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I take it you never had a really bad touch of the old covid yourself, Barney : ) I had it for 8 months last year. Got it in Spain in March. I box, cycle, run, non-smoker - reasonably fit middle-aged bloke. I have an annual flu, which I never even took a day off work for. Never off ill a day in my life. So I have to laugh when i hear these "freedom loving" (where were they with their protests during the Troubles, I ask myself) conspiracy theorists saying it's "just like the flu". I got double pneumonia, cant-get-up-off-the-floor type fatigue, feet and legs turning blue with chills, fever, any freckles scabbing and bleeding, permanent palpitations, breathlessness, kidney infection. Coughing so much you blacked out. But yeah, just like the flu! It is a lottery - 2 neighbours both got it - one of them an overweight smoker, showed no symptoms at all. Other one slim and healthy, in an emergency ward. Looking at mortality figures misses the point in 2 ways: (1) it can mess with your health long term (heart damage, lung damage, fatigue), whether you survive or not; and (2) saying the excess mortality figures aren't too bad completely ignores the fact they'd have been much, much worse but for the fact that Ireland has a rational, science-led government. The overriding priority of sensible governments has been to make sure the health service isn't overwhelmed with covid patients, so that there is at least some sort of service for other illnesses. The GAA is about community, and I'd be bitterly disappointed not to see a full strength and properly prepared Tyrone having a go at this exciting and in-form Kerry team (who clearly didn't waste the Winter after the Cork ambush!); but if it is called off, you know what, we'll all manage. A joke game vs a second string Tyrone team isn't going to be much use to Kerry anyway. This Kerry team is looking as good as I've ever seen them in recent years - a second-string Tyrone team wouldn't see which way they went. If Dublin get past Mayo, and it is a Dublin Kerry final, I'll certainly be shouting for Kerry … essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 10/08/2021 23:32:36 2369697 Link 2 |
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If a person dies of any ailment or even an accident but has had covid on the previous 4 weeks they are registered as a covid death. The way they get around it is by saying they don't die cos of covid but they die with covid. I got this info from someone working fairly high up in the health system. The government are obsessed with covid deaths but in truth that's not a correct number.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 4081 - 11/08/2021 00:02:22 2369699 Link 1 |
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If we had no lockdowns or social distancing in that time the death rate would have been much much higher. I can't understand how people can't see this. It's akin to climate change deniers.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11735 - 11/08/2021 07:41:02 2369707 Link 3 |
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African Gael, why would you randomly compare 2017 and 2018 to 2020 and part of 2021! Makes absolutely no sense other than you are trying to manipulate statistics to prove a point. Which you fail to do. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3688 - 11/08/2021 08:12:08 2369710 Link 1 |
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But that's exactly what you are saying! How can you say you support lockdown and then that you're not saying hide away in the same sentence? That tends to be exactly what you do during a lockdown no?? Maybe you should educate yourself first. And as for your " so the elderly dont count?" comment they literally couldn't have counted more over the last 18 months, society has completely stopped for them well so we were told. Young people have lost 2 years of their lives because of a virus that wont hurt them in order to protect the elderly and vulnerable, now that everyone is vaccinated it's time these groups looked after themselves. How does the needs of so few dictate to the lives of so many?
Northsidegaels (Meath) - Posts: 253 - 11/08/2021 08:23:42 2369712 Link 1 |
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My son, a fit non-smoker non drinker, in his late 20s has long Covid. He's wiped. I'm middle-aged _ a charitable description- I've a few pounds on and I drink. I lost my sense of smell and taste for a week and had a slight temp for one night. My wife had to be hospitalised because her oxygen levels were dropping. The walls of the house were shaking with her incessant coughing. Thankfully she and I are ok now but my son has not fully recovered. Anybody who thinks this is just like the flu is just not. properly informed. It's a b*sta*d of a thing, avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 2025 - 11/08/2021 10:15:31 2369732 Link 3 |
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If we had no lockdowns or social distancing in that time the death rate would have been much much higher. I can't understand how people can't see this. It's akin to climate change deniers."]. Logic and covid deniers don't tend to go hand in hand. . Let's look at Sweden, the EU country who tried the herd immunity approach when others were locking down. These are there deaths for the past 10 years. . . 2020. . . . . 97,941 2019. . . . . 88,766 2018. . . . . 92,185 2017. . . . . 91,972 2016. . . . . 90,982 2015. . . . . 90,907 2014. . . . . 88,976 2013. . . . . 90,402 2012. . . . . 91,938 2011. . . . . 89,938 Or how about Hungary. The EU country who eased restrictions earliest this year, despite pleas from the EU not to. They have had 3 times as many deaths per capita as Ireland (ROI) has. By keeping death rates only slightly above pre covid levels, its blatantly clear that we have saved 1000s of lives! cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5306 - 11/08/2021 10:20:18 2369733 Link 2 |
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FFS the Covid experts are out in force here. daytona11 (Kildare) - Posts: 4012 - 11/08/2021 10:31:40 2369736 Link 2 |
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Barney, I hate this term "excess deaths" or "excess mortality" because there is no target number that we are measuring against and even though I can show that 5418 more people died in the two year period (19-20) than in (17-18) the figures have absolutely no evidential value as regards to proving or disproving claims regarding how many people died as a result Covid so as stand-alone figures all they prove is how many people died during those period. On the other hand the core of your argument is built around excess deaths and "the numbers don't lie" but that argument is fundamentally flawed because if your "proofs" are based on excess death numbers then you cannot argue against someone else's numbers and say numbers have no evidential value, in other words you can't have it both ways. That's why I would never make an argument based on "excess deaths" because they do not show "the cause of death". The pitfall a few are falling into is that they are assuming wrongly that covid deaths should automatically match up the number of "excess deaths" which of course is nonsense given that it has largely been elderly people and those with underlying conditions who have died and that's where your arguament collapses. Would you go before a Judge and say " I can prove Covid only killed 500 people" and use excess death figures as your proof, do you think a judge would accept that as evidence or would you be laughed out of court ? The latter Barney, the latter. Just a note regarding your unsubstantiated claim about population growth. Even if it were true it's immaterial unless you are claiming that the population of elderly people grew by "6%" given that it was mainly elderly people who died due to covid. AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 11/08/2021 10:35:28 2369739 Link 0 |
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Exactly, why are the mods allowing so much on here..... I used to come on here to get away from all the covid chatter.... oh well!
captainshamrock (Kerry) - Posts: 23 - 11/08/2021 10:43:02 2369743 Link 1 |
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If Tyrone cannot field a fully fit panel and have to withdraw it would be a damn shame, however should the GAA now put Donegal on notice that as losing provincial finalists that they would be given the chance to represent there province if the provincial champions cannot. Its a horrible idea for a team to get a walkover into the final. boomerang (Mayo) - Posts: 51 - 11/08/2021 10:48:58 2369744 Link 1 |
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If we had no lockdowns or social distancing in that time the death rate would have been much much higher. I can't understand how people can't see this. It's akin to climate change deniers."]. Logic and covid deniers don't tend to go hand in hand. . Let's look at Sweden, the EU country who tried the herd immunity approach when others were locking down. These are there deaths for the past 10 years. . . 2020. . . . . 97,941 2019. . . . . 88,766 2018. . . . . 92,185 2017. . . . . 91,972 2016. . . . . 90,982 2015. . . . . 90,907 2014. . . . . 88,976 2013. . . . . 90,402 2012. . . . . 91,938 2011. . . . . 89,938 Or how about Hungary. The EU country who eased restrictions earliest this year, despite pleas from the EU not to. They have had 3 times as many deaths per capita as Ireland (ROI) has. By keeping death rates only slightly above pre covid levels, its blatantly clear that we have saved 1000s of lives!"]I agree with the principle of your argument insofar as the 1st lockdown in particular was I think very necessary. Likewise the 1st lockdown this year. Social distancing etc will likely be necessary for some years to come. But Sweden, Italy and Hungary, on account of their better health systems, were keeping alive far more elderly and vulnerable citizens than we ever did. This is the main reason their mortality rates were far higher. They had a much higher proportion of their population in these groups to start with. I think the fact of the matter is the disease is an airborne disease which thrives in enclosed spaces. The reason it tends to be better as regards hospitisations and deaths in the summer in Europe is very likely because people are spending more time outdoors where it is easier to keep your distance and reduce the viral load you are subject to. It was the same last summer also. Temperature is irrelevant. There have been very bad outbreaks in places like Brazil and India because of chronic overcrowding in the urban areas in particular. As regards going to matches and sitting outside on what is likely to be a breezy and possibly damp day as most are in our summers the risk should be reduced significantly and there is no good reason only to allow 500 people at grounds that hold 1000s. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16825 - 11/08/2021 10:51:17 2369745 Link 0 |
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Saying that i feel the GAA should delay it until Tyrone are fully fit to play it with a full panel. I guess the only draw back to that is what happens if Kerry get hit with an out break in the meantime and the winner of the other semi final get an out break while waiting on the final again. We could end up in October fairly quickly boomerang (Mayo) - Posts: 51 - 11/08/2021 10:51:57 2369746 Link 1 |
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African Gael, you went to a lot of trouble pulling that 5,000 figure out of an irrelevant comparison to now claim that it means nothing. Which it doesn't because it is not a valid comparison as you now admit. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3688 - 11/08/2021 10:57:53 2369748 Link 1 |
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Donegal? Weren't Monaghan beaten in the Ulster final?
captainshamrock (Kerry) - Posts: 23 - 11/08/2021 11:00:30 2369750 Link 1 |
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I think Monaghan might have something to say about that !
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 11/08/2021 11:03:19 2369754 Link 2 |
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It's the oul' covid "brain fog" Captain.
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 2025 - 11/08/2021 11:10:21 2369757 Link 3 |
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Sorry Monaghan. But same point to be made
boomerang (Mayo) - Posts: 51 - 11/08/2021 11:16:33 2369763 Link 1 |
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Barney, The reason I posted the numbers was to show that "excess death" numbers mean absolutely nothing but you are basing your whole argument around them. Why are you unwilling to produce the only important numbers, a breakdown of the cause of deaths for the relevant years ? That's the only information which matters. Lets take a completely hypothetical situation as an example of why excess death rates should not be used. Joe Bloggs is 85 years old, father time is catching up with him and if Covid never existed he would have died of old age in the winter of 2020. But instead of that he gets covid in April of 2020 and dies on a ventilator all alone as his family look in the window. So even though his death will not appear as "excess" it doesn't take away the fact that he died because of Covid and that's why "excess deaths" should never be used to show how many people died of Covid because they do not tell you the cause. There have been many "Joe Bloggs" who have died before they should have because of covid, some years before their time. I hope that explains things a little better as to why you should not put any weight on "excess deaths". AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 11/08/2021 11:27:03 2369768 Link 0 |
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Play the game a few weeks down the road, no rush suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1764 - 11/08/2021 11:34:45 2369773 Link 4 |