The Dubs aren't going to change their mind on this. The only alternative I can think of is play the 4 provincial championships, then make 'best of' Connacht, Ulster, Munster and Rest of Leinster teams to play in an all Ireland series against Dublin. Amalgamation of 2 counties won't cut it against Dublin, counties won't amalgamate anyway.
offalyfaithful (Offaly) - Posts: 120 - 03/01/2021 00:47:00
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"As the grey unyielding media makes a 4 team geographical region of my town.
Ringa ring a rosie....................................";)
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4518 - 03/01/2021 11:14:40
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Would you rather it continue as is?
ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 873 - 03/01/2021 11:38:33
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Replying To TheUsername: ""As the grey unyielding media makes a 4 team geographical region of my town.
Ringa ring a rosie....................................";)" John Costelloe wanted Dublin to be treated as a province a few years ago and provinces are usually made up of more than one county team.
ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 873 - 03/01/2021 11:53:14
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Not a snowballs chance in hell of Dublin being split, or counties amalgamating. Far better we work for solutions based on those two red lines.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4956 - 03/01/2021 12:36:15
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Replying To ONdeDITCH: "Would you rather it continue as is?" Its just a different name at the top of the wheel at the moment.
I dont think Dublin dominance is as unprecedented or surprising as the reaction is to it. The championship has always been dominated by the few at the expense of the many. The nature of winning breeds resentment and i think you have to accept that, its a skill not inherent to most Dubs as most of us were brought up, with hype, then bust and it breeds an instinctive insecurity that i think the new generation coming behind us dont have, certainly the playing population. But i digress.
This year i think our success, was helped hugely not by our own means, but other counties failures and that might be an uncomfortable truth for some counties, tipped favorites like Tyrone, Kerry, Donegal, Cork, Galway all didn't even earn the right to play the Dubs or even progress from their provinces. It was a year we were their for the taking more then any other with a novice manager, many retirements and much new blood. Im not sure how changing the structures of the game to make it more competitive changes those failures, if anything it argues the case that the championship was the most competitive in years. So was the problem this year Dublin's success or other counties failures? Is that enough for a root and branch of the entire game? Soul searching questions.
Realistically, Dublin and Kerry have dominated the sport for the guts of its history, if we're all being honest and frank, there is a huge cliff in between, it there is strategies to be implemented not to dumb down counties but enable counties outside of, Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal,Tyrone, Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, Tipp and Dublin im all for it. A lot of good going on in those counties and id like to see the individual wisdom be brought to be bare elsewhere. For example, Kerry have innovated in infrastructure and junior football, also their club championship. Mayo are a fundraising and commercial behemoth - punching well above their weight, Dublin have innovated a hybrid approach of school, club, county, innovating with a financial model of a 50/50 split etc etc, there are many examples of innovation that can be communally shared and applied uniquely taking into account a counties circumstances and culture. Id be all for finance following that centrally, but i do think counties have to help themselves to, in terms of raising funds or innovating on models and not just look for handouts, there has to be central help certainly but also self help.
I think their has to be a tiered championship the second tier competition is welcome in my opinion, i love the Leinster Championship, but its a labor of love at this stage, Munster went that way beards ago, all be it the odd anomaly like this year. Personally id amalgamate Leinster and Munster and have the Div 1 & Div 2 playing off against each other and the 3-4 Div teams doing likewise. Id also keep the S8's. I think its to easy for Dublin and Kerry to saunter through provinces and win Al Irelands, the total no of All Irelands won and dominance is evidence of that, we need to keep the pathway tougher for Leinster and Munster counties, its only fair on Connacht and Ulster teams - at a minimum.
Dublin will never be split in my opinion, its a waste of idea space. For so many reasons. Nor would i like to counties amalgamated. Id Dublin were gash tomorrow and went into tier 2, id prefer to tip away there then to amalgamate with i dont know Wexford (unless Matty Forde was still knocking about). So i think its all silly talk really.
Anyway to illustrate my point. the job or work is to correct the following, there is a cliff between Kerry and Dublin that needs to be filled, this isn't new its been around all the history of the game, for me its about closing that cliff, from grass roots up via, sharing of knowledge communally, structures, coaches, funds, culture, innovation, adjustment and eventually county.
No of All Ireland's:
Kerry 37 Dublin 30 Galway 9 Cork 7 Meath 7 Cavan 5 Wexford 5 Down 5 Kildare 4 Tipp 4 Mayo 3 Offaly 3 Louth 3 Tyrone 3 Rossies 2 Donegal 2 Limerick 2 Armagh 1 Derry 1
For me the cliff is from Dublin to Galway, filling in that the job of work of the GAA in my opinion.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4518 - 03/01/2021 12:39:39
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Replying To ONdeDITCH: "John Costelloe wanted Dublin to be treated as a province a few years ago and provinces are usually made up of more than one county team." The Blue Wave? I think the actual quote was to attain funding of a province. Not sure John was the scribe, it had many contributors. But it was in our strategic plan all right.
Was a cracking plan to be fair, i wish all of it was implemented in the time line but we are getting there
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4518 - 03/01/2021 12:46:29
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Replying To arock: "Not a snowballs chance in hell of Dublin being split, or counties amalgamating. Far better we work for solutions based on those two red lines." Do you believe its realistic to provide a competitive AI football championship by continuing with the status quo and working within that? and if you do how do you think that can be attained?
ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 873 - 03/01/2021 12:59:19
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Replying To superbluedub: "Silly thread , It will never happen ." That won't ever happen, mad idea.
MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 421 - 03/01/2021 13:03:52
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Replying To TheUsername: "Its just a different name at the top of the wheel at the moment.
I dont think Dublin dominance is as unprecedented or surprising as the reaction is to it. The championship has always been dominated by the few at the expense of the many. The nature of winning breeds resentment and i think you have to accept that, its a skill not inherent to most Dubs as most of us were brought up, with hype, then bust and it breeds an instinctive insecurity that i think the new generation coming behind us dont have, certainly the playing population. But i digress.
This year i think our success, was helped hugely not by our own means, but other counties failures and that might be an uncomfortable truth for some counties, tipped favorites like Tyrone, Kerry, Donegal, Cork, Galway all didn't even earn the right to play the Dubs or even progress from their provinces. It was a year we were their for the taking more then any other with a novice manager, many retirements and much new blood. Im not sure how changing the structures of the game to make it more competitive changes those failures, if anything it argues the case that the championship was the most competitive in years. So was the problem this year Dublin's success or other counties failures? Is that enough for a root and branch of the entire game? Soul searching questions.
Realistically, Dublin and Kerry have dominated the sport for the guts of its history, if we're all being honest and frank, there is a huge cliff in between, it there is strategies to be implemented not to dumb down counties but enable counties outside of, Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal,Tyrone, Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, Tipp and Dublin im all for it. A lot of good going on in those counties and id like to see the individual wisdom be brought to be bare elsewhere. For example, Kerry have innovated in infrastructure and junior football, also their club championship. Mayo are a fundraising and commercial behemoth - punching well above their weight, Dublin have innovated a hybrid approach of school, club, county, innovating with a financial model of a 50/50 split etc etc, there are many examples of innovation that can be communally shared and applied uniquely taking into account a counties circumstances and culture. Id be all for finance following that centrally, but i do think counties have to help themselves to, in terms of raising funds or innovating on models and not just look for handouts, there has to be central help certainly but also self help.
I think their has to be a tiered championship the second tier competition is welcome in my opinion, i love the Leinster Championship, but its a labor of love at this stage, Munster went that way beards ago, all be it the odd anomaly like this year. Personally id amalgamate Leinster and Munster and have the Div 1 & Div 2 playing off against each other and the 3-4 Div teams doing likewise. Id also keep the S8's. I think its to easy for Dublin and Kerry to saunter through provinces and win Al Irelands, the total no of All Irelands won and dominance is evidence of that, we need to keep the pathway tougher for Leinster and Munster counties, its only fair on Connacht and Ulster teams - at a minimum.
Dublin will never be split in my opinion, its a waste of idea space. For so many reasons. Nor would i like to counties amalgamated. Id Dublin were gash tomorrow and went into tier 2, id prefer to tip away there then to amalgamate with i dont know Wexford (unless Matty Forde was still knocking about). So i think its all silly talk really.
Anyway to illustrate my point. the job or work is to correct the following, there is a cliff between Kerry and Dublin that needs to be filled, this isn't new its been around all the history of the game, for me its about closing that cliff, from grass roots up via, sharing of knowledge communally, structures, coaches, funds, culture, innovation, adjustment and eventually county.
No of All Ireland's:
Kerry 37 Dublin 30 Galway 9 Cork 7 Meath 7 Cavan 5 Wexford 5 Down 5 Kildare 4 Tipp 4 Mayo 3 Offaly 3 Louth 3 Tyrone 3 Rossies 2 Donegal 2 Limerick 2 Armagh 1 Derry 1
For me the cliff is from Dublin to Galway, filling in that the job of work of the GAA in my opinion." I disagree with where you are coming from in relation to Dublin. Dublin's dominance in the current era is completely different to previously when Dublin were very successful in the All Ireland series in the early decades of the competition (Dublin teams had won 14 All Ireland's by 1923). Dublin success in the early decades of the association waned off a lot when country players living in Dublin started traveling home to play more. In reality up till the 1950's Dublin teams were Dublin in name only, they were basically teams of country exile's. (https://amp.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-became-a-football-force-after-the-team-went-only-dubs-need-apply-31536699.html https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/captain-s-log-the-voyage-that-foundered-before-dublin-discovered-route-forward-1.2357113?mode=amp). What Dublin are achieving in the current era is new, saying it has always been this way doesn't really stand up when you realise the above. The question people are asking now is the root of Dublin's current era of success down Dublin being granted a different funding model by the GAA in the noughties, being funded outside of the traditional provincial council model since then and more importantly, as a consequence will this trend continue and make inter county competition a non event. In truth ever year Dublin win again leads to the thought that this is not a once off golden generation but a follow on central GAA policy and if this is the case the GAA will have to do something to keep the inter county game relevent.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1415 - 04/01/2021 00:26:45
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Replying To TheUsername: "Its just a different name at the top of the wheel at the moment.
I dont think Dublin dominance is as unprecedented or surprising as the reaction is to it. The championship has always been dominated by the few at the expense of the many. The nature of winning breeds resentment and i think you have to accept that, its a skill not inherent to most Dubs as most of us were brought up, with hype, then bust and it breeds an instinctive insecurity that i think the new generation coming behind us dont have, certainly the playing population. But i digress.
This year i think our success, was helped hugely not by our own means, but other counties failures and that might be an uncomfortable truth for some counties, tipped favorites like Tyrone, Kerry, Donegal, Cork, Galway all didn't even earn the right to play the Dubs or even progress from their provinces. It was a year we were their for the taking more then any other with a novice manager, many retirements and much new blood. Im not sure how changing the structures of the game to make it more competitive changes those failures, if anything it argues the case that the championship was the most competitive in years. So was the problem this year Dublin's success or other counties failures? Is that enough for a root and branch of the entire game? Soul searching questions.
Realistically, Dublin and Kerry have dominated the sport for the guts of its history, if we're all being honest and frank, there is a huge cliff in between, it there is strategies to be implemented not to dumb down counties but enable counties outside of, Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal,Tyrone, Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, Tipp and Dublin im all for it. A lot of good going on in those counties and id like to see the individual wisdom be brought to be bare elsewhere. For example, Kerry have innovated in infrastructure and junior football, also their club championship. Mayo are a fundraising and commercial behemoth - punching well above their weight, Dublin have innovated a hybrid approach of school, club, county, innovating with a financial model of a 50/50 split etc etc, there are many examples of innovation that can be communally shared and applied uniquely taking into account a counties circumstances and culture. Id be all for finance following that centrally, but i do think counties have to help themselves to, in terms of raising funds or innovating on models and not just look for handouts, there has to be central help certainly but also self help.
I think their has to be a tiered championship the second tier competition is welcome in my opinion, i love the Leinster Championship, but its a labor of love at this stage, Munster went that way beards ago, all be it the odd anomaly like this year. Personally id amalgamate Leinster and Munster and have the Div 1 & Div 2 playing off against each other and the 3-4 Div teams doing likewise. Id also keep the S8's. I think its to easy for Dublin and Kerry to saunter through provinces and win Al Irelands, the total no of All Irelands won and dominance is evidence of that, we need to keep the pathway tougher for Leinster and Munster counties, its only fair on Connacht and Ulster teams - at a minimum.
Dublin will never be split in my opinion, its a waste of idea space. For so many reasons. Nor would i like to counties amalgamated. Id Dublin were gash tomorrow and went into tier 2, id prefer to tip away there then to amalgamate with i dont know Wexford (unless Matty Forde was still knocking about). So i think its all silly talk really.
Anyway to illustrate my point. the job or work is to correct the following, there is a cliff between Kerry and Dublin that needs to be filled, this isn't new its been around all the history of the game, for me its about closing that cliff, from grass roots up via, sharing of knowledge communally, structures, coaches, funds, culture, innovation, adjustment and eventually county.
No of All Ireland's:
Kerry 37 Dublin 30 Galway 9 Cork 7 Meath 7 Cavan 5 Wexford 5 Down 5 Kildare 4 Tipp 4 Mayo 3 Offaly 3 Louth 3 Tyrone 3 Rossies 2 Donegal 2 Limerick 2 Armagh 1 Derry 1
For me the cliff is from Dublin to Galway, filling in that the job of work of the GAA in my opinion." So when theres 3 million people living in Dublin in 10 years time still have one team of 15 yeah?? And countys with a population of 40 or 50 thousand such as longford and carlow field the same one team of 15 ? How can anyone say that adds up and makes any sort of sense?
Irishcelt (Wicklow) - Posts: 149 - 04/01/2021 05:02:10
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Replying To Irishcelt: "So when theres 3 million people living in Dublin in 10 years time still have one team of 15 yeah?? And countys with a population of 40 or 50 thousand such as longford and carlow field the same one team of 15 ? How can anyone say that adds up and makes any sort of sense?" The population argument contradicts the funding one. If you say Dublin has a population of 3 million people, then you cant have a problem with development funding going toward that. If you have a problem with development funding you have to accept a playing population as per registered players at 39k - far from 3 mill.
Dublin have the highest no or registered players of course, 39k- i think quite frailly that is poor and the effectiveness of GDF needs to be looked at. But its not the mass population advantage that hyperbole like your post suggests, Cork for example have 33k. Dublins playing population is actually quite poor when you think about a population of 3 mill and 39k playing.
I think if Dublin had a playing population of 100k or even 60k then there would be a stronger argument for splitting, but i dont see a compelling argument based on population as to why you would split Dublin and not Cork. Overall population is a rude metric to reflect those actually involved in games, for example Kerry have a population of about 140k, yet have a wonderful penetration % of that population involved in games, they really are incredible and not hard to see why they have been successful.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4518 - 04/01/2021 10:18:16
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Replying To bdbuddah: "I disagree with where you are coming from in relation to Dublin. Dublin's dominance in the current era is completely different to previously when Dublin were very successful in the All Ireland series in the early decades of the competition (Dublin teams had won 14 All Ireland's by 1923). Dublin success in the early decades of the association waned off a lot when country players living in Dublin started traveling home to play more. In reality up till the 1950's Dublin teams were Dublin in name only, they were basically teams of country exile's. (https://amp.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-became-a-football-force-after-the-team-went-only-dubs-need-apply-31536699.html https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/captain-s-log-the-voyage-that-foundered-before-dublin-discovered-route-forward-1.2357113?mode=amp). What Dublin are achieving in the current era is new, saying it has always been this way doesn't really stand up when you realise the above. The question people are asking now is the root of Dublin's current era of success down Dublin being granted a different funding model by the GAA in the noughties, being funded outside of the traditional provincial council model since then and more importantly, as a consequence will this trend continue and make inter county competition a non event. In truth ever year Dublin win again leads to the thought that this is not a once off golden generation but a follow on central GAA policy and if this is the case the GAA will have to do something to keep the inter county game relevent." I think that is fair, the roots of the game in Dublin come from economic migrants from the country, i think that is something we can be proud of, its a part of Dublin, even today, that diversity and embracing of those who want to make a home here, in fact i think its one of the reasons we get as much GDF as we do.
I think from the 50s on Dublin became, more intrinsically Dublin with lads primarily from the county playing, Heffo and the like of players - dar ei mention our great Meath export Snitchy - whos son had great success with Meath, were indictive of the change. Again when Heffo became manager, their was an unspoken rule of Dublin for the Dubs etc. That was enabling in the 70s as it was depleting in the 80's, 90s, despite a couple of wins. For me their was huge politics in the game in Dublin in the late 90s and 00's. But you know what Dublin were always a sleeping giant, even when we were getting stuffed in the back of my head i always knew if we got the game right in Dublin we could be untouchable and so it has become. But i wouldn't be dismissive of our history and tradition, im quite proud of it, it encompass some great servants, players and days - its all a part of what makes us who are and Dublin GAA.
Besides i think most of east Leinsters success could be attributed to migration, would Meath have won what they did in the game without the land commission etc and the O Rourkes of this world.
I think its really good to ask the question on finances, ive looked into a lot, id acknowledge a lot of advantages, i don think Dublin are funded anything centrally over what they should be - pound for pound i think they get less pro rata then most per head of population. Im pretty comfortable with the debate. Despite thinking its a bit irrelevant. Central funding or not Dublin are a commercial behemoth, i wouldn't even be to stressed if it was cut, but i think it would take away from the integrity of the competition, dumbing down teams because they are too good. id acknowledge Croke Park as an advantage certainly.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4518 - 04/01/2021 10:35:18
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Replying To TheUsername: "I think that is fair, the roots of the game in Dublin come from economic migrants from the country, i think that is something we can be proud of, its a part of Dublin, even today, that diversity and embracing of those who want to make a home here, in fact i think its one of the reasons we get as much GDF as we do.
I think from the 50s on Dublin became, more intrinsically Dublin with lads primarily from the county playing, Heffo and the like of players - dar ei mention our great Meath export Snitchy - whos son had great success with Meath, were indictive of the change. Again when Heffo became manager, their was an unspoken rule of Dublin for the Dubs etc. That was enabling in the 70s as it was depleting in the 80's, 90s, despite a couple of wins. For me their was huge politics in the game in Dublin in the late 90s and 00's. But you know what Dublin were always a sleeping giant, even when we were getting stuffed in the back of my head i always knew if we got the game right in Dublin we could be untouchable and so it has become. But i wouldn't be dismissive of our history and tradition, im quite proud of it, it encompass some great servants, players and days - its all a part of what makes us who are and Dublin GAA.
Besides i think most of east Leinsters success could be attributed to migration, would Meath have won what they did in the game without the land commission etc and the O Rourkes of this world.
I think its really good to ask the question on finances, ive looked into a lot, id acknowledge a lot of advantages, i don think Dublin are funded anything centrally over what they should be - pound for pound i think they get less pro rata then most per head of population. Im pretty comfortable with the debate. Despite thinking its a bit irrelevant. Central funding or not Dublin are a commercial behemoth, i wouldn't even be to stressed if it was cut, but i think it would take away from the integrity of the competition, dumbing down teams because they are too good. id acknowledge Croke Park as an advantage certainly." Many land commission farmers were great football supporters for Meath county and club teams. The land commission played a part but generally it is over stated when talking about being the starting point of Meath football. Sons of land commission farmers (the players themselves were Meath men who grew up in Meath) made a big impact on Sean Boylan great teams in the 1980's. But Meath had strong teams and great players well before Sean Boylan's time. Meath had some great teams in the 1940's/ 1950's and 1960's. What played the biggest part in originally getting Meath football going was some clerics in Meath who were mad into football, Fr. Packie Tully was a great manager of the first great intercounty Meath football team and Fr. McManus who, whatever parish he went to got the local club team to get very strong. Regarding issues around Dublin's funding. I find it a contradiction hearing people saying Dublin were right to be asked to be treated as a special case for GAA funding based in their population (rather than playing numbers) in the noughties but if one casualty of this ends up being a tenable intercounty competition we will all just have to grin and bear it as we can not dare contemplate Dublin county can not be split up for GAA purposes the way it already has been split into new counties for local government administration since the 1990's. Remember when the GAA was formed Dublin represented 8% of the population of the island of Ireland, now it represents 20% of the population of Ireland. I would also like to know how much has Dublin participation in the GAA actually grown, I get the feeling it has grown a lot but read on here saying it hasn't. If it hasn't grown much with over 15 years of investment than the funding is unfair as this means per player there is much more money invested in Dublin GAA players. If participation has grown a lot there is a stronger case for the funding model but also a stronger case to split Dublin into their component local government counties.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1415 - 04/01/2021 12:28:32
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The following newspaper articles are worth a read in the context of this debate:-
19 years ago in the Irish times ...Splitting Dublin and amalgamated (merged teams).
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/committee-recommend-splitting-dublin-in-two-1.410960 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Irish News sept 2019:-
https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2019/09/10/news/kicking-out-amalgamating-counties-as-important-as-splitting-others-1707889/
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John Fogarty The Examiner a few weeks ago:-
https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40177452.html
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ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 873 - 04/01/2021 12:34:15
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Many land commission farmers were great football supporters for Meath county and club teams. The land commission played a part but generally it is over stated when talking about being the starting point of Meath football. Sons of land commission farmers (the players themselves were Meath men who grew up in Meath) made a big impact on Sean Boylan great teams in the 1980's. But Meath had strong teams and great players well before Sean Boylan's time. Meath had some great teams in the 1940's/ 1950's and 1960's. What played the biggest part in originally getting Meath football going was some clerics in Meath who were mad into football, Fr. Packie Tully was a great manager of the first great intercounty Meath football team and Fr. McManus who, whatever parish he went to got the local club team to get very strong. Regarding issues around Dublin's funding. I find it a contradiction hearing people saying Dublin were right to be asked to be treated as a special case for GAA funding based in their population (rather than playing numbers) in the noughties but if one casualty of this ends up being a tenable intercounty competition we will all just have to grin and bear it as we can not dare contemplate Dublin county can not be split up for GAA purposes the way it already has been split into new counties for local government administration since the 1990's. Remember when the GAA was formed Dublin represented 8% of the population of the island of Ireland, now it represents 20% of the population of Ireland. I would also like to know how much has Dublin participation in the GAA actually grown, I get the feeling it has grown a lot but read on here saying it hasn't. If it hasn't grown much with over 15 years of investment than the funding is unfair as this means per player there is much more money invested in Dublin GAA players. If participation has grown a lot there is a stronger case for the funding model but also a stronger case to split Dublin into their component local government counties." I think we can both agree that migration had a positive impact on both Meath and Dublin, not wholly but certainly positively impacted on success, compared to the western seaboard counties. its likely this will remain the case in the coming years as both populations continue to grow.
For me, this is where the issue sometimes gets confused talking about GDF. The points you make are based on the assumption that GFF somehow make their way to County Senior Footballers or Senior Club players they dont, the funding stick used to beat Dublin is the accepted 39k registered players, its probably not a fair or current figure - its Shane Mangans from 2016, but its the most wildly reported.
So for me ultimately you have a choice of what you want to believe in the debate. You can believe, Dublin population is the millions and that unfair and need to be split, or you can look at playing numbers and see its 39k and thats pretty comparable to say Cork and other big population centers.
The unpalatable thing really for those who want Dublin split is a 30k registered player no - would in my opinion not dictate a split. Yet an untapped playing population goes begging in Dublin, of potentially millions, with the youngest people in the county here. Should the GAA not try and cultivate that - as that is where GDF goes - schools and getting kids into clubs.
So in truth Dublin have 39k registered players to pick from. But a potential population of millions that can be attracted to games and that is the aim of GDF. The decision for the GAA is to leave that to go begging. Im becoming more relaxed about that funding as its small fry in our overall income and am confident we can innovate to raise more if we had to and if there is a will to handicapt teams away from communal funding i think it calls into question the integrity of who ever where to win after us. Certainly i think id point to it and leveraged.
I actually think we are just the vangaurd in this debate, the same will happen with other counties in the years ahead, certainly Kildare and Meath when they finally get their acts together and the population continue to swell.
I know the point you are making on political administration, but i believe we aren't the only county that has split local authority areas, i dont really see what that has to do with GAA participations rates myself, but it seems to be some kind of hobby horse.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4518 - 04/01/2021 13:19:22
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Replying To TheUsername: "Its just a different name at the top of the wheel at the moment.
I dont think Dublin dominance is as unprecedented or surprising as the reaction is to it. The championship has always been dominated by the few at the expense of the many. The nature of winning breeds resentment and i think you have to accept that, its a skill not inherent to most Dubs as most of us were brought up, with hype, then bust and it breeds an instinctive insecurity that i think the new generation coming behind us dont have, certainly the playing population. But i digress.
This year i think our success, was helped hugely not by our own means, but other counties failures and that might be an uncomfortable truth for some counties, tipped favorites like Tyrone, Kerry, Donegal, Cork, Galway all didn't even earn the right to play the Dubs or even progress from their provinces. It was a year we were their for the taking more then any other with a novice manager, many retirements and much new blood. Im not sure how changing the structures of the game to make it more competitive changes those failures, if anything it argues the case that the championship was the most competitive in years. So was the problem this year Dublin's success or other counties failures? Is that enough for a root and branch of the entire game? Soul searching questions.
Realistically, Dublin and Kerry have dominated the sport for the guts of its history, if we're all being honest and frank, there is a huge cliff in between, it there is strategies to be implemented not to dumb down counties but enable counties outside of, Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal,Tyrone, Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, Tipp and Dublin im all for it. A lot of good going on in those counties and id like to see the individual wisdom be brought to be bare elsewhere. For example, Kerry have innovated in infrastructure and junior football, also their club championship. Mayo are a fundraising and commercial behemoth - punching well above their weight, Dublin have innovated a hybrid approach of school, club, county, innovating with a financial model of a 50/50 split etc etc, there are many examples of innovation that can be communally shared and applied uniquely taking into account a counties circumstances and culture. Id be all for finance following that centrally, but i do think counties have to help themselves to, in terms of raising funds or innovating on models and not just look for handouts, there has to be central help certainly but also self help.
I think their has to be a tiered championship the second tier competition is welcome in my opinion, i love the Leinster Championship, but its a labor of love at this stage, Munster went that way beards ago, all be it the odd anomaly like this year. Personally id amalgamate Leinster and Munster and have the Div 1 & Div 2 playing off against each other and the 3-4 Div teams doing likewise. Id also keep the S8's. I think its to easy for Dublin and Kerry to saunter through provinces and win Al Irelands, the total no of All Irelands won and dominance is evidence of that, we need to keep the pathway tougher for Leinster and Munster counties, its only fair on Connacht and Ulster teams - at a minimum.
Dublin will never be split in my opinion, its a waste of idea space. For so many reasons. Nor would i like to counties amalgamated. Id Dublin were gash tomorrow and went into tier 2, id prefer to tip away there then to amalgamate with i dont know Wexford (unless Matty Forde was still knocking about). So i think its all silly talk really.
Anyway to illustrate my point. the job or work is to correct the following, there is a cliff between Kerry and Dublin that needs to be filled, this isn't new its been around all the history of the game, for me its about closing that cliff, from grass roots up via, sharing of knowledge communally, structures, coaches, funds, culture, innovation, adjustment and eventually county.
No of All Ireland's:
Kerry 37 Dublin 30 Galway 9 Cork 7 Meath 7 Cavan 5 Wexford 5 Down 5 Kildare 4 Tipp 4 Mayo 3 Offaly 3 Louth 3 Tyrone 3 Rossies 2 Donegal 2 Limerick 2 Armagh 1 Derry 1
For me the cliff is from Dublin to Galway, filling in that the job of work of the GAA in my opinion." With respect username. You mention that for many reasons Dublin should not be split but you failed to mention any of these reasons! Perhaps there are no good reasons why Dublin should not be split. With four teams in Dublin it would offer tremendous opportunity to so many more players to play football at an elite level representing their county teams. With panels of around 30 players this would be a real boost to club players in Dublin. It would be interesting to know what the players representative bodies feel about this and also amalgamated teams offering more players to play at an elite and competitive level.
ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 873 - 04/01/2021 14:22:18
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Replying To ONdeDITCH: "With respect username. You mention that for many reasons Dublin should not be split but you failed to mention any of these reasons! Perhaps there are no good reasons why Dublin should not be split. With four teams in Dublin it would offer tremendous opportunity to so many more players to play football at an elite level representing their county teams. With panels of around 30 players this would be a real boost to club players in Dublin. It would be interesting to know what the players representative bodies feel about this and also amalgamated teams offering more players to play at an elite and competitive level." Isn't that true of any county though - i mean all those same opportunities are there for other counties if they have four representative teams in their county.
You'd be thinking of lads like Connor Cox and lads representing at Junior All Ireland level. Dublin i don't think field a Junior team this weather.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4518 - 04/01/2021 14:43:47
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Replying To TheUsername: "The population argument contradicts the funding one. If you say Dublin has a population of 3 million people, then you cant have a problem with development funding going toward that. If you have a problem with development funding you have to accept a playing population as per registered players at 39k - far from 3 mill.
Dublin have the highest no or registered players of course, 39k- i think quite frailly that is poor and the effectiveness of GDF needs to be looked at. But its not the mass population advantage that hyperbole like your post suggests, Cork for example have 33k. Dublins playing population is actually quite poor when you think about a population of 3 mill and 39k playing.
I think if Dublin had a playing population of 100k or even 60k then there would be a stronger argument for splitting, but i dont see a compelling argument based on population as to why you would split Dublin and not Cork. Overall population is a rude metric to reflect those actually involved in games, for example Kerry have a population of about 140k, yet have a wonderful penetration % of that population involved in games, they really are incredible and not hard to see why they have been successful." Where are the above stats coming from? Can you post a list of all the counties just out of interest. Are the figures combined football and hurling? The majority of Cork's 33k would be solely hurling if so. It would be interesting to see solely football figures to compare - but this may not be possible.
hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 449 - 04/01/2021 15:07:38
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Happy new year folks, still banging on about splitting Dublin eh! Careful what you wish for, no Dublin, no interest, no money!
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8812 - 04/01/2021 15:09:14
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