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Replying To BarneyGrant: "African Gael, why would you randomly compare 2017 and 2018 to 2020 and part of 2021! Makes absolutely no sense other than you are trying to manipulate statistics to prove a point. Which you fail to do.
Total deaths for last six years are:
2015 - 30127
2016 - 30667
2017 - 30418
2018 - 31116
2019 - 33134
2020 - 33842
During that time the population has grown by over 6%, so that accounts for a lot of the increase, and the mortality rate in 2020 was actually lower at 6.3 than in 2015 - 6.4.
You will also note that the biggest increase was between 2018 and 2019. Two pre Covid years. NOT between pre Covid and Covid years of 2019 and 2020.
So, the fact remains that the increase in deaths between the last full non covid year of 2019 and the Covid year of 2020 was consistent with annual increases for the last ten years.
So there have not been thousands of people dying of Covid who might otherwise not have done." Just a point Barney. Say, every other year events with large gatherings were cancelled, Social Distancing was practised, Hand shaking was done away with, people were restricted to our own areas and visiting to Nursing Homes were sharply curtailed, would there not be a huge reduction in the number of deaths in normal circumstances.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4522 - 11/08/2021 11:39:37
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "African Gael, you went to a lot of trouble pulling that 5,000 figure out of an irrelevant comparison to now claim that it means nothing. Which it doesn't because it is not a valid comparison as you now admit.
The numbers of people dying in 2019 and 2020 prove that thousands more people did not die as a consequence of Covid year on year, Which is what others here - who think their sister or their brother-in-law or cat is a scientific example - were claiming.
If you accept that older people are just dying from another factor added on to all the others which have mysteriously disappeared from the mortality statistics, then you have to accept that the "pandemic" is not as it is claimed to be,
Yes, it is another virus that joins many others, and it will be become endemic with more than likely the same small enough (as compared to cancer, COPD, heart disease etc) factor in the same mortality demographics there have been for generations.
If that is the case, then society cannot be shut down indefinitely. Which is kind of where this discussion began!" The term "pandemic" is being bandied about like snuff at a wedding. The latest medical research suggests that if we simply regard this as a pandemic and that a vaccination programme and specific protocols alone will suppress it we are destined to fail. This approach is too narrow.
World wide research shows that the virus is prevalent in environments where there are disadvantages in education, employment, housing, food, and environment. Non communicable diseases such as cancer, obesity, diabetes etc. and respiratory diseases are more prevalent in these disadvantaged groups and this is also where Covid is most deadly. So in order to combat this new threat, researchers reckon a more integrated approach that involves addressing poverty, unemployment, overcrowding , poor education etc will be necessary. Addressing socio-economic inequality is a necessary part of any attempt to tackle this virus. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that, for example, Dublin's inner city was very badly affected by the virus as were direct provision centres. I'm sure other disadvantaged groups in the country experienced very high rates of infection.
Co-morbidity is a part of the larger context. So really the figures you are citing are not really going ton prove anything. It would be interesting to a see a study based on rates of transmission within different socio-economic goups.
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 2025 - 11/08/2021 11:41:26
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "African Gael, you went to a lot of trouble pulling that 5,000 figure out of an irrelevant comparison to now claim that it means nothing. Which it doesn't because it is not a valid comparison as you now admit.
The numbers of people dying in 2019 and 2020 prove that thousands more people did not die as a consequence of Covid year on year, Which is what others here - who think their sister or their brother-in-law or cat is a scientific example - were claiming.
If you accept that older people are just dying from another factor added on to all the others which have mysteriously disappeared from the mortality statistics, then you have to accept that the "pandemic" is not as it is claimed to be,
Yes, it is another virus that joins many others, and it will be become endemic with more than likely the same small enough (as compared to cancer, COPD, heart disease etc) factor in the same mortality demographics there have been for generations.
If that is the case, then society cannot be shut down indefinitely. Which is kind of where this discussion began!" It's not about admitting anything, because the reason I posted the numbers was to show that excess numbers mean nothing but you are basing your whole argument around meaningless excess numbers.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 11/08/2021 11:42:30
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Will this thread have to renamed Kerry v Monaghan?? A idea I see floating around, bit unfair on Tyrone and what do Monaghan posters make of the idea. ?
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 11/08/2021 11:47:20
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We should start a covid thread to talk about the actual match
boomerang (Mayo) - Posts: 51 - 11/08/2021 11:55:15
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Replying To Oldtourman: "Just a point Barney. Say, every other year events with large gatherings were cancelled, Social Distancing was practised, Hand shaking was done away with, people were restricted to our own areas and visiting to Nursing Homes were sharply curtailed, would there not be a huge reduction in the number of deaths in normal circumstances." Excellent point in fact as it gets to the nub of the matter.
Of course the restrictions would reduce those mortality rates, So would banning alcohol, fatty foods, motorbikes, one night stands, and many other things!
The question is, would you like to live in a society like that?
The Nazis and the Communists promised that in return for surrendering freedom they'd guarantee you a place to live and three meals a day.
They didn't of course, but hundreds of millions believed that becoming state slaves and abdicating their responsibility for their own lives was a good bargain. That's how bees and ants and battery hens live. Not humans.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3688 - 11/08/2021 12:09:00
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I think Tyrone have the GAA over a barrel here and if they play their cards right this game will be rescheduled for a second time.
The GAA will buckle if they think they will lose revenue so Tyrone should make it clear soon that it's either a new date or they will be left with no option but to pull out.
I think the GAA will fold if there is enough pressure put on them.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 11/08/2021 12:20:08
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Replying To essmac: "I take it you never had a really bad touch of the old covid yourself, Barney : )
I had it for 8 months last year. Got it in Spain in March.
I box, cycle, run, non-smoker - reasonably fit middle-aged bloke.
I have an annual flu, which I never even took a day off work for. Never off ill a day in my life. So I have to laugh when i hear these "freedom loving" (where were they with their protests during the Troubles, I ask myself) conspiracy theorists saying it's "just like the flu".
I got double pneumonia, cant-get-up-off-the-floor type fatigue, feet and legs turning blue with chills, fever, any freckles scabbing and bleeding, permanent palpitations, breathlessness, kidney infection. Coughing so much you blacked out.
But yeah, just like the flu!
It is a lottery - 2 neighbours both got it - one of them an overweight smoker, showed no symptoms at all. Other one slim and healthy, in an emergency ward.
Looking at mortality figures misses the point in 2 ways: (1) it can mess with your health long term (heart damage, lung damage, fatigue), whether you survive or not; and (2) saying the excess mortality figures aren't too bad completely ignores the fact they'd have been much, much worse but for the fact that Ireland has a rational, science-led government.
The overriding priority of sensible governments has been to make sure the health service isn't overwhelmed with covid patients, so that there is at least some sort of service for other illnesses.
The GAA is about community, and I'd be bitterly disappointed not to see a full strength and properly prepared Tyrone having a go at this exciting and in-form Kerry team (who clearly didn't waste the Winter after the Cork ambush!); but if it is called off, you know what, we'll all manage.
A joke game vs a second string Tyrone team isn't going to be much use to Kerry anyway. This Kerry team is looking as good as I've ever seen them in recent years - a second-string Tyrone team wouldn't see which way they went. If Dublin get past Mayo, and it is a Dublin Kerry final, I'll certainly be shouting for Kerry …" Hope you back feeling good again Essmac. The covid thing is weird and there s no logic to it. I did nt get it T. G. but know many that did. Most had no symptoms at all. Some were a little uncomfortable and some ended up in hospital. Like yourself Essmac the guy I know that got the worst dose and nearly died is a fine fit strong mam in early 40s.It can effect people differently.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 4081 - 11/08/2021 12:30:03
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Replying To avonali: "My son, a fit non-smoker non drinker, in his late 20s has long Covid. He's wiped.
I'm middle-aged _ a charitable description- I've a few pounds on and I drink. I lost my sense of smell and taste for a week and had a slight temp for one night.
My wife had to be hospitalised because her oxygen levels were dropping. The walls of the house were shaking with her incessant coughing.
Thankfully she and I are ok now but my son has not fully recovered.
Anybody who thinks this is just like the flu is just not. properly informed. It's a b*sta*d of a thing," Hope all OK again Avon.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 4081 - 11/08/2021 12:38:27
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Tyrone have half their panel in isolation. That means half are not.
Assuming some of those in isolation have not got C19 but are close contacts they will have no return to play issues from 2 weeks off. In that regard I do not see how they can struggle to field a team.
Granted it will not be their best team and it is not ideal but a lot of teams had to line out when depleted teams.
Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1928 - 11/08/2021 12:41:30
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Excellent point in fact as it gets to the nub of the matter.
Of course the restrictions would reduce those mortality rates, So would banning alcohol, fatty foods, motorbikes, one night stands, and many other things!
The question is, would you like to live in a society like that?
The Nazis and the Communists promised that in return for surrendering freedom they'd guarantee you a place to live and three meals a day.
They didn't of course, but hundreds of millions believed that becoming state slaves and abdicating their responsibility for their own lives was a good bargain. That's how bees and ants and battery hens live. Not humans." All the things you mentioned aren't highly contagious though with the exception of one night stands of course.
:-).
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 11/08/2021 12:56:14
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Tyrone need to put the health and safety of their players above all else in my opinion. If they can field a side, great, but it's not the most important consideration.
The GAA should also give them the extra week that they need, even if it means moving the game somewhere else. We'll be long enough without top level GAA this winter, one extra week won't make a huge amount of difference.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 11/08/2021 13:15:16
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If you try to get a ticket for this match you'll be told you have to be in a separated pod, you have to wear a mask, wash your hands repeatedly, follow all other regulations to avoid Covid. Then half the Tyrone team are actually in quarantine because of Covid and they say they can play just 6 days later. It's hard to see how those 2 things can both be correct.
I'd say the match should be put back 2 weeks.
tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 11/08/2021 13:18:32
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Replying To Gleebo: "Tyrone need to put the health and safety of their players above all else in my opinion. If they can field a side, great, but it's not the most important consideration.
The GAA should also give them the extra week that they need, even if it means moving the game somewhere else. We'll be long enough without top level GAA this winter, one extra week won't make a huge amount of difference." You are so right. Some of the players will be fine, others won't get off as easy and will have a lot of fatigue after covid. It's great to see the management getting their priorities so right in making decisions based on player welfare. In my opinion this destroys the chance of us all seeing a great semi final or the real Tyrone.
border Gael (Monaghan) - Posts: 921 - 11/08/2021 13:26:27
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Replying To Gleebo: "Tyrone need to put the health and safety of their players above all else in my opinion. If they can field a side, great, but it's not the most important consideration.
The GAA should also give them the extra week that they need, even if it means moving the game somewhere else. We'll be long enough without top level GAA this winter, one extra week won't make a huge amount of difference." Totally right, and the safety of opposition players and officials. If World Cup and Olympics can be put back then surely a lock of weeks won't make a difference.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2401 - 11/08/2021 13:31:57
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Replying To wishfulthinkin: "so highly contagious that no other intercounty team across male or female, camogie, football or hurling, at any age level have been so badly affected..sure. More likely some of the starters are struggling with injury than all struck down so badly with something they've been vaccinated against. Sure lets stay locked down and postpone everything in the future instead of getting on with life. There's more footballers in tyrone than these few" Oh aye, couple of players not fully fit so pull the Covid stroke. Your right on 1 point, there are more footballers on Tyrone but very few in Cavan.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2401 - 11/08/2021 13:43:28
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Replying To avonali: " Replying To BarneyGrant: "African Gael, you went to a lot of trouble pulling that 5,000 figure out of an irrelevant comparison to now claim that it means nothing. Which it doesn't because it is not a valid comparison as you now admit.
The numbers of people dying in 2019 and 2020 prove that thousands more people did not die as a consequence of Covid year on year, Which is what others here - who think their sister or their brother-in-law or cat is a scientific example - were claiming.
If you accept that older people are just dying from another factor added on to all the others which have mysteriously disappeared from the mortality statistics, then you have to accept that the "pandemic" is not as it is claimed to be,
Yes, it is another virus that joins many others, and it will be become endemic with more than likely the same small enough (as compared to cancer, COPD, heart disease etc) factor in the same mortality demographics there have been for generations.
If that is the case, then society cannot be shut down indefinitely. Which is kind of where this discussion began!" The term "pandemic" is being bandied about like snuff at a wedding. The latest medical research suggests that if we simply regard this as a pandemic and that a vaccination programme and specific protocols alone will suppress it we are destined to fail. This approach is too narrow. World wide research shows that the virus is prevalent in environments where there are disadvantages in education, employment, housing, food, and environment. Non communicable diseases such as cancer, obesity, diabetes etc. and respiratory diseases are more prevalent in these disadvantaged groups and this is also where Covid is most deadly. So in order to combat this new threat, researchers reckon a more integrated approach that involves addressing poverty, unemployment, overcrowding , poor education etc will be necessary. Addressing socio-economic inequality is a necessary part of any attempt to tackle this virus. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that, for example, Dublin's inner city was very badly affected by the virus as were direct provision centres. I'm sure other disadvantaged groups in the country experienced very high rates of infection. Co-morbidity is a part of the larger context. So really the figures you are citing are not really going ton prove anything. It would be interesting to a see a study based on rates of transmission within different socio-economic goups."
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6193 - 11/08/2021 13:48:33
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Replying To boomerang: "If Tyrone cannot field a fully fit panel and have to withdraw it would be a damn shame, however should the GAA now put Donegal on notice that as losing provincial finalists that they would be given the chance to represent there province if the provincial champions cannot. Its a horrible idea for a team to get a walkover into the final." What are you on about?
Monaghan were the losing finalists.
Besides, the game should be pushed out or Tyrone fulfill the fixture with an available selection or a bye for Kerry. Putting another county in would be ridiculous.
Gator (Monaghan) - Posts: 238 - 11/08/2021 14:31:57
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Ok, if Tyrone can't field a team, what happens then? A bye for Kerry.... that would mean a possible break of 6 weeks without a competitive game for Kerry and it would be a huge advantage for Dublin or Mayo.
If they postpone for another couple of weeks and give Tyrone 2-3 weeks and then play Kerry, that would force Dublin or Mayo in a long period where they will not have a proper game and that is obviously an advantage to Tyrone or Kerry.
You really are caught between a rock and a hard place. Yikes!
captainshamrock (Kerry) - Posts: 23 - 11/08/2021 14:50:18
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Replying To Gator: "What are you on about?
Monaghan were the losing finalists.
Besides, the game should be pushed out or Tyrone fulfill the fixture with an available selection or a bye for Kerry. Putting another county in would be ridiculous." Relax Gator.... boomerang has seen his error and made comment on it, you can look again at the comments afterwards.
captainshamrock (Kerry) - Posts: 23 - 11/08/2021 14:52:21
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