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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I didn't expect that to be honest... Last night was incredibly poor.

Thought we were better than hungry overall to be honest but that was shocking.

The only bit of optimism I can find now is in the 2016 campaign we got only a point out of Scotland and thought it was over, then went and beat Germany.

Hope springs eternal"
Personally, I just couldn't believe what I was looking at. The whole team, apart from Ferguson and Kelliher, looked as if they just didn't know how to play the game. The defending for the second goal was nonexistent. Would we even be Jun B level at the minute ?

Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1855 - 10/09/2025 09:30:40    2635531

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "We had more possession than Hungary when they went down to 10 men and wasted nearly all of it. Hungary defence delighted to see. predictably. one high ball after the next launched on top of them. We look bereft of confidence."
We had started to take over before the red card in that game and crosses did cause them a lot of problems so I don't think there's anything wrong with that really. Their keeper made a few good saves so we had chances to win it and in my opinion should have.

Last night was totally different. After we scored instead of going after them most of our lads looked like they couldn't wait for the whistle to blow.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3919 - 10/09/2025 10:29:56    2635541

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "The best players we've produced have always been our own.

Giles, Brady, McGrath, Keanes, duff, o shea, Coleman etc."
Not the case, no. O'Shea wasn't better than Mark Lawrenson, nor as good either imo. Coleman no better a fullback than a host of Ireland caps that were England eligible, including Chris Hughton for example. You didn't list Irwin, who should be on your list, well ahead of Coleman imo.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4407 - 10/09/2025 10:33:34    2635546

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Not the case, no. O'Shea wasn't better than Mark Lawrenson, nor as good either imo. Coleman no better a fullback than a host of Ireland caps that were England eligible, including Chris Hughton for example. You didn't list Irwin, who should be on your list, well ahead of Coleman imo."
Very difficult to compare players of previous eras. The older generations were only competing for places against players from Britain mainly. In recent decades, our players are up against players from all over the world. It's a lot harder to make an English top-flight team now than it was back then. They have a global pick now.
Another point in general is that a lot of European nations have improved massively in the last 20 to 30 years. What used to be footballing backwaters and minnows now have much better structures in place and are much more competitive.
While we had a big advantage of players moving to England to play at a good level, many countries had little to no football infrastructure. Countries like Armenia, Georgia, even the likes of Luxembourg are far better at developing players now.
That coupled with very poor management from the FAI over decades means we have very little advantage over these teams anymore.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2526 - 10/09/2025 11:41:02    2635558

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "The big change I see is that England is locking up it's talent these days. 40 or 50years ago, the likes of Grealish and Rice would have wound up in the Ireland side. In the 70s and 80s and 90s, you had the farcical scenario that England eligible players were playing for Ireland, even though some of them were superior to the players winning England caps at the time. The likes of Lawrenson, Sheedy, Townsend and many more.

Whatever about a goalie, a backline and front line, this current Ireland international squad has NO international class midfielders, which imo is why we struggle in almost every game these days."
There are no top class players of any description in the Ireland squad. Kellegher a very solid goalie. But no top clubs were banging the door down to sign him. All you have to do is look at the clubs the Irish squad play for. Barely any with experience of Champions league. Similar again for the second tier European competitions. A handful play for mid table to bottom half Premier leagure. The vast majority playing down the divisions. We aren't even getting the odd very talented individual anymore. Hungary have two lads playing for Liverpool and another few playing for RB Leipzig and Galatasary, clubs operating at a much higher level than those the Irish lads are at.

FullOfPorter (Roscommon) - Posts: 350 - 10/09/2025 11:46:41    2635559

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Very difficult to compare players of previous eras. The older generations were only competing for places against players from Britain mainly. In recent decades, our players are up against players from all over the world. It's a lot harder to make an English top-flight team now than it was back then. They have a global pick now.
Another point in general is that a lot of European nations have improved massively in the last 20 to 30 years. What used to be footballing backwaters and minnows now have much better structures in place and are much more competitive.
While we had a big advantage of players moving to England to play at a good level, many countries had little to no football infrastructure. Countries like Armenia, Georgia, even the likes of Luxembourg are far better at developing players now.
That coupled with very poor management from the FAI over decades means we have very little advantage over these teams anymore."
What they're doing in Armenia or Luxembourg or Kosovo doesn't alter the fact that players like Cullen and Knight and Mullumby aren't within an asses roar of the midfielders we were fielding 20 30 40 or 50 years ago, whether these midfielders were homegrown or 'signed' from England/Scotland.

Your theory on the more competitive Premiership doesn't explain why our players are currently so bad relative to to even quite recent standards. It explains to some extent why they're playing for 'unfashionable' clubs, but it doesn't explain why we're rubbish relative to sides we could beat handily 10 20 30 years ago.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4407 - 10/09/2025 12:52:24    2635568

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Russian act of aggression on Poland. Putin not just happy to interfere with Ukraine. Between Qatar yesterday and Poland today, the Israelis and Russians are now completely ignoring the US and neither have any interest in ceasefires.

FullOfPorter (Roscommon) - Posts: 350 - 10/09/2025 13:02:43    2635570

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I personally would vote for Independent Galwegian Catherine Connolly or possibly staunch GAA man Jim Gavin.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2658 - 10/09/2025 13:27:46    2635573

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Very difficult to compare players of previous eras. The older generations were only competing for places against players from Britain mainly. In recent decades, our players are up against players from all over the world. It's a lot harder to make an English top-flight team now than it was back then. They have a global pick now.
Another point in general is that a lot of European nations have improved massively in the last 20 to 30 years. What used to be footballing backwaters and minnows now have much better structures in place and are much more competitive.
While we had a big advantage of players moving to England to play at a good level, many countries had little to no football infrastructure. Countries like Armenia, Georgia, even the likes of Luxembourg are far better at developing players now.
That coupled with very poor management from the FAI over decades means we have very little advantage over these teams anymore."
Almost impossible to compare with previous eras add in the advances in coaching and conditioning etc. While there is definitely way more competition with global players, we are still not producing players of a good enough standard, if they were good enough some would still make it through. The likes of Slovenia and Hungary are able to produce one or two individuals of much better talent than we can. There was a slide happening for a long time but it's only coming home to roost now. We don't produce players who are comfortable on and good with the ball. We usually had at least one or two good defenders, a good winger type player and maybe a decent forward which allowed us to set up in a way that we could still be effective even in the post Keane era. But now good players in those rolls have dried up.

You also have to factor in that it was much harder to qualify for international tournaments in the 80s and early 90s when the Euros or World Cup had far fewer teams. If you are half middling now you should be able to qualify.

FullOfPorter (Roscommon) - Posts: 350 - 10/09/2025 13:31:39    2635574

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Not the case, no. O'Shea wasn't better than Mark Lawrenson, nor as good either imo. Coleman no better a fullback than a host of Ireland caps that were England eligible, including Chris Hughton for example. You didn't list Irwin, who should be on your list, well ahead of Coleman imo."
Irwin is a fairly obvious omission alright.

Comparing players from different eras is very subjective but I'm terms of achievement o shea is unbelievably decorated and full value for that.

I'd argue Coleman's sustained an elite level for longer than Irwin but not saying he's better. I included Coleman because he's the best of his generation.

You also need to be careful with how exactly you refer to those eligible for England. Our culture is complex in this regard.

Is Dermot O'Leary Irish? His culture is.

Have you watched interviews with some of those players and how they view themselves?

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3919 - 10/09/2025 14:07:05    2635588

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Very difficult to compare players of previous eras. The older generations were only competing for places against players from Britain mainly. In recent decades, our players are up against players from all over the world. It's a lot harder to make an English top-flight team now than it was back then. They have a global pick now.
Another point in general is that a lot of European nations have improved massively in the last 20 to 30 years. What used to be footballing backwaters and minnows now have much better structures in place and are much more competitive.
While we had a big advantage of players moving to England to play at a good level, many countries had little to no football infrastructure. Countries like Armenia, Georgia, even the likes of Luxembourg are far better at developing players now.
That coupled with very poor management from the FAI over decades means we have very little advantage over these teams anymore."
Spot on about that.

The first time we qualified for a major tournament there were far fewer nations in Europe.

Even English lads are struggling to get into the top clubs in England now.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3919 - 10/09/2025 14:13:31    2635589

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Replying To FullOfPorter:  "There are no top class players of any description in the Ireland squad. Kellegher a very solid goalie. But no top clubs were banging the door down to sign him. All you have to do is look at the clubs the Irish squad play for. Barely any with experience of Champions league. Similar again for the second tier European competitions. A handful play for mid table to bottom half Premier leagure. The vast majority playing down the divisions. We aren't even getting the odd very talented individual anymore. Hungary have two lads playing for Liverpool and another few playing for RB Leipzig and Galatasary, clubs operating at a much higher level than those the Irish lads are at."
I agree with some of that but the European thing is a bit of a cod. You're better off at the top end of the championship than any league in Europe outside the top 5 or so.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3919 - 10/09/2025 14:15:03    2635590

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Irwin is a fairly obvious omission alright.

Comparing players from different eras is very subjective but I'm terms of achievement o shea is unbelievably decorated and full value for that.

I'd argue Coleman's sustained an elite level for longer than Irwin but not saying he's better. I included Coleman because he's the best of his generation.

You also need to be careful with how exactly you refer to those eligible for England. Our culture is complex in this regard.

Is Dermot O'Leary Irish? His culture is.

Have you watched interviews with some of those players and how they view themselves?"
Kilbane, David Connolly and Breen see themselves very much as Irish. We also don't have the same level of emigration into England anymore that was on such a scale with the 40s-80s which produced lads born in England but very proud of their Irishness from Mick McCarthy right up to Kevin Kilbane.

FullOfPorter (Roscommon) - Posts: 350 - 10/09/2025 15:59:13    2635605

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Irwin is a fairly obvious omission alright.

Comparing players from different eras is very subjective but I'm terms of achievement o shea is unbelievably decorated and full value for that.

I'd argue Coleman's sustained an elite level for longer than Irwin but not saying he's better. I included Coleman because he's the best of his generation.

You also need to be careful with how exactly you refer to those eligible for England. Our culture is complex in this regard.

Is Dermot O'Leary Irish? His culture is.

Have you watched interviews with some of those players and how they view themselves?"
The point isn't how they view themselves. The point is that England are capping them now and locking them up. A generation or two ago, England would have lazily allowed Grealish and Rice to fall into Ireland's hands, and we'd all be warm and fuzzy about how 'they view themselves'. That gravy is stopped, and Ireland are suffering for it.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4407 - 10/09/2025 16:20:01    2635610

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Replying To FullOfPorter:  "Almost impossible to compare with previous eras add in the advances in coaching and conditioning etc. While there is definitely way more competition with global players, we are still not producing players of a good enough standard, if they were good enough some would still make it through. The likes of Slovenia and Hungary are able to produce one or two individuals of much better talent than we can. There was a slide happening for a long time but it's only coming home to roost now. We don't produce players who are comfortable on and good with the ball. We usually had at least one or two good defenders, a good winger type player and maybe a decent forward which allowed us to set up in a way that we could still be effective even in the post Keane era. But now good players in those rolls have dried up.

You also have to factor in that it was much harder to qualify for international tournaments in the 80s and early 90s when the Euros or World Cup had far fewer teams. If you are half middling now you should be able to qualify."
You forgot to factor in that Eastern Europe and Western 'Soviet Union' split into 20 pieces or more too. What's more, most of these 20 are probably better than Ireland still. Soccer is one thing, but the real calamity has been our proud Eurovision legacy!!

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4407 - 10/09/2025 16:25:46    2635616

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Replying To FullOfPorter:  "Kilbane, David Connolly and Breen see themselves very much as Irish. We also don't have the same level of emigration into England anymore that was on such a scale with the 40s-80s which produced lads born in England but very proud of their Irishness from Mick McCarthy right up to Kevin Kilbane."
That's absolutely a factor. Whe you start moving to next generation, the link to Ireland becomes more tenuous. The 'granny rule' was used to refer to aot of the British born players who played for us under Charlton, but in reality the vast majority of them had at least one Irish parent. There were only a few of the Italia 90 squad who qualified on the basis of a grandparent. All of the other British born players qualified through at least one parent and often both.
There are fewer people in Britain now with an Irish parent.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2526 - 10/09/2025 16:29:08    2635618

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I agree with some of that but the European thing is a bit of a cod. You're better off at the top end of the championship than any league in Europe outside the top 5 or so."
I'd agree very little value in the likes if a Qurabag or even the Scandanavian teams, same with Celtic really. But you do have good players from smaller nations playing with the likes of the German, Italian and English clubs in Europe. You wouldn't mind the amount of Championship players we have if we had even one really top quality player playing at a good club with a winning mentality. Even thinking back at the Trap days, Jesus we still had O'Shea, Duff, Dunne, Keane, Doyle...I know some of those were coming to the end of their careers at that point. Glenn Whelan mentioned there recently that we have a lot of players who are just used to losing even with their clubs.

FullOfPorter (Roscommon) - Posts: 350 - 10/09/2025 16:35:10    2635620

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "You forgot to factor in that Eastern Europe and Western 'Soviet Union' split into 20 pieces or more too. What's more, most of these 20 are probably better than Ireland still. Soccer is one thing, but the real calamity has been our proud Eurovision legacy!!"
Very true, the USSR and Yugoslavia breaking up added a lot of new teams into the mix.

FullOfPorter (Roscommon) - Posts: 350 - 10/09/2025 17:04:12    2635624

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "What they're doing in Armenia or Luxembourg or Kosovo doesn't alter the fact that players like Cullen and Knight and Mullumby aren't within an asses roar of the midfielders we were fielding 20 30 40 or 50 years ago, whether these midfielders were homegrown or 'signed' from England/Scotland.

Your theory on the more competitive Premiership doesn't explain why our players are currently so bad relative to to even quite recent standards. It explains to some extent why they're playing for 'unfashionable' clubs, but it doesn't explain why we're rubbish relative to sides we could beat handily 10 20 30 years ago."
Nowhere did I claim it is. It is a factor in them not being as poor as they used to be though, and therefore being harder for us to beat. When I was a young ladeen, Turkey were a team we'd be expected to hammer. They were regularly beaten well by more developed teams. They improved massively in the 90s, and while they're wildly inconsistent still, they're a proper football team now.
Apart from the tiny countries population wise, there aren't too many pushovers left. Iceland were very unlucky not get a point against France last night, in Paris. The former minnows are all much better organised now and are developing footballers to a decent level.
A lot of those countries hadn't a pot to p1ss in, never mind spend money of football. I remember a story about the FAI sending money to the Latvian FA to help pay for jerseys and other equipment.

There's no doubt our quality of player is lower now than it was a few decades ago. I've already given you a reason why our players are so bad. The FAI have been asleep at the wheel for decades. Player development in the country is a long way behind much of Europe and it's not improving any time soon.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2526 - 10/09/2025 17:25:10    2635627

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "We had started to take over before the red card in that game and crosses did cause them a lot of problems so I don't think there's anything wrong with that really. Their keeper made a few good saves so we had chances to win it and in my opinion should have.

Last night was totally different. After we scored instead of going after them most of our lads looked like they couldn't wait for the whistle to blow."
You didn't think there was anything wrong with continously kicking high ball on top of the Hungary defence? We had an extra msn and didn't try to play around them, a bit of variation of tactics. What chances we created were poor ones. Ida goal was only because Hungary briefly switched off and gave him a bit of space. The manager said they did well in that second half. Nothing about how he could have had better attacking tactics or maybe he has none.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8243 - 10/09/2025 21:31:02    2635655

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