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Replying To Cockney_Cat: " Replying To Tadhg2020: "[quote=Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
<b>Group A</b>
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
<b>Group B</b>
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?"</div>I dont know why you would want this?
It diminishes the Leinster hurling Championship even further.
You mention Wexford not being down at joe mcdonagh cup level yet. Thats because of the insurance policy that the 6th team already gives you. This proposal is designed to protect the strong under the guise of promoting the weak.
Whats so wrong with winning the Joe McDonagh Cup and being promoted. Yes you may be relegated again but you get to go again and win another All Ireland the following year if you stick together. Whats so wrong with that? For Laois, Carlow, Kildare, Westmeath, Antrm(i note you didnt include them) and others the Joe is as good as it gets for winning a medal and an All Ireland. You may not value it in wexford but I can assure you that these counties do just as Ring, Rackard and Meagher winners do too. For many this is the pinnacle of their career and that shouldn't be dismissed.
We have a good system. Yes its flawed at the top end but it works very well in division 2, 3, 4 and 5. Everyone knows and understands the system because its a basic pyramid. Roscommon, where I live, are disappointed to be relegated back to Rackard after 1 year in Ring. The jump in standard was just too high this time as it was for kildare. Its not the end of the world though, as portrayed by most, as they get to go again next year. If they are good enough they will get back to CP, win another all ireland and have another go the following year. Thats how it should be." "It diminishes the Leinster hurling Championship even further." Even further? Could you elaborate on this and tell us how Leinster is already "diminished"? "Everyone knows and understands the system because its a basic pyramid."A pyramid system that Munster are not involved in, because it's a closed shop."]Yep, suck it up. We've covered that many times.
Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 475 - 27/05/2026 17:11:15
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@tadgh2020 - well, if I was just throwing it out for discussion, you've a bit to say anyway :)
Reason I was look at it as a eight-team championship rather than ten is that if there were ten, plus the five from Munster, then you'd be at 15. There'd then be cries of "what about Kerry????" and they'd surely be added in somehow too.
Then you'd be up to a 16-team championship, and there's already a thread on that....
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3711 - 27/05/2026 17:57:52
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Replying To Tadhg2020: " Replying To Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
<b>Group A</b>
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
<b>Group B</b>
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?"</div>I dont know why you would want this?
It diminishes the Leinster hurling Championship even further.
You mention Wexford not being down at joe mcdonagh cup level yet. Thats because of the insurance policy that the 6th team already gives you. This proposal is designed to protect the strong under the guise of promoting the weak.
Whats so wrong with winning the Joe McDonagh Cup and being promoted. Yes you may be relegated again but you get to go again and win another All Ireland the following year if you stick together. Whats so wrong with that? For Laois, Carlow, Kildare, Westmeath, Antrm(i note you didnt include them) and others the Joe is as good as it gets for winning a medal and an All Ireland. You may not value it in wexford but I can assure you that these counties do just as Ring, Rackard and Meagher winners do too. For many this is the pinnacle of their career and that shouldn't be dismissed.
We have a good system. Yes its flawed at the top end but it works very well in division 2, 3, 4 and 5. Everyone knows and understands the system because its a basic pyramid. Roscommon, where I live, are disappointed to be relegated back to Rackard after 1 year in Ring. The jump in standard was just too high this time as it was for kildare. Its not the end of the world though, as portrayed by most, as they get to go again next year. If they are good enough they will get back to CP, win another all ireland and have another go the following year. Thats how it should be." We all know which Provence is designed to protect the strong without even having the decency to pretend they care about the weak.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4539 - 27/05/2026 18:42:02
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Replying To Onion Breath: "I'd go along with the proposal as set out in opening post but with a couple of changes:
1. Top team in each group straight into Leinster final. This makes it very competitive at the top of each group for the top teams. No taking it handy early or being able to afford one defeat as one slip and you're very likely to miss out on a Leinster final. I think that compensates for the fact that by extending the teams to 8 you are diluting the standard overall, but as pointed out it gives real hope of survival to likes of CW, LS, KE, WH or AM or whoever.
2. Second and third teams in each group to play off for the last remaining Leinster spot in the All Ireland. So runner up in A plays third in B and vice versa. Two winners play in what would be a preliminary All Ireland quarter final to decide the third Leinster team.
As set out, the bottom team in each group play off for relegation. That's still a meaningful game." 'Survival' in what, for what? These counties are uncompetitive in McCarthy Cup. What's the point of 'surviving' in a competition that you're uncompetitive in? There is no history of hurling sides becoming 'top6' counties due to their evolution relating to competition formats. An 8 team Leinster Championship would be absolutely ridiculous.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4749 - 27/05/2026 18:44:49
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Not a bad idea by any means to solve the huge 11 team All Ireland elephant in the room
eoghan6688 (Galway) - Posts: 167 - 27/05/2026 19:28:24
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Replying To Doylerwex: " Replying To Tadhg2020: "[quote=Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
<b>Group A</b>
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
<b>Group B</b>
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?"</div>I dont know why you would want this?
It diminishes the Leinster hurling Championship even further.
You mention Wexford not being down at joe mcdonagh cup level yet. Thats because of the insurance policy that the 6th team already gives you. This proposal is designed to protect the strong under the guise of promoting the weak.
Whats so wrong with winning the Joe McDonagh Cup and being promoted. Yes you may be relegated again but you get to go again and win another All Ireland the following year if you stick together. Whats so wrong with that? For Laois, Carlow, Kildare, Westmeath, Antrm(i note you didnt include them) and others the Joe is as good as it gets for winning a medal and an All Ireland. You may not value it in wexford but I can assure you that these counties do just as Ring, Rackard and Meagher winners do too. For many this is the pinnacle of their career and that shouldn't be dismissed.
We have a good system. Yes its flawed at the top end but it works very well in division 2, 3, 4 and 5. Everyone knows and understands the system because its a basic pyramid. Roscommon, where I live, are disappointed to be relegated back to Rackard after 1 year in Ring. The jump in standard was just too high this time as it was for kildare. Its not the end of the world though, as portrayed by most, as they get to go again next year. If they are good enough they will get back to CP, win another all ireland and have another go the following year. Thats how it should be." We all know which Provence is designed to protect the strong without even having the decency to pretend they care about the weak."]Why should we pretend anything? Im certainly not pretending. An average of 27k watch the Munster Championship in the Round Robin. Wexford couldn't get more than 4k to walk down the road last Saturday for the Galway game. Thats the difference. We've covered this many times before. I just dont understand why you would want to make it weaker.
Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 475 - 27/05/2026 22:54:12
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: " Replying To Tadhg2020: "[quote=Pikeman96: "Starting new thread on this as I think maybe deserves separate consideration from other format discussions, and is probably a more realistic proposal than a 16-team All-Ireland SHC. Relates to Neil McManus's suggestion of a two-group Leinster Championship, with eight teams.
Take the final standings from this year's table, and then consider the top two in the McDonagh Cup (Carlow & Laois) as numbers 7 and 8. Put 1, 3, 5, 7 into Group A, and 2, 4, 6, 8 into Group B, and what you'd get is this:
<b>Group A</b>
Dublin, Offaly, Wexford, Carlow
<b>Group B</b>
Galway, Kilkenny, Kildare, Laois
Winner of Group A would play runner-up of Group B in a semi-final, and vice versa. The two bottom teams would play off in a relegation final.
Consider what that would mean for the teams that would normally be the ones expected to fluctuate between this championship and the Joe McDonagh (i.e. Carlow, Kildare, Laois. And yes, I know that in the current state of affairs, Wexford are perilously close to joining that group, but we're not there yet!)
Pro: Just one of them would make the drop in any given year. The others would get at least one more year in the higher tier.
Con: Unless they unexpectedly made a semi-final, just three games per year that they'd actually want, rather than five. They wouldn't want to be in the other type of possible fourth match (i.e. the relegation final).
Would obviously have a knock-on effect on the McDonagh Cup and other lower tier competitions too, but won't drill into that at this stage.
Anyone any thoughts?"</div>I dont know why you would want this?
It diminishes the Leinster hurling Championship even further.
You mention Wexford not being down at joe mcdonagh cup level yet. Thats because of the insurance policy that the 6th team already gives you. This proposal is designed to protect the strong under the guise of promoting the weak.
Whats so wrong with winning the Joe McDonagh Cup and being promoted. Yes you may be relegated again but you get to go again and win another All Ireland the following year if you stick together. Whats so wrong with that? For Laois, Carlow, Kildare, Westmeath, Antrm(i note you didnt include them) and others the Joe is as good as it gets for winning a medal and an All Ireland. You may not value it in wexford but I can assure you that these counties do just as Ring, Rackard and Meagher winners do too. For many this is the pinnacle of their career and that shouldn't be dismissed.
We have a good system. Yes its flawed at the top end but it works very well in division 2, 3, 4 and 5. Everyone knows and understands the system because its a basic pyramid. Roscommon, where I live, are disappointed to be relegated back to Rackard after 1 year in Ring. The jump in standard was just too high this time as it was for kildare. Its not the end of the world though, as portrayed by most, as they get to go again next year. If they are good enough they will get back to CP, win another all ireland and have another go the following year. Thats how it should be." "It diminishes the Leinster hurling Championship even further." Even further? Could you elaborate on this and tell us how Leinster is already "diminished"? "Everyone knows and understands the system because its a basic pyramid."A pyramid system that Munster are not involved in, because it's a closed shop."]The 6th team acts as an insurance policy. That diminishes the competition. It was originally a 5 team competition. This has been well debated already. Wexford benefitted from the 6th team this time. Yep, Munster is a closed shop and will remain so. Its part of the reason why its the best and best supported competition in GAA. People pay to be there.
Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 475 - 27/05/2026 23:01:10
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "'Survival' in what, for what? These counties are uncompetitive in McCarthy Cup. What's the point of 'surviving' in a competition that you're uncompetitive in? There is no history of hurling sides becoming 'top6' counties due to their evolution relating to competition formats. An 8 team Leinster Championship would be absolutely ridiculous." Survival in a higher level of competition with the ambition that after maybe 2-3 years of competition at that level they can close the gap, that's what and for what.
If you don't like an 8 team Leinster championship with a focus of developing Leinster counties then maybe Galway could give Munster another go, and even the numbers up there to 6.
Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1857 - 27/05/2026 23:43:35
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2 group Leinster is the only way to go
2 x groups of 4 - all finished by mid May
A - Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Kilkenny
B - Wexford, Kildare, Carlow, Laois
Leinster Semi - Winner A v Winner B + 2nd A v 3rd A - June bank holiday
Leinster Play offs (June bank holiday)
PO1 - 4th A v 4th B,
PO2 - 2nd B v 3rd B
Loser PO1 v loser PO2 - winner into All Ireland series (played 1st weekend June)
Leinster would have 5 spots in the All Ireland prelim q finals
All Ireland Prelim qfinals
Munster 3 v Leinster 7
Leinster 3 v Leinster 6
Munster 4 v Leinster 5
Leinster 4 v Munster 4
The winners of the above progress to All Ireland qfinals, away v provincial finalists
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1842 - 28/05/2026 10:26:29
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "2 group Leinster is the only way to go
2 x groups of 4 - all finished by mid May
A - Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Kilkenny
B - Wexford, Kildare, Carlow, Laois
Leinster Semi - Winner A v Winner B + 2nd A v 3rd A - June bank holiday
Leinster Play offs (June bank holiday)
PO1 - 4th A v 4th B,
PO2 - 2nd B v 3rd B
Loser PO1 v loser PO2 - winner into All Ireland series (played 1st weekend June)
Leinster would have 5 spots in the All Ireland prelim q finals
All Ireland Prelim qfinals
Munster 3 v Leinster 7
Leinster 3 v Leinster 6
Munster 4 v Leinster 5
Leinster 4 v Munster 4
The winners of the above progress to All Ireland qfinals, away v provincial finalists" Promotion/Relegation?
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1962 - 28/05/2026 11:03:25
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It is a Leinster matter. In a group of 8 - 2 home and 2 away games. Top 4 after 4 rounds into semi finals. The other 4 into relegation semi finals. 4 seeded brackets. All teams playing 1 team from each seeded bracket.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9757 - 28/05/2026 11:14:11
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "2 group Leinster is the only way to go
2 x groups of 4 - all finished by mid May
A - Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Kilkenny
B - Wexford, Kildare, Carlow, Laois
Leinster Semi - Winner A v Winner B + 2nd A v 3rd A - June bank holiday
Leinster Play offs (June bank holiday)
PO1 - 4th A v 4th B,
PO2 - 2nd B v 3rd B
Loser PO1 v loser PO2 - winner into All Ireland series (played 1st weekend June)
Leinster would have 5 spots in the All Ireland prelim q finals
All Ireland Prelim qfinals
Munster 3 v Leinster 7
Leinster 3 v Leinster 6
Munster 4 v Leinster 5
Leinster 4 v Munster 4
The winners of the above progress to All Ireland qfinals, away v provincial finalists" Bit like what you wrote over on the 16-team thread, issue here is that the idea behind the proposal is to give more games to the "weaker" or "McDonagh" teams against the ones who are generally stronger.
But you've got the current top four teams in one group, and the next four in another (and unfortunately, Wexford is part of that second group!). None of the weaker counties in Group B would get to test themselves in group games against the stronger counties in Group A at all.
There'd also remain the issue where even losing all your group games and coming fourth would still leave you with a pathway to the All-Ireland stages, no matter which group were in. And fourth in Group A would always be fancied to beat fourth in Group B.
You'd basically be handing four Leinster counties a free pass to the All-Ireland stages, while all five teams in the Munster SHC would have to battle it out for their four spots, with one of them missing out. There's a severe inequity there.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3711 - 28/05/2026 11:50:52
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Replying To Onion Breath: "Survival in a higher level of competition with the ambition that after maybe 2-3 years of competition at that level they can close the gap, that's what and for what.
If you don't like an 8 team Leinster championship with a focus of developing Leinster counties then maybe Galway could give Munster another go, and even the numbers up there to 6." But there isn't a shred of evidence in the last 100 years of hurling that just tweaking a competition format can dramatically change the standard of intercounty sides.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4749 - 28/05/2026 12:14:20
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#Tadhg2020 -
So the fact that several Munster counties have their best teams in decades at the same time is nothing to do with it? I think you will find thats more the reason than it being a closed shop.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19855 - 28/05/2026 12:46:18
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#tadhg2020 the lack of support we have right now is because we arent good enough to compete for AIs at the minute.
And for Leinster in general the population of most of our hurling counties is a factor too, as is geography. We are far further from Offaly and Galway than Limerick is from anywhere in Munster. Fact is that Dublin is more a soccer, rugby and Football county than a hurling county also. Though no doubt if they get to an AI Hurling Final a bandwagon will start rolling as it did for Limerick and Clare and even Waterford .
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19855 - 28/05/2026 12:53:12
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "2 group Leinster is the only way to go
2 x groups of 4 - all finished by mid May
A - Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Kilkenny
B - Wexford, Kildare, Carlow, Laois
Leinster Semi - Winner A v Winner B + 2nd A v 3rd A - June bank holiday
Leinster Play offs (June bank holiday)
PO1 - 4th A v 4th B,
PO2 - 2nd B v 3rd B
Loser PO1 v loser PO2 - winner into All Ireland series (played 1st weekend June)
Leinster would have 5 spots in the All Ireland prelim q finals
All Ireland Prelim qfinals
Munster 3 v Leinster 7
Leinster 3 v Leinster 6
Munster 4 v Leinster 5
Leinster 4 v Munster 4
The winners of the above progress to All Ireland qfinals, away v provincial finalists" So, in a competition with 13 teams (5 Munster, 8 Leinster) you have 12 qualifying (8 to prelim QFs and 4 to QFs). The only team missing out is Leinster 8. You have Munster 4 in twice so I assume you mean all Munster teams qualify. That would make practically every round robin game (22 in total) pretty meaningless. So that's the Munster and Leinster championships largely destroyed as well as the McDonagh. Hhhhmmmm....
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 177 - 28/05/2026 13:25:44
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "But there isn't a shred of evidence in the last 100 years of hurling that just tweaking a competition format can dramatically change the standard of intercounty sides." I don't think there's going to be very many teams emerge from outside the traditional top 9 or 10 counties to compete but you have to try to give teams a chance.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4685 - 28/05/2026 14:31:44
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