nearly every year about attendances dropping every single year since mid 00s.
10 It remained at over 1 million until 2010.
11 Attendances have dropped every year since 2010.

Lets look at the provinces

In 2005 nearly 60000 turned up in Croke Park to watch Tyrone v Armagh Ulster Final
Ulster has seen a serious decline recently.

According to the BBC they have shown that attendances have dropped at Ulster championship by a quarter since 2016.
In 2018 the average attendance for Ulster championship match was 12370 , which was down from 15581 in 2017 which was down from 17135 in 2016. That is a fall of 28% from 2016 to 2018.

Ulster Final attendances
2018 Ulster Final 28180
2017 Ulster Final 31912
2016 Ulster final 33933

Lets look at leinster
Last year around 41000 attended leinster final in 00s it was around 80000 mark.

2018 Leinster final around 41000 Dublin v laois
2016 Leinster Final around 38000 Dublin v laois
2008 leinster final around 80000 Dublin v Wexford
2006 leinster final around 81000 Dublin v Offaly
2005 leinster Final around 80000 Dublin v Laois

Finally these are all the attendances in football since 2001

Year Total Attendances
2001 1082876
2002 1018512
2003 1166608
2004 1157028
2005 1153331
2006 1097171
2007 1048967
2008 1007277
2009 1055327
2010 965548
2011 939891
2012 885125
2013 880025
2014 837000
2015 819098
2016 788764

So why do u think did the GAA brought in extra games this year in Super 8. What are the chances its connected to a drop in attendances since 2010. Attendances at football matchs are dropping , that a fact.

It seems to me some Dublin supporters if u say anything bad about current game , the quality , the attendances , they see this as a slight against Dublin. The Dubs have gone very defensive and needy. The fact is u can criticise the game the standard the quality and it does nothing to lessen the greatness of this Dublin team. They are second greatest team ever and if they win 5 in a row they are the greatest. That will be widely accepted. This Dublins teams place in history is ensured. But if u dont say Mayo ( are one of the greatest team ever which they are not,) if u dont say this is a great era for football , if u say there are problems with the game , if u say players are walking away , there apathy from players and supporters , the Dubs see this as a slight against their team. You can criticise football the handpassing the attendances and it takes nothing away from the greatness of this Dublin team.

The facts are attendances are dropping. It doesnt take anything away from greatness of this great Dublin team , the numbers are dropping. That just a bona fide fact.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 06/12/2018 22:41:47    2153552

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Sorry about this but I mean to say 38000 turned up for leinster final in 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath not Dublin v laois. Sorry about that.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 06/12/2018 22:49:01    2153554

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Its not just attendances dropping since mid 00s. There is disillusionment and apathy agmost supporters and players. A recent ESRi study warned of a player drain.

For two years the ESRI did workshops surveys consultations with players in the inter county game. They found out players were spending 31 hours per week on GAA. The survey was taken in 2016 and 2017. It found out 30% of 2016 inter county players did not return in 2017. The Irish Independent did a survey themselves this year and also found out around 30% of 2017 inter county players did not return in 2018.

Kevin Walsh the Galway manager revealed earlier this year that 52 players had declined invitations to join the Galway senior panel in his first year and half in the job. Denis Connerton Longfords manager last year said around the same number of players declined invitations to jion longford senior football panel in his first and second year. Basically with 31 hour weeks means GAA are on the edge of professionalism. The report by ESRI said players being members of inter county panel was the equivalent of undertaking a second consecutive shift of work.

Outside div 1 , players are leaving on mass from div 2 3 and 4 teams. 19 Derry players who played in last years champiinship in 2017 did not return for this years league. 18 Cork players who played in last years championship in 2017 did not return for this years league. Counties like Offaly Down Meath Wexford Westmeath longford Cavan nearly all the counties in div 2 3 or 4 had in the double figures players not returning this year who played in 2017. Only Dublin Monaghan Tyrone div 1 teams (with exception of Galway) only the top 4 or 5 teams like Dublin Monaghan Tyrone had only 4 or 5 players who played in 2017 not returning for 2018 league. It looks we have some sort of player drain.

So we have attendances plummeting , an inter county player drain. Surely looking at rule changes are a step in right direction to deal with apathy and disillusionment agmost supporters and players.It wouldnt solve all.the problems but I have never seen such apathy disillusionment and criticism of the game by supporters . There is an issue with football and the problems are worsening. People are not happy with hand pass aftet hand pass. The attendances dropping and growing criticism from all directions show there is problems with the game.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 06/12/2018 23:55:37    2153559

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Furlong.

You must live 48 hour days unlike borin oul 24 hour days like the rest of us do ya ? lol

Where the hell do you get the time man

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13654 - 07/12/2018 09:36:02    2153568

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "Okay lets look at the facts.

1 The attendances are down by 28 % since 2001.
2 Total.attendances are down every year in total since mid 00s.
3 Football attendances have declined every year since mid 00s. Basically total number of people attending football matchs in every given year.
5 This year was worst attended football all Irelamd semi finals in a decade
6 2016 was the lowest attended games since 2000.
7 In 2016 over 788764 attended football matchs. This is a drop from 2015 numbers.
8 The peak year was 2003 when nearly 1.2 million attended football .
9 Irish Independent has articles nearly every year about attendances dropping every single year since mid 00s.
10 It remained at over 1 million until 2010.
11 Attendances have dropped every year since 2010.

Lets look at the provinces

In 2005 nearly 60000 turned up in Croke Park to watch Tyrone v Armagh Ulster Final
Ulster has seen a serious decline recently.

According to the BBC they have shown that attendances have dropped at Ulster championship by a quarter since 2016.
In 2018 the average attendance for Ulster championship match was 12370 , which was down from 15581 in 2017 which was down from 17135 in 2016. That is a fall of 28% from 2016 to 2018.

Ulster Final attendances
2018 Ulster Final 28180
2017 Ulster Final 31912
2016 Ulster final 33933

Lets look at leinster
Last year around 41000 attended leinster final in 00s it was around 80000 mark.

2018 Leinster final around 41000 Dublin v laois
2016 Leinster Final around 38000 Dublin v laois
2008 leinster final around 80000 Dublin v Wexford
2006 leinster final around 81000 Dublin v Offaly
2005 leinster Final around 80000 Dublin v Laois

Finally these are all the attendances in football since 2001

Year Total Attendances
2001 1082876
2002 1018512
2003 1166608
2004 1157028
2005 1153331
2006 1097171
2007 1048967
2008 1007277
2009 1055327
2010 965548
2011 939891
2012 885125
2013 880025
2014 837000
2015 819098
2016 788764

So why do u think did the GAA brought in extra games this year in Super 8. What are the chances its connected to a drop in attendances since 2010. Attendances at football matchs are dropping , that a fact.

It seems to me some Dublin supporters if u say anything bad about current game , the quality , the attendances , they see this as a slight against Dublin. The Dubs have gone very defensive and needy. The fact is u can criticise the game the standard the quality and it does nothing to lessen the greatness of this Dublin team. They are second greatest team ever and if they win 5 in a row they are the greatest. That will be widely accepted. This Dublins teams place in history is ensured. But if u dont say Mayo ( are one of the greatest team ever which they are not,) if u dont say this is a great era for football , if u say there are problems with the game , if u say players are walking away , there apathy from players and supporters , the Dubs see this as a slight against their team. You can criticise football the handpassing the attendances and it takes nothing away from the greatness of this Dublin team.

The facts are attendances are dropping. It doesnt take anything away from greatness of this great Dublin team , the numbers are dropping. That just a bona fide fact."
Furlong lets be really clear here, you can have an opinion on the game football and its state and health without county bias coming into t it, im pretty sure my rebuttals to your points have nothing to do with Dublin GAA or represent the popular view of Dublin supporters. For the sake of this argument lets all say we are all GAA supporters. Im not sure its a healthy approach generalizing about a county to be honest. No more then i think you are speaking as a representative in Meath as ive heard contrasting opinion there too.

I would be interested, to see the source of the figures you posted, i think it with these tpe of articles its important to know where the figures you are posting come from? Thanks.

There is always context, particularly in the Munster fixtures i think their has been surprise pairings in recent years with more traditional successful counties going through the back door.

Leinster figures have generally dropped if im honest, a Leinster title holds little interest for the Dubs, its almost like the end of preseason, that is not being hubris its just the general feeling. If im being honest i dont think provincial titles carry the aura they used to, what use is a provincial title to Kerry, Mayo or Dublin, none really. That said you mention the Dublin and Laois figure this year, there was 60 odd thousand at the Dublin Kildare game the year before. I would still stand by point really between league and championship i still believe more people are attending the league and championship then ever before.

Ill acknowledge the championship is regressing if you can post the source material? Have to say im surprised.

Im not having a go at you a chara i enjoy your posts, so hopefully you dont feel i am, im just debating.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4516 - 07/12/2018 09:50:21    2153572

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Brilliant stuff furlong keep it coming as far as I am concerned.

Where did you get those stats about attendances if you don't mind me asking

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2113 - 07/12/2018 10:02:42    2153573

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I can't vouch for where Furlong got his figures but they seem to be ballpark similar to those used in this article, which it says were sourced from Pauric Duffy's blueprint document:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/revealed-the-attendance-figures-for-the-gaa-football-championships-are-a-cause-for-concern-35145508.html

Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 524 - 07/12/2018 15:09:26    2153606

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Furlong lets be really clear here, you can have an opinion on the game football and its state and health without county bias coming into t it, im pretty sure my rebuttals to your points have nothing to do with Dublin GAA or represent the popular view of Dublin supporters. For the sake of this argument lets all say we are all GAA supporters. Im not sure its a healthy approach generalizing about a county to be honest. No more then i think you are speaking as a representative in Meath as ive heard contrasting opinion there too.

I would be interested, to see the source of the figures you posted, i think it with these tpe of articles its important to know where the figures you are posting come from? Thanks.

There is always context, particularly in the Munster fixtures i think their has been surprise pairings in recent years with more traditional successful counties going through the back door.

Leinster figures have generally dropped if im honest, a Leinster title holds little interest for the Dubs, its almost like the end of preseason, that is not being hubris its just the general feeling. If im being honest i dont think provincial titles carry the aura they used to, what use is a provincial title to Kerry, Mayo or Dublin, none really. That said you mention the Dublin and Laois figure this year, there was 60 odd thousand at the Dublin Kildare game the year before. I would still stand by point really between league and championship i still believe more people are attending the league and championship then ever before.

Ill acknowledge the championship is regressing if you can post the source material? Have to say im surprised.

Im not having a go at you a chara i enjoy your posts, so hopefully you dont feel i am, im just debating."
The stats are from the Irish Independent and BBC. The stats on player drain from ESRI report released in the last few months.

I have been reading about attendances dropping in Irish Independent nearly yearly since 2010. Every year the Irish Independent has an article about attendances dropping for the current year and how they have fallen below 1 million since 2010 and reached a peak in mid 00s. If you want to look at the stats urself. Type gaelic football attendances into google. You will find article by Martin Breheny from Irish Indo and all the stats for every year from 2000 to 2016 are there. Again if you type gaelic football attendances bbc into google you will find BBC article on research on Ulster championship matchs. These are stats for All Ireland senior championship , I cannot get any stats on the league.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 07/12/2018 15:49:18    2153611

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Brilliant stuff furlong keep it coming as far as I am concerned.

Where did you get those stats about attendances if you don't mind me asking"
The stats are from Irish Indo and BBC. I have been reading about attendances dropping in Irish Indo for years. Every year Irish Independent have an article about how attendances dropping for the current year they are talking about and how they fell below 1 million since 2010 and peaked in mid 00s. The player drain stats are from ESRI report released recently in laat few months.

These are stats for senior championship. If you want to look at stats urself type gaelic football attendances into google and you will find article by Martin Breheny in Irish Independent which has the attendance numbers and averages from 2000 to 2016. If you type gaelic football attendances bbc into google you will find article by BBC where BBC have done research on Ulster championship match attendances .

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 07/12/2018 16:00:34    2153614

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do you have the attendances for hurling also, I was just wondering in their is a correlation between the two.

Also there are far more games being televised the past few years which could also account for some of the drop.

Rosineri1 (UK) - Posts: 2099 - 07/12/2018 16:20:56    2153618

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Regards league attendances I dont know. I cannot see a massive surge in league attendances recently. But I am not certain. I dont know any real.stats.

The Dubs have moved to Croker since 2010 2011 so Dubs attendances must have increased. And Donegal Monaghan and Mayos attendances would be high. But there is allot of football strongholds having their worst period in generations so there numbers wouldnt be great. Meath ( div 2 , 1 year in div 3 ) , kildare ( 3 relegations , 1 year in div 3 ) , Armagh ( 3 last 4 years in div 3 ) , Cork ( div 2 ) , Laois ( Div 4 ) , Down ( Div 3 ) , Derry ( Div 4 ) , Galway ( most of decade in div 2 ). All those counties wouldn't have had massive league attendances . So many strong counties have had their worst period in generations. And where stronger in 00s. Take Armagh. Armagh has strong football fan base. They won Sam , loads of Ulsters and league div 1 title in 00s , in last 4 years 3 years in div 3 and haven't won a match in Ulster in 5 years. Attendances wouldnt be great at Atletic grounds.

I know myself numbers in Navan Newbridge have been declining. Kildare supporters where telling me there was more Mayo fans at Newbridge then kildare fans in the league this year. And from first hand experience travelling for games in Navan Newbridge Portloaise Mullingar Newry Armagh Sligo Enniskillen Wexford for matchs in this decade the numbers seem.to be down compared to attendances at these grounds when all these counties where doing well in 00s..We know traditionally and currently attendances in div 3 and div 4 can be low..And the hardcore fans go the league games.

Still the end of the league games when relegation and promotion are up for grabs bring decent crowds. And having div 2 and div 1 finals on same day which began in early part of this decade brings decents crowds with league finals hitting over 30000 mark. But the biggest league final attendance in last 20 years was Wexford v Armagh in 2005 when 47000 turned up for only 1 league final. While 36000 turned up this year to see 2 league finals between Dublin v Galway and Roscommon v Cavan.

But overall I not sure. I have no concrete stats. But I think a masive surge in league attendances in last while , I would have my doubts there has being.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 07/12/2018 16:22:38    2153619

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Replying To Rosineri1:  "do you have the attendances for hurling also, I was just wondering in their is a correlation between the two.

Also there are far more games being televised the past few years which could also account for some of the drop."
Sorry. I dont have year for year stats for hurling.
But this year was a good year for hurling. Over 700000 turned up this year for hurling championship. Limerick and Cork reaching knockout stages wud have pushed up numbers. And the new format in the proviences would have seen an increase in crowds. I remeber reading somewhere that crowds in Munster hurling championship where down in recent years.

Again depends on counties. For example Wexford have a strong fanbase. Wexford v Galway leinster final last year had around 60000. While kilkenny v Galway leinster finals in recent years had an average of 30000.

Of course the hurling semi finals had more then football this year. Around 71000 turned up for limerick v Cork semi final. And circa 54000 turned up Galway v Clare Croke Park drawn semi final while circa 44,000 turned up for Galway v Clare replay semi final.

For football.around 54000 turned up for Galway v Dublin semi final and around 49000 for Tyrone v Monaghan All Ireland semi final.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 07/12/2018 16:45:50    2153625

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