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Replying To Doylerwex: "It's more likely that people from different socioeconomic backgrounds may not be encouraged to pursue academia or may not have seen that example within their social circles or among their peers.
It is very often down to cost and anybody who thinks otherwise is living on a different planet.
I know you know this, but take a 15 year old in Wexford as an example. SETU may be the only option due to cost or availablity of housing which just isn't an issue for a child the same age in Dublin. I cannot understand how there are people on this forum even trying to challenge the idea." While people of "different socioeconomic backgrounds" may not see that example within their social circles or among their peers or may not be encouraged to do it, all Secondary school students are made aware of these options, particularly in 4th year and 5th year as the approach Leaving Cert and are made aware of CAO forms and requirements etc. I never thought that path would be open to me, but was made aware at Secondary school by Career Guidance teacher who took classes through it.
I acknowledge cost is factor in deciding where to go, my only option was LYIT (Now part of ATU), as I could not afford to move to Dublin or anywhere else. Even with my part-time job, I could not cover the accommodation and travel costs outside Donegal and my family couldn't either. I had to work long hours for crap wages to pay for books, bus, food, clothing etc, but it was manageable.
The discussion is whether equal education opportunities exist, not whether equal wealth exists or whether its easier for someone who grows up in Dublin to live at home and attend UCD or Trinity etc, compared to someone in Wexford, Donegal or Mayo.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1724 - 10/04/2026 11:47:30
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Replying To Commodore: "You went full Victim there. Are you experiencing Scopto, where your mind sees what it wants to see, regardless of what I actually wrote?
Read my comments, particularly read where I openly stated that despite me growing up in a very poor family in the 1980s, I managed to attend 3rd Level education on a grant while working part-time (Started working PT at 15), my parents could not afford to pay for my education due to our difficult circumstances.
Writing as someone from a relatively poor background who availed of these opportunities, I am clearly saying that if others from similarly poor backgrounds didn't avail of these opportunities, its likely because they chose not to for a variety of reasons (Including those who might struggle academically), not because those opportunities didn't exist.
Also its shameful for you to suggest people who struggle academically are genetically less intelligent or are from poorer backgrounds, Academic education is just one path, many successful people struggled academically, but are probably more intelligent, they just learn differently, learn from experience and apply those leanings better." I wasnt suggesting that, you were, whether you meant to or not.
And your life story is proof that equality of opportunity doesn't exist, which was my point in the 1st place.
Of course there's opportunity, and of course some people do better in life than others at achieving their goals, be those making money, being a good parent, being happy, being healthy or whatever their goals are.
But the bottom line still is that there are more opportunities, and those opportunities are easier availed of, depending on your family's socio-economic background.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19175 - 10/04/2026 11:52:43
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Replying To zinny: "I think we have to first acknowledge we have come a long way from the statement I posted in the other post however the old attitudes to the word "FREE" still exist when it comes to public services and Education is no different. If education is one of the keys to prosperity then unless its free then we are creating barriers for people who cannot afford it. That in turn keeps the status quo which of course is what a lot of people want. Its not a utopian society where there are no barriers to education but rather a just society.
There is a lot of reform that is needed in Education to make t more effective for the money spent on it - issues with teaching standards are hard to resolve because of the ingrained way the system works, that in turn allows a two tier system of education where wealth buys a better standard. So its not just about removing the costs to education but also ensuring that the quality of education received does not create that two tier standard." Good post Zinny. I was lucky. Or unlucky depending what way you look at it. I got a scholarship to go to a fee paying boarding school in England. I know for a fact that that opportunity isnt available to everyone.
And there were plenty there who were educated beyond their intelligence, and therefore got places at 3rd level institutions, purely because their parents were wealthy.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19175 - 10/04/2026 11:58:04
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Replying To Doylerwex: " Replying To Commodore: "The Public sector is absolutely bloated, its a disgrace, the biggest drain on public finances in Ireland with inefficiencies that would never survive in a non-unionized private sector corporation. While Artificial intelligence is getting introduced to drive efficiency in the private sector and where modern business apps streamline a lot of admin work in different industries, nothing changes in Ireland's white elephant.
Once a public employee is made permanent, its a job for life, handy 35 hours, excessive sick leave etc. I'm talking about glorified secretarial roles, I would understand if it was front-line workers earning big money, but its not.
Anyone who doubts the "Jobs for life" comment, google<b> 'Public Sector Mortgages in Ireland'</b> to see what I mean, a job for life gets you special treatment for mortgages in an era when many Irish people are struggling to qualify for mortgages, as different rules apply to public sector workers, as its a scam. Jobs for the boys.
I work in the private sector, but my information is solid, from several close friends who joined different branches of the Public sector in last 5 - 15 years in two different Counties. These people worked in the private sector for varying numbers of years, and are in grade 3, grade 5 & grade 7 admin roles and their incomes would surprise a lot of people. They all agree is very inefficient and also resistant to any attempt to improve things."</div>I've worked as a manager in the department of social protection and can testify to this.
The resistance to change and any form of efficiency initiative is genuinely frightening." Yeah and that drives good people out, like people with genuinely good intentions or who want to make things more efficient, it eventually wears them down. I don't want to attack individual public sector departments here, I know a good few people from each of the DSP, ETB and HSE, not to mention the County Council. I'm not saying we should get rid of those departments, I am saying they need a major overhaul to how they are run and particular a closer look at wage structure and maybe get rid of the Unions. Its near impossible to get a mortgage in Ireland unless one person in a house is in a permanent public sector role, in which case getting a mortgage is a formality.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1724 - 10/04/2026 12:06:37
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Tell me you are one one of the above without telling me you are one of the above!
This state is classic example of post colonial dependency. An elite that subsists on facilitating foreign corporations and EU - used to be Brits - and has impded domestic industrial development in favour of rent." Im not one of any of the above. have had 2 temporary contracts in civil service as an EO but didnt like working in the CS but youve gone on a complete tinfoil hat conspriacy rant... as usual...
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3959 - 10/04/2026 18:31:02
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Replying To Commodore: "While people of "different socioeconomic backgrounds" may not see that example within their social circles or among their peers or may not be encouraged to do it, all Secondary school students are made aware of these options, particularly in 4th year and 5th year as the approach Leaving Cert and are made aware of CAO forms and requirements etc. I never thought that path would be open to me, but was made aware at Secondary school by Career Guidance teacher who took classes through it.
I acknowledge cost is factor in deciding where to go, my only option was LYIT (Now part of ATU), as I could not afford to move to Dublin or anywhere else. Even with my part-time job, I could not cover the accommodation and travel costs outside Donegal and my family couldn't either. I had to work long hours for crap wages to pay for books, bus, food, clothing etc, but it was manageable.
The discussion is whether equal education opportunities exist, not whether equal wealth exists or whether its easier for someone who grows up in Dublin to live at home and attend UCD or Trinity etc, compared to someone in Wexford, Donegal or Mayo." Why did you bother applying if you acknowledged I was right in your last paragraph.
If some can afford it and others can't that's inequality.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4426 - 10/04/2026 18:43:02
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Why did you bother applying if you acknowledged I was right in your last paragraph.
If some can afford it and others can't that's inequality.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4413 - 10/04/2026 18:43:02
Incorrect. I agreed that cost can be factor that impacts options, but that is not to say the opportunity is taken away.
We have education equality in so far as all people in Ireland have the opportunity to avail of 3rd level education. People from poorer backgrounds, who ordinarily wouldn't be able to afford College/University fees etc can get their full fees paid and avail of an additional monthly maintenance grant towards living costs if they are from a household below a certain income threshold.
Your equality argument is based on affordability, its not about equality of opportunity to 3rd level, its more about the lack of options if you don't have sufficient funding or wealth. You want every Irish person to be able to study wherever they want, fully funded by the state, basically you want wealth equality, where every single person earns the same, no privilege etc.....i.e. Communism!!
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1724 - 10/04/2026 21:32:57
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Replying To Doylerwex: "Why did you bother applying if you acknowledged I was right in your last paragraph.
If some can afford it and others can't that's inequality." No, that's what's called a meritocracy.
What you seem to be pining for is some sort of socialist Eden.
What country would you most like us to be like, out of interest?
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5314 - 11/04/2026 06:00:20
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Replying To Commodore: "Why did you bother applying if you acknowledged I was right in your last paragraph.
If some can afford it and others can't that's inequality.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4413 - 10/04/2026 18:43:02
Incorrect. I agreed that cost can be factor that impacts options, but that is not to say the opportunity is taken away.
We have education equality in so far as all people in Ireland have the opportunity to avail of 3rd level education. People from poorer backgrounds, who ordinarily wouldn't be able to afford College/University fees etc can get their full fees paid and avail of an additional monthly maintenance grant towards living costs if they are from a household below a certain income threshold.
Your equality argument is based on affordability, its not about equality of opportunity to 3rd level, its more about the lack of options if you don't have sufficient funding or wealth. You want every Irish person to be able to study wherever they want, fully funded by the state, basically you want wealth equality, where every single person earns the same, no privilege etc.....i.e. Communism!!" That would be the ideal yes. No individual needs to have more than any other. If they believe they do then their value system is wrong.
Realistically that will never happen.
So what we actually need is the same options and standards to be available in each region for maximum accessibility. You won't get equality of outcome because inevitably some people will do more with the resources they have and that's absolutely fair, but the opportunity needs to exist for all with minimal barriers. We don't have that which you've acknowledged.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4426 - 11/04/2026 11:13:41
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Replying To cavanman47: "No, that's what's called a meritocracy.
What you seem to be pining for is some sort of socialist Eden.
What country would you most like us to be like, out of interest?" Wealth is nothing to do with merit. I can't believe you need that explained to you.
The prime example is wealthy children in private school living near the best universities with the best employment opportunities. That's not merit. That's luck at best, or a cartel at worst.
Nordic countries do it best generally.
What's wrong with the ambition of socialist Eden?
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4426 - 11/04/2026 11:16:01
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Replying To Commodore: "Why did you bother applying if you acknowledged I was right in your last paragraph.
If some can afford it and others can't that's inequality.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4413 - 10/04/2026 18:43:02
Incorrect. I agreed that cost can be factor that impacts options, but that is not to say the opportunity is taken away.
We have education equality in so far as all people in Ireland have the opportunity to avail of 3rd level education. People from poorer backgrounds, who ordinarily wouldn't be able to afford College/University fees etc can get their full fees paid and avail of an additional monthly maintenance grant towards living costs if they are from a household below a certain income threshold.
Your equality argument is based on affordability, its not about equality of opportunity to 3rd level, its more about the lack of options if you don't have sufficient funding or wealth. You want every Irish person to be able to study wherever they want, fully funded by the state, basically you want wealth equality, where every single person earns the same, no privilege etc.....i.e. Communism!!" Every Irish person should be able to study any course they are academically qualified to do. Regardless of how rich their family is. That is the definition of equality of opportunity. Thats not Communism. Its meritocracy defined.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19175 - 11/04/2026 11:32:25
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Replying To cavanman47: "No, that's what's called a meritocracy.
What you seem to be pining for is some sort of socialist Eden.
What country would you most like us to be like, out of interest?" Every Irish person should be able to study any course they are academically qualified to do. Regardless of how rich their family is. That is the definition of equality of opportunity. Thats not Communism. Its meritocracy defined.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19175 - 11/04/2026 11:33:05
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Every Irish person should be able to study any course they are academically qualified to do. Regardless of how rich their family is. That is the definition of equality of opportunity. Thats not Communism. Its meritocracy defined.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19163 - 11/04/2026 11:32:25 266
Every Irish person can study any course they academically meet the criteria for, and people from low income families are provided with excellent supports to encourage that. And if they can't afford it with the SUSI grants and a part-time job in summers or even during the college term, there are options for Student loans, where you can borrow the shortfall and pay it back years later when earning above a certain salary level. So we have meritocracy!
What you want is equal wealth for all, which is communism!
The State isn't unlimited pot of gold, we the people are the State, we collectively pay into the state via revenue, that money is divided to pay for civic amenities and infrastructure, healthcare, education etc. If you want equality, well how about each person is only entitled to claim back based on the amount they each contributed to the state over the years in terms of income tax etc?
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1724 - 11/04/2026 12:43:56
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That would be the ideal yes. No individual needs to have more than any other. If they believe they do then their value system is wrong.
Realistically that will never happen.
So what we actually need is the same options and standards to be available in each region for maximum accessibility. You won't get equality of outcome because inevitably some people will do more with the resources they have and that's absolutely fair, but the opportunity needs to exist for all with minimal barriers. We don't have that which you've acknowledged.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4418 - 11/04/2026 11:13:41 2
Based on my own experience, Education does exist with minimal barriers in Ireland compared to most of the world. Even for students from low income families, if they meet the academic criteria, there are options there for them to go study a far away institutions if that is what they want.
They might need to take out large student loan, which they pay back in later life once earning above a certain threshold, or they might have to work part-time and work summers to reduce what they need to borrow, but the opportunity exists here for all with significant support from the State.
After you give all people equal education opportunities (Which Ireland does), its up to them what they do or achieve afterwards.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1724 - 11/04/2026 13:07:09
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Replying To Commodore: "Every Irish person should be able to study any course they are academically qualified to do. Regardless of how rich their family is. That is the definition of equality of opportunity. Thats not Communism. Its meritocracy defined.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19163 - 11/04/2026 11:32:25 266
Every Irish person can study any course they academically meet the criteria for, and people from low income families are provided with excellent supports to encourage that. And if they can't afford it with the SUSI grants and a part-time job in summers or even during the college term, there are options for Student loans, where you can borrow the shortfall and pay it back years later when earning above a certain salary level. So we have meritocracy!
What you want is equal wealth for all, which is communism!
The State isn't unlimited pot of gold, we the people are the State, we collectively pay into the state via revenue, that money is divided to pay for civic amenities and infrastructure, healthcare, education etc. If you want equality, well how about each person is only entitled to claim back based on the amount they each contributed to the state over the years in terms of income tax etc?" You're still missing the point. You shouldn't have needed the part time job. That puts you at an academic disadvantage to a fellow student that isn't working.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4426 - 11/04/2026 13:50:55
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Replying To Commodore: "That would be the ideal yes. No individual needs to have more than any other. If they believe they do then their value system is wrong.
Realistically that will never happen.
So what we actually need is the same options and standards to be available in each region for maximum accessibility. You won't get equality of outcome because inevitably some people will do more with the resources they have and that's absolutely fair, but the opportunity needs to exist for all with minimal barriers. We don't have that which you've acknowledged.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4418 - 11/04/2026 11:13:41 2
Based on my own experience, Education does exist with minimal barriers in Ireland compared to most of the world. Even for students from low income families, if they meet the academic criteria, there are options there for them to go study a far away institutions if that is what they want.
They might need to take out large student loan, which they pay back in later life once earning above a certain threshold, or they might have to work part-time and work summers to reduce what they need to borrow, but the opportunity exists here for all with significant support from the State.
After you give all people equal education opportunities (Which Ireland does), its up to them what they do or achieve afterwards." Again, the loan or the job requirement for some and not others isn't equality.
I agreed without you closing sentiment, but I am still drawing attention to the realisation that access to educate isn't equal.
Nevermind third level, Wexford town alone is short 614 second level places this September. Those children will get an educational, but will having to traverse unreasonably far to get it, but them at an academic and social disadvantage before they even start.
I have two colleges degrees that I funded myself. I am a manager in financial services. I grew up in a council estate. My dad worked in a factory with a junior cert education and my mam stayed home.
I know there's no equality. Like you, I've lived it. You need to recognise that in spite of what you achieved, you had to work much harder for it than many of your peers which you seem somehow unaware of.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4426 - 11/04/2026 13:57:05
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Replying To Doylerwex: "You're still missing the point. You shouldn't have needed the part time job. That puts you at an academic disadvantage to a fellow student that isn't working." They're not at an academic disadvantage. They're at a time disadvantage to spend on their studies if they wished. Arguably the student who has to work part time will be better off in the long run, gaining some life skills and the value of money. Rather than the mollycoddled youngster relying on the bank of Mam and Dad and getting a weird awakening when they try going out to a world of getting a job and working away from home.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8509 - 11/04/2026 14:54:00
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Replying To GreenandRed: "They're not at an academic disadvantage. They're at a time disadvantage to spend on their studies if they wished. Arguably the student who has to work part time will be better off in the long run, gaining some life skills and the value of money. Rather than the mollycoddled youngster relying on the bank of Mam and Dad and getting a weird awakening when they try going out to a world of getting a job and working away from home." yeah its that. theyre not at a disadvantage within school itself. and yeah i agree with you on the student working part time. if diligent enough and efficient enough in their time then they;ll be far stronger than others who dont have to do that to get by
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3959 - 11/04/2026 15:31:11
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Replying To GreenandRed: "They're not at an academic disadvantage. They're at a time disadvantage to spend on their studies if they wished. Arguably the student who has to work part time will be better off in the long run, gaining some life skills and the value of money. Rather than the mollycoddled youngster relying on the bank of Mam and Dad and getting a weird awakening when they try going out to a world of getting a job and working away from home." Do you know anything about the effects of tiredness on one's ability to learn?
I actually agree on the part time work thing but that's not really the point.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4426 - 11/04/2026 16:55:00
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Replying To Doylerwex: "Do you know anything about the effects of tiredness on one's ability to learn?
I actually agree on the part time work thing but that's not really the point." I do. Dyslexia is an academic disadvantage. Being tired after a bit of work might disadvantage some students but if they've the discipline to work to do their studies it's a good base. Life isn't perfect. If you're not happy with some systems try, at least, to propose feasible improvements.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8509 - 11/04/2026 17:11:48
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