National Forum

Non-Gaa Forum

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Galway9801:  "The current city team would destroy any united team of the Premier league era, better fitness, better players.
I don't really agree either that united faced stiffer competition. Which opposition team throughout the 90s and 2000s were great? City in the early 2010s maybe?
The vast majority of players throughout the Fergie era were discovered and nurtured at other clubs.

And finally, a united fan accusing fans of any other club of being glory hunters will never stop being ironic."
Name the better 'players' the current City team have that would destroy any United team of the Premier League era.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7390 - 06/05/2024 00:30:41    2543254

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "Name the better 'players' the current City team have that would destroy any United team of the Premier League era."
Any starting 11 they choose to put out…

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1977 - 06/05/2024 08:44:15    2543266

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "Name the better 'players' the current City team have that would destroy any United team of the Premier League era."
Usually when someone asks someone else to name this or that is comes across as a suggestion that they don't think such and such exists.
Are you suggesting that NONE of the city players of the last 15 years would easily outperform their untied counterparts of the 90s and 2000s?
I doubt a single city striker of the last 10 years would have had any trouble getting a few goals out of Steve Bruce, for example.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1756 - 06/05/2024 08:45:00    2543267

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "The current city team would destroy any united team of the Premier league era, better fitness, better players.
I don't really agree either that united faced stiffer competition. Which opposition team throughout the 90s and 2000s were great? City in the early 2010s maybe?
The vast majority of players throughout the Fergie era were discovered and nurtured at other clubs.

And finally, a united fan accusing fans of any other club of being glory hunters will never stop being ironic."
Of course they would. They're very different eras. Limerick would beat any previous hurling champions too but that doesn't make them the best ever.

United were miles ahead of the curve at that time, and paved the way for modern sports nutrition standards.

The team was built around the Neville's, Nicky Butt, scholes, Giggs, Beckham. They're all United youth players. Frankly I'm shocked that you need that explained to you. Grand he bought good players too with club generated revenue rather than buying their own season tickets.

I'm pretty sure Ryan Giggs has more trophies than city.

He had to contend with Wenger's invincibles. An arsenal team that included basically all of the club's all time greats. Actually felt bad for Wenger when he retired. Amazing manager with a terrific team that won very little. United were near impossible to compete with at the time.

I've already explained why the champions League was so impressive. They had to beat every elite team to win it, with one exception being real Madrid who weren't great at that time.

City are exceptionally lucky that no other top team is producing consistently at the moment.

Ferguson continued to win when Chelsea and city started producing too, and the second champions League included the defeat of a Barcelona side that are arguably the best club team ever.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2753 - 06/05/2024 09:37:00    2543275

Link

Replying To Viking66:  "Arsenal were never world class in the 90s. They never even won a European Cup. And I think you will find that if you add up all the money spent on players since the Premier League started, and adjusted it for inflation, Manchester United would be top of the list by a considerable distance, probably followed by Chelsea. They had one good class of players come through at the same time, the so called class of 92, but only 4 of them played in the European Cup final. The other 9 or 10 lads used were all expensive imports."
Were they though?

Stam and Yorke were the only big money buys that season.

Scholes obviously would have played if not for suspension.

Arsenal were excellent at the time, but in fairness English teams just weren't winning in Europe at that time. They were banned from Europe for some of it. They had keown, seaman, Adams, berghamp, anelka etc. That was a top team. They won the double and beat United (the best team in the world) 3 nil at the beginning of that season.

Granted arsenal were much better in the early 00s with Henry, Peres, lumberg, viera etc.

United have spent the most no doubt. But they're free to do what they like with club generated revenue and trophy money.

City, and to a lesser extent Chelsea are very different propositions.

The fact that city have been allowed to continue competing in Europe makes a mockery of financial fair play rules.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2753 - 06/05/2024 09:45:39    2543278

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "Usually when someone asks someone else to name this or that is comes across as a suggestion that they don't think such and such exists.
Are you suggesting that NONE of the city players of the last 15 years would easily outperform their untied counterparts of the 90s and 2000s?
I doubt a single city striker of the last 10 years would have had any trouble getting a few goals out of Steve Bruce, for example."
I think they point they're making is that a greater proportion of United players were the best in their position at that moment in time. Which I would say is correct.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2753 - 06/05/2024 09:47:06    2543279

Link

Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Any starting 11 they choose to put out…"
This season's City keeper and defence isn't better than Fergie's United team. They can play ball but too leaky at the back. You think Dias and Akanji are better centre backs than Stam and Ferdinand? Rodri doing all the hard work for City defence. Class player but their balance is off this season. Gundogan's a big loss. If Pep wasn't putting more faith in Foden this season like previously Arsenal would be champions. De Bruyne and Haaland are injury prone. Haaland benefitted from a 2 month break last season. He's class but City need to work more to his strengths but have more threats than him De Bruyne and Foden.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7390 - 06/05/2024 10:41:41    2543290

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "Of course they would. They're very different eras. Limerick would beat any previous hurling champions too but that doesn't make them the best ever.

United were miles ahead of the curve at that time, and paved the way for modern sports nutrition standards.

The team was built around the Neville's, Nicky Butt, scholes, Giggs, Beckham. They're all United youth players. Frankly I'm shocked that you need that explained to you. Grand he bought good players too with club generated revenue rather than buying their own season tickets.

I'm pretty sure Ryan Giggs has more trophies than city.

He had to contend with Wenger's invincibles. An arsenal team that included basically all of the club's all time greats. Actually felt bad for Wenger when he retired. Amazing manager with a terrific team that won very little. United were near impossible to compete with at the time.

I've already explained why the champions League was so impressive. They had to beat every elite team to win it, with one exception being real Madrid who weren't great at that time.

City are exceptionally lucky that no other top team is producing consistently at the moment.

Ferguson continued to win when Chelsea and city started producing too, and the second champions League included the defeat of a Barcelona side that are arguably the best club team ever."
"Club generated money"? So what you are saying is no other club in England should ever have been allowed to compete equally with Utd, as they didn't generate enough money to start with? How would they ever generate enough money then?
And by the way Doyler the net spend on players table for the last 5 years shows Chelsea at the top, and Man City in 6th. United in 2nd have spent nearly double the net spend on players as City over the last 5 years.

https://www.football365.com/news/transfers-premier-league-five-year-net-spend-man-utd-man-city

And historically Utd were always the biggest spenders, though that didn't always lead to success. Denis Law, Bryan Robson, Andy Cole, Veron, Ferdinand, and Pogba were all then record signings by any club.

Manchester Utd are the original glory boy club, along with Real Madrid!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12227 - 06/05/2024 10:50:45    2543293

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "Were they though?

Stam and Yorke were the only big money buys that season.

Scholes obviously would have played if not for suspension.

Arsenal were excellent at the time, but in fairness English teams just weren't winning in Europe at that time. They were banned from Europe for some of it. They had keown, seaman, Adams, berghamp, anelka etc. That was a top team. They won the double and beat United (the best team in the world) 3 nil at the beginning of that season.

Granted arsenal were much better in the early 00s with Henry, Peres, lumberg, viera etc.

United have spent the most no doubt. But they're free to do what they like with club generated revenue and trophy money.

City, and to a lesser extent Chelsea are very different propositions.

The fact that city have been allowed to continue competing in Europe makes a mockery of financial fair play rules."
FFP was partly brought in to protect the elite clubs though. To make sure no other clubs could ever get a seat at the top table. A very unfair system altogether.
What are your thoughts on the club owners using borrowed money to buy the club and then paying it back with your "club generated income"? Me and you could've bought the club on that basis;-)

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12227 - 06/05/2024 10:54:10    2543294

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "I think they point they're making is that a greater proportion of United players were the best in their position at that moment in time. Which I would say is correct."
Not sure that's true either. That team, because they didn't add too many players all in the one year, had great continuity, and continuity is very important in any team sport. Team mates know each others games and play better together as a result. The class of 92 obviously helped in this way too, playing together since their early teens.
But individually I disagree they were all the best. Yorke obviously commanded a world record fee, so was arguably the best player to move at that point in time. Teddy Sheringham, while still a Millwall legend, wouldn't have been the best in the world. Read the game well, was an amazing partner to Tony Cascarino for us, but was slow even as a young lad.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12227 - 06/05/2024 11:00:11    2543296

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "Of course they would. They're very different eras. Limerick would beat any previous hurling champions too but that doesn't make them the best ever.

United were miles ahead of the curve at that time, and paved the way for modern sports nutrition standards.

The team was built around the Neville's, Nicky Butt, scholes, Giggs, Beckham. They're all United youth players. Frankly I'm shocked that you need that explained to you. Grand he bought good players too with club generated revenue rather than buying their own season tickets.

I'm pretty sure Ryan Giggs has more trophies than city.

He had to contend with Wenger's invincibles. An arsenal team that included basically all of the club's all time greats. Actually felt bad for Wenger when he retired. Amazing manager with a terrific team that won very little. United were near impossible to compete with at the time.

I've already explained why the champions League was so impressive. They had to beat every elite team to win it, with one exception being real Madrid who weren't great at that time.

City are exceptionally lucky that no other top team is producing consistently at the moment.

Ferguson continued to win when Chelsea and city started producing too, and the second champions League included the defeat of a Barcelona side that are arguably the best club team ever."
I don't need it explained to me that some of uniteds greatest players came through their youth system. I never denied it, I just said that most of your greatest players didn't.
And I defenitely don't agree that Fergies European CV is as impressive as your suggesting, 2 champions leagues (including a freakish win over bayern) in over 20 years isn't that great. Rafa Benitez came close to equalling that in his first 3 years with Liverpool, with a squad that probably cost half as much as uniteds at the time. Zidane surpassed it in 3 years with Real.
And you can't have it both ways either. When united are dominant it's because they were "miles ahead of the curve", but when city are dominant it's because "no other team is producing consistently "?
I would argue that klopps Liverpool between 2018 and 2022 were a greater challenge than anything Fergie faced domestically in his career, including arsenal.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1756 - 06/05/2024 12:09:40    2543307

Link

The amount of childhoods Alex Ferguson's United teams ruined is beautiful to see. Decades later people are still trying to undermine their achievements and players' ability. The absolute best part is seeing them fool themselves into thinking they're giving a balanced, rational viewpoint. Delicious generational trauma :)

Never stop telling united fans Ferguson was overrated or all their players were individually overrated please or whatever it is you've told yourself to reach those conclusions and dismiss reality

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 06/05/2024 13:23:50    2543321

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "Not so sure about that. A big occasion but in my experience the rugby bandwagon is made up of people that don't play sports."
I understand but tbvh does that not apply to all sports including our own on a big day.

Cuhullain (Kildare) - Posts: 273 - 06/05/2024 15:29:17    2543333

Link

Replying To galwayford:  "Pity Kildare don't show the same enthusiasm for their GAA teams. Not too many fans at their Leinster semi final match.
It is said that in Kildare animals ie horses get better treatment than people."
Saving the money for punchestown ;)

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1929 - 06/05/2024 15:40:11    2543335

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "This season's City keeper and defence isn't better than Fergie's United team. They can play ball but too leaky at the back. You think Dias and Akanji are better centre backs than Stam and Ferdinand? Rodri doing all the hard work for City defence. Class player but their balance is off this season. Gundogan's a big loss. If Pep wasn't putting more faith in Foden this season like previously Arsenal would be champions. De Bruyne and Haaland are injury prone. Haaland benefitted from a 2 month break last season. He's class but City need to work more to his strengths but have more threats than him De Bruyne and Foden."
In fairness Ferdinand was the most expensive soccer player ever when Utd signed him. Dias and Akanji cost a lot less than the current most expensive players.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12227 - 06/05/2024 16:31:59    2543343

Link

Replying To Breffni40:  "The amount of childhoods Alex Ferguson's United teams ruined is beautiful to see. Decades later people are still trying to undermine their achievements and players' ability. The absolute best part is seeing them fool themselves into thinking they're giving a balanced, rational viewpoint. Delicious generational trauma :)

Never stop telling united fans Ferguson was overrated or all their players were individually overrated please or whatever it is you've told yourself to reach those conclusions and dismiss reality"
Utd did struggle to win the European Cup though, it has to be acknowledged. It took 2 quite extraordinary flukes for them to get their hands on that trophy under Fergie. One, the extra time carry on in Barcelona, when Bayern might have been 3up, only for woodwork interventions. Two, John Terry slips on his hole, trying to slot a winning peno. English sides haven't been comfortable in the European Cup since the Heysel disaster. They win a bit, but don't win as much as one would expect.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3502 - 06/05/2024 17:59:10    2543365

Link

Replying To Breffni40:  "The amount of childhoods Alex Ferguson's United teams ruined is beautiful to see. Decades later people are still trying to undermine their achievements and players' ability. The absolute best part is seeing them fool themselves into thinking they're giving a balanced, rational viewpoint. Delicious generational trauma :)

Never stop telling united fans Ferguson was overrated or all their players were individually overrated please or whatever it is you've told yourself to reach those conclusions and dismiss reality"
Ah yes, the 21st century habit of pretending to be amused by something that clearly irritates you. Shame hoganstand doesn't do emojis. You'd no doubt have three of them pasted next to your post.
"Generational trauma" ffs.
For what it's worth I've nothing really against united and I dislike Liverpool (arrogant, self righteous club and fanbase with huge self regard).
I was just disagreeing with some of what was being said.
Doyler was making the point that this city team is inferior to Fergies United teams (it isn't), that uniteds numerous achievements were gained through academy players (it wasn't) and that united faced much stiffer opposition than the current city team (they didn't).

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1756 - 06/05/2024 18:14:38    2543368

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "Ah yes, the 21st century habit of pretending to be amused by something that clearly irritates you. Shame hoganstand doesn't do emojis. You'd no doubt have three of them pasted next to your post.
"Generational trauma" ffs.
For what it's worth I've nothing really against united and I dislike Liverpool (arrogant, self righteous club and fanbase with huge self regard).
I was just disagreeing with some of what was being said.
Doyler was making the point that this city team is inferior to Fergies United teams (it isn't), that uniteds numerous achievements were gained through academy players (it wasn't) and that united faced much stiffer opposition than the current city team (they didn't)."
This is all very subjective and purely based on personal opinion.

For me, that united team as a moment in time was just far more impactful, and therefore significant than the current city team.

It doesn't help that they have no fans.

Agree to disagree I suppose.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2753 - 06/05/2024 19:46:59    2543382

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "This is all very subjective and purely based on personal opinion.

For me, that united team as a moment in time was just far more impactful, and therefore significant than the current city team.

It doesn't help that they have no fans.

Agree to disagree I suppose."
City likely have more real fans. As in fans who support their local club.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12227 - 06/05/2024 20:03:28    2543386

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "Ah yes, the 21st century habit of pretending to be amused by something that clearly irritates you. Shame hoganstand doesn't do emojis. You'd no doubt have three of them pasted next to your post.
"Generational trauma" ffs.
For what it's worth I've nothing really against united and I dislike Liverpool (arrogant, self righteous club and fanbase with huge self regard).
I was just disagreeing with some of what was being said.
Doyler was making the point that this city team is inferior to Fergies United teams (it isn't), that uniteds numerous achievements were gained through academy players (it wasn't) and that united faced much stiffer opposition than the current city team (they didn't)."
You hit the nail on the head there about Liverpool

bruffgael (Limerick) - Posts: 155 - 06/05/2024 22:38:56    2543411

Link