Its not just all about Bailieboro. I would agree that there are lads left on the bench and this is unfair but they didn't join for the league for this very reason. i would imagine there is a large panel because all those eligible from both clubs are getting involved. Those not making the first 15 aren't sitting at home huffing about it. As for joining at senior level, the majority of underage amalgamations don't join after minor. Maybe some at U21 but even that's not as common. Kill/ Drung don't join as St finbarrs, Lacken/ Cornafean don't go as Scarvy gaels. There is no St Joe's at senior level or Redbridge for that matter. A few clubs in recent times have attempted amalgamations for the Senior championship but only as an addition to there own championship competition. Why should Bailieboro and Shercock have to? No one knows what will happen in the future but i would imagine both clubs are doing what they think is best now, getting involved in an amalgamation and at the end of the day thats all you can ask of anybody.

SS1 (Cavan) - Posts: 196 - 05/08/2010 16:19:39    737096

Kilann Gaels should never have been allowed. Bailieboro won an U-16 Div 1 Title on their OWN the year before this amalgamation was allowed!!! Bailieboro have serious pull. Let them at it, I say, just beat them on the field where it counts!

cailin deas (Cavan) - Posts: 68 - 05/08/2010 17:25:40    737211

Well said cailin deas

Mr_Big (Cavan) - Posts: 75 - 05/08/2010 17:38:42    737232

I don't think those not at home are huffing about it but 17 not playing minor championship is hardly good for the development of those players.

It's not Killan Gaels but the general principle so lets move away from the specifics.

If two clubs join because they are short on players then that's a win because you have players playing in their particular grade. If two clubs with plenty of players get together because they are two average teams but will be stronger when joined then that's not good because you marganalise the players that would have otherwise played with their own club in the championship. Similarly, and slightly worse is, when a team good enough to compete on their own amalgamates with a lesser but good enough team, then it takes the competitive edge off both teams and sends your own clubmates to the bench.

After U14 players begin to drift off 15 and 16 more go so cumulatively by minor , you have lost quite a few players you are really trying to hold on to the rest, so the latter two scenarios mitigates against the fringe players and huffing as you call it is the first step to walking away all together. so what I'm saying is it's difficult enough to hold on to players without providing a really good reason to them to quit so a team can engineer a handy title?

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 05/08/2010 18:27:49    737321

The direction that the discussion on the minor championship has taken is unfortunate. All of the clubs involved in amalgamations, and there are many, do so under the rules and bye-laws agreed by the Board. The boad comprises the duly elected or appointed officers of the clubs in Cavan, therefore, they are our rules.

The amalgamation of Shercock and Balieboro is consistent with these rules. What is more, Shercock and Balieboro are part of the same parish. The GAA, since 1884, has founded its strength on the club entity, and the club, in turn, on the Parish. Kilann Gaels can hold their heads up in relation to all of these criteria, coupled with the fact that they 'ply their craft' in the highest division available.

Other amalgamations are worth looking at through the same lens.

St. Josephs - Neighbouring clubs, but not sure about the parish connections. A strong combination that has been competitive over the last 4 years or so at minor level. Maybe it preceeded the HS Forum, but I don't recall such a strong back-lash against St Josephs as we appear to be seeing against Killann Gaels.

Kill & Drung, competing as St Finbarrs......same parish, unable to field individually, competing in Division 2...seems fair.

Eire Og Celtics, (Drumgoon / Cootehill) - same parish - Cootehill unable to field at minor or u16 for at least 3 years and didn't contest the Minor League. Drumgoon with limited numbers and moved up from Div. 3 to Div 2 with the Amalgamation....seems fair.

Redbridge - Redhills/Butlersdridge - not sure about the parish connection, but variously playing as minors in Div 1 & 2 and always competitive. Competing in Div 2 Championship this year - Seems fair.

Blackwater Gaels - Three club amalgamation (at minor and senior championship). Competitive minor squad, probably unable to field on their own. Conpeted in the Div 3 League and won it (I think unbeaten). Now playing Championship in Div 2. Championship status seems fair (not sure about an amalgamation competing in a Div 3 league though)

Shannongaels St Aidans - Shannon Gaels / Templeport. Not aware of any 'Same Parish' Connection here but could be wrong. Shannon Gaels competitive on their own, playing in Division 3. Aligned with Templeport and remained in Div 3 for the League. Not sure about that. Stayed in Div. 3 for the Championship and turned over by Ballinagh.

Cornacreive - Cornafean plus the Dernacreive amalgamation - Played Div 3 minor League and suffered. Difficult to say whether tis is a function of small numbers, motivation or poor organisation, but there is work to be done with this grouping if it is to prove viable.

There are other amalgamations, like Corglass for example, but this is not meant to be a census.

I guess the bottom-line is that amalgamations that are based on the core principles on which the GAA was founded...the parish...seem to be wholly consistent with the ethic of the association. In addition, where they keep players in football (or hurling), are appropriately managed and organised, and played in the Upper Divisions so as not to strip a title from a single club team (in say Div 3 or 4) then there is a clear place for such amalgamations. Good luck Kilann Gaels and the rest of the teams contesting Championship in 2010. Here's to improving standards.

shamrock10 (Cavan) - Posts: 41 - 05/08/2010 20:19:33    737482

Shamrock10,

Excellent post, well done !! End of argument !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 05/08/2010 21:14:47    737534

Sure the biggest amalgamation of all is cavan gaels and no one id mensioning them.they take in half the county

hoy (Cavan) - Posts: 307 - 05/08/2010 21:23:35    737550

The reason that Shannon Gaels amalgamated (so I heard from a friend) is that Templeport have only around 4 players at minor level and only 2 of them are playing for Shannon Gaels! Still I dont believe in amalgamations unless there is no other option to take!

cavanforsam (Cavan) - Posts: 143 - 05/08/2010 21:31:55    737565

Shamrock 10,
You seem to be "not sure" about a lot of comments you made in your post! If it's parish ethics you are talking about, I believe Maghera are in the same parish as Ramor??? Corglass are Crosserlough and Lacken,. two seperate parishes, indeed they competed against each other at Senior level last Sunday!!!! Will they be Corglass as a senior team in a year or two? Redhills and Butlerbridge are two separate parishes!! Just an observation!

cailin deas (Cavan) - Posts: 68 - 06/08/2010 09:39:07    737660

Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 5401

737534 Shamrock10,

Excellent post, well done !! End of argument !!

Glad you think so!!

I agree it's an excellent post and I would agree with 99% of it and there are valid reason to amalgamate and the parish as an entity is one of them etc..

however what I am questioning is not the technical legalities if amalgamations, but whether in certain circumstances it's damaging to a club or clubs to amalgamate when you deny your own players the chance to play championship football, in cases where you could have fielded a team that could compete at that or a lower level.
So you win a championship but some players with potential who don't make the team decide to drift off where as they may have stayed on playing if the competed in the lower league?

so I'm not arguing any of the excellent points that Shamrock makes but adding in a new question do you want to win a handy championship at the expense of deleloping weaker players with potential??

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 06/08/2010 09:45:03    737668

Ochanlir,

I think the challenge for fringe players is to improve and try and make the team. The way to improve the overall standard in the county especially at senior is by amalgamation and having less teams that are only average. If a player thinks he will walk onto a team because they only have the bare numbers then where is the incentive for him to rise his game and improve ? I would like to see Cavan divided into 8 areas as a trial to see how it would work out !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 06/08/2010 15:29:56    738261

slasher

thats one point of view the reality is that we are losing players and amalgamations in some cases mitigates against keeping players

It a valid opinion to want to raise standards

both need to be considered

what is the objective, to raise standards or to win a cup?

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 06/08/2010 17:09:13    738450

Sorry i forgot to add.. or multiply 8 X 15 players = 120


you'll get a great county panel from 120 players to choose from, meanwhile soccer clubs would get stronger and stronger I'd say they would have more than 120 players

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 06/08/2010 17:57:32    738536

ye killian gaels ave a big panel bt all da lads who r interested in football will fight 4 dare place on da startin team and with competion da fringe players will get better !...

workman (Cavan) - Posts: 35 - 06/08/2010 18:17:49    738578

No that will separate the wheat from the chaff and make the competition much better as lads will really have to knuckle-down and fight for a place. It would only be a trial for maybe 3 years and if you think about it the county team can only benefit. They can take the 30 best players. The current situation is certainly not working and time to suggest new ideas. I believe lads will improve with a set-up like that. Each regional team would have more than 15 to pick from too so you would have more than 120 !!

You are not depriving lads of football as there would be other teams and games with their own clubs but only the cream would get on the regional teams !!
This is only a suggestion as i stated earlier so anyone can feel free to make alternative suggestions. It is all for a common cause = the improvement of Cavan football and the county team !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 06/08/2010 18:56:03    738642

Cailin deas and Mr big would ye ever get a life. People are getting bored with the anti Killan gaels thripe on this website. At the end of the day they won it fair and square last year. Its not as if they walked all over everyone the joes could have beating them in the first round. A bit of success to any team always brings the green eyed monster out in others. Try channel your energy into beating them instead of coming on this website with your rubbish!

THE.FOX (Cavan) - Posts: 48 - 07/08/2010 09:36:45    738885

THE FOX everybody on this website who arent from either the shercock or the bailebourgh club agrees that the two clubs joining up should never being aloud to happen, its young lads like you that needs to get a life

Mr_Big (Cavan) - Posts: 75 - 07/08/2010 16:11:05    739315

Cailindeas,
Thank you for you observation (or perhaps, more than one).

Let me clarify one thing. I made no reference to Parish Ethics. You will appreciate, that that is something very different to the core ethic of our Association. As the GAA, we based our club structure on the parish.

In relation to your more interesting question, and not related directly to the Minor Championship....Should Ramor and Maghera amalgamate at Senior Level, or should Crosserlough & Lacken? The fact is that there are a number of clubs involved in today's senior (and other) championships who are themselves the result of prior amalgamations:

Ranor United - Lurgan, Virginia Blues and originally (in 1971) Maghera McFinns, to win the Senior Championship.
Denn Sons of O'Connell - Crosskeys GFC and Drumavaddy GFC (1969)
Laragh United - Laragh GFC and Stradone GAA Club (1972/73) to contest the Championship Final that year
Cavan Gaels - Cavan Harps and Cavan Slashers (1959/60)

Indeed, much of the history of Maghera and Ramor have been intertwined at underage level, including a minor championship final appearance as recently as 2007.

So, amalgamations do happen in sport and in our code. They happen at senior and underage level. They are not inevitable, but if their is a mutual ambition, they can and do happen.

My point above is that our rules permit them. They tend to be stronger if they are parish based, for the reasons outlined above. Will Crosserlough and Lacken amalgamate at senior level? If this was a serious question, then I believe it unlikely. But just as unlikely as (say) Knockbride and Drumgoon amalgamating for senior championship might have been considered, or St Marys (Castlerahan and Maghera) who won the senior championship in the mid '70's.

I agree with the FOX. Take the Kilann Gaels issue to the field. Both clubs appear happy with their amalgamation. Address them on the field.

shamrock10 (Cavan) - Posts: 41 - 07/08/2010 17:37:37    739423

id have no problem with kilann gaels if they joined up for the league,but when they only do it for the championship,it looks like,"were not good enough to win on our own so lets join up because we can."

i think the regional teams are the way forward.after the minor semis the final wont be on for weeks,an 8 team regional championship could be run off fairly quick.

shapes42 (Cavan) - Posts: 383 - 07/08/2010 18:16:33    739465

my issue is certainly not with BBoro and Shercock's amalgamation, good luck to them.

serious consideration by any club entering into an amalgamation should be given to the question - how will this amalgamation affect our players. I'm sure both clubs above have done this.

leaving the two clus in question out of this (I think they have very comprehensively and fairly stated their case) and looking to amalgamations in general they are good and serve a very worthy purpose much of the time but are, in my view, counter productive much of the time as well.

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 07/08/2010 19:39:57    739549