Meath Forum

Meath V Dublin

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Replying To Borderroyal:  "Mcmahon can play ball.showed that again the gooch.mccoy big athletic lad not man marker taken to cleaners again kerry to.gets loads chances but still same failings.have to question why that happens.selectors have to get blame here as well.if they have a say on it.?.how there not shouting about goalie scenario makes me think there soft."
Is that a riddle? Seen easier crosswords!

GenderNeutral (Meath) - Posts: 112 - 19/10/2020 22:52:56    2299436

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Replying To brian:  "Leitrim, its not negative, I was trying to give an honest assessment. Sorry if that doesn't match your viewpoint but I'm entitled to have an opinion without it being run down.

Goalkeeper : Issues have been clear for years. Andy has done nothing to remedy the situation. The issues have been well discussed. But continuing with Brennan or Colgan is giving a team a 3-4 score head start and is killing us. As you said how many close games have we been in this year and we can almost track the difference to scores given away by our keeper.

Andy has been plain pig ignorant with this. He gave Berlingham and Hannigan one game in the O'Byrne cup and discarded them, replacing them with a 37 year old and a former forward who hadn't played in goals since he was 16. He gave Yorke a half v Tyrone and hauled him off and replaced him with an inside forward. The issue and problems are of his own creation and until he has the bottle to solve them its going to cost us 3 to 6 points a game. We're not good enough to over turn that against a top 8 team. Beakey and McDermott have been in and out and never got much of a chance.

Kickout Strategy : Or lack of one. Kick it short and that invites teams onto us. They push up en masse. It's extremly difficult to get out of your defence then as teams are higher up the pitch and have numbers on you. Invariably teams are turned over and closer to goal. Kicking it longer to Devine or another half forward as you say relieves that pressure and if needed we can get numbers back and stop a counter. Unfortunately brennan can't kick the ball that far and you're further hamstringing the team. No having a "fetching midfielder" is again an issue that Andy hasn't addressed, Adam Flanagan was an option but didn't offer much else so seems to be gone.

The definition of stupidity is trying to do the same thing over and over and expecting different results. That's what Andy has done for 4 years with regards to his goalkeepers.

Losses : Yes we've been close to plenty of teams but on Saturday Dublin were in second gear and had us at arms length, Kerry, Mayo and Donegal the same. When push came to shove last summer and during the league, those same teams also swatted us like flies. As a meath man I grew up watching us never accepting defeat, and teams knew even when they had the final nail in the coffin there was still a chance we'd come back. I don't settle for moral victories they mean nothing.

We're not getting there until we get even one victory over a top 8 team of which we're not one. Yes they could go out and win this weekend and it would be a good achievement but Monaghan haven't half the playing numbers or population we have and they've been a top 8 team for close to 15 years if not more. We aren't at that level... yet"
"The definition of stupidity is trying to do the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

Em...Not so sure that's entirely accurate!!!

GenderNeutral (Meath) - Posts: 112 - 19/10/2020 22:58:21    2299441

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Replying To GenderNeutral:  "Is that a riddle? Seen easier crosswords!"
Where are ya getting hard to understand.

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 20/10/2020 09:54:32    2299480

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Replying To Borderroyal:  "Where are ya getting hard to understand."
The English Language/grammer bit

Irish_downunder (Meath) - Posts: 633 - 20/10/2020 11:35:45    2299523

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Dunno does anyone know but whats the Ryan brothers? Injured? Unavailable? Dropped?

brian (Meath) - Posts: 1955 - 20/10/2020 12:45:04    2299560

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Replying To Borderroyal:  "Mcmahon can play ball.showed that again the gooch.mccoy big athletic lad not man marker taken to cleaners again kerry to.gets loads chances but still same failings.have to question why that happens.selectors have to get blame here as well.if they have a say on it.?.how there not shouting about goalie scenario makes me think there soft."
Agreed, just don't see what he offers if he's not a good man marker or defender as he's not competent enough in my opinion with ball in hand. His clubman Cathal Finn for eg is better in both facets.

I've great admiration for McCoy though as he didn't play underage with Meath so fair dues to him for making most of his talent and getting his chance late in the day.

Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1320 - 20/10/2020 13:03:38    2299567

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Replying To Irish_downunder:  "The English Language/grammer bit"
It's not a language test lads, the post was clear enough.

Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1320 - 20/10/2020 13:13:22    2299568

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Replying To Crinigan:  "It's not a language test lads, the post was clear enough."
Not that I particularly care but it wasn't clear.

trim1 (Meath) - Posts: 162 - 20/10/2020 14:07:40    2299609

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Too much of a focus being put on our kickout issues over the past. Too many people expecting us to have a Cluxton type keeper in goals. Short kickouts should be a no-go in my opinion, launch it out to one of the midfielders, let them fight for it. They can win the mark. If they don't win the ball dive on the breaking ball. Be determined. Football is simple lads

LoyalRoyal66 (Meath) - Posts: 83 - 20/10/2020 15:27:59    2299646

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Replying To Irish_downunder:  "The English Language/grammer bit"
Ok i was saying Philly mcmahon having been comparing mcoy to him can play ball as well as been a man marker.he marked the gooch and scored one if not 2 points doin this.
I also said that he seems to get a lot of game time but in my mind he not up to it.he marked sean oshea in league against kerry.got a roasting there to.
I also said on the goalie issue that selectors have to be able to see that kickouts are a issue for long time now.have they no say in the matter or they just yes men.
Hopefully this is good enuf grammar for ya.

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 20/10/2020 17:43:59    2299678

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Replying To LoyalRoyal66:  "Too much of a focus being put on our kickout issues over the past. Too many people expecting us to have a Cluxton type keeper in goals. Short kickouts should be a no-go in my opinion, launch it out to one of the midfielders, let them fight for it. They can win the mark. If they don't win the ball dive on the breaking ball. Be determined. Football is simple lads"
Jasus lad the goalie in modern game most important player on team.have to have at least.couple of strategic kickouts just for if we are in trouble winning ball at midfield.in these instances its vital for setting up a score or taken the momentum from opposition.our midfield not really known for high fielding, good footballers but not in the tallest midfielder bracket.
How we are still at this 3 years on baffles me.

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 20/10/2020 18:34:07    2299685

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Replying To Borderroyal:  "Jasus lad the goalie in modern game most important player on team.have to have at least.couple of strategic kickouts just for if we are in trouble winning ball at midfield.in these instances its vital for setting up a score or taken the momentum from opposition.our midfield not really known for high fielding, good footballers but not in the tallest midfielder bracket.
How we are still at this 3 years on baffles me."
There's too much risk going short, same way I'm not a fan of this handpassing in the full back line. Ball should be kicked up the field, if the man doesn't win it that's his problem.

LoyalRoyal66 (Meath) - Posts: 83 - 20/10/2020 19:25:29    2299704

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Replying To LoyalRoyal66:  "There's too much risk going short, same way I'm not a fan of this handpassing in the full back line. Ball should be kicked up the field, if the man doesn't win it that's his problem."
Every team in ireland can go short but we have to lump it out the field.my god.

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 20/10/2020 21:27:21    2299746

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Replying To LoyalRoyal66:  "There's too much risk going short, same way I'm not a fan of this handpassing in the full back line. Ball should be kicked up the field, if the man doesn't win it that's his problem."
No point kicking up the field when there is nobody up there. You are mistaking current tactics in gaelic football with those of 15/20 years ago. It isn't 15 players spread out on the pitch anymore. Apart from a GK, the full back and maybe a full forward, nobody has a fixed position. Its like most players are wing backs now - they are up and down and everywhere. The team defends as a unit and attacks as a unit - a lot of other sports like soccer are like this now, following examples of basketball and handball (Olympic).

For my money when you can go short, you have to do it. Guarantees possession and you can build from there and try and break the lines, depending on where the opposition press starts. Looks at Man City and Arsenal, playing out from the back (they even changed rules of soccer to allow passes from goalkicks to be received in the box, just to allow this tactical evolution) and then trying to break through the press as quickly as possible which leaves you attacking their box in superior numbers, IF you break through that is of course. If the opposition don't press and sit back with 15 in their own half, then you have to play around them like the Dubs do....see how the Dubs put players on both wings literally touching the sideline chalk . Man City with Mahrez and Sterling do exactly the same in soccer. Guaranteed width to allow you to quickly change sides of the position and create a 2 v 1 overload - Dublin have scored loads of goals like this.

Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1320 - 21/10/2020 10:50:57    2299835

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Wow, someone who knows what they are talking about. Unusual on here. Good point. Lads seem to think managing a senor intercounty team is easy.

Ed2010 (Meath) - Posts: 93 - 21/10/2020 12:08:02    2299876

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Replying To LoyalRoyal66:  "There's too much risk going short, same way I'm not a fan of this handpassing in the full back line. Ball should be kicked up the field, if the man doesn't win it that's his problem."
I haven't played in 13 years. But back then I was coached by colm Nally at one stage. and even back then we where told never to kick the ball out of zone 1 . which is your defence. There is 3 zones. Zone 1 denfesne zone 2 midfield and zone 3 forwards. there was a stat at time and it was something 60% of balls kicked out of zone 1 ends up with losing possession. So you and pass the ball to zone zone then set up your attack. This is very very basic stuff.

bobkarlgees (Meath) - Posts: 1263 - 21/10/2020 21:11:59    2300083

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Replying To bobkarlgees:  "I haven't played in 13 years. But back then I was coached by colm Nally at one stage. and even back then we where told never to kick the ball out of zone 1 . which is your defence. There is 3 zones. Zone 1 denfesne zone 2 midfield and zone 3 forwards. there was a stat at time and it was something 60% of balls kicked out of zone 1 ends up with losing possession. So you and pass the ball to zone zone then set up your attack. This is very very basic stuff."
Ok nally now is part of current management and we are kicking ball outfield??????

Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 22/10/2020 00:01:41    2300115

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Replying To bobkarlgees:  "I haven't played in 13 years. But back then I was coached by colm Nally at one stage. and even back then we where told never to kick the ball out of zone 1 . which is your defence. There is 3 zones. Zone 1 denfesne zone 2 midfield and zone 3 forwards. there was a stat at time and it was something 60% of balls kicked out of zone 1 ends up with losing possession. So you and pass the ball to zone zone then set up your attack. This is very very basic stuff."
I heard him say at a coaching session a few years ago that 60% of kicked passes are successful and 95% of hand passes successful that's why so many coaches advocate a hand passing game. The longer the kick, the higher the chance of losing possession.

round_ball_99 (Meath) - Posts: 19 - 22/10/2020 08:55:09    2300133

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It is interesting reading all the posts from 'experts'!! It appears that the goal keeper is the most important player by some. Can the keeper win his own kick out. The keeper is the obvious one to blame if a goal is conceded - we have not yet got around to blame the keeper for missed opportunities at the other end of the pitch. Short kick outs and long kick outs work when you have outfield players good enough to win possession it is a combination of the kick and the ability to win the outfield possession. For short kick outs you need defenders moving around -not static as occurs frequently. The game is now been analysed to death although it is interesting to note that the games have become easier on the eye to watch of late. We have borrowed many of the negative aspects from soccer unfortunately. Modern game and stats is now the buzz word with many.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 22/10/2020 09:19:25    2300134

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Replying To browncows:  "It is interesting reading all the posts from 'experts'!! It appears that the goal keeper is the most important player by some. Can the keeper win his own kick out. The keeper is the obvious one to blame if a goal is conceded - we have not yet got around to blame the keeper for missed opportunities at the other end of the pitch. Short kick outs and long kick outs work when you have outfield players good enough to win possession it is a combination of the kick and the ability to win the outfield possession. For short kick outs you need defenders moving around -not static as occurs frequently. The game is now been analysed to death although it is interesting to note that the games have become easier on the eye to watch of late. We have borrowed many of the negative aspects from soccer unfortunately. Modern game and stats is now the buzz word with many."
Fair point there brown cows. I wouldn't overly look at stats myself. If something doesn't pass the eye test then stats won't change my opinion on it. As you say a keeper can't field the ball for the player on the other end or stick it over the bar but a keeper does need to be intelligent enough to give his players a better than average chance of winning the ball and doing something with it.

For too long i've watched our backs especially corner and wing backs and midfield and wing forwards being static and not giving the keeper a chance or option. So the keeper is then in a hurry and rush to get the ball out and when that happens mistakes happen. I saw it repeatedly last summer where Colgan and Brennan danced across the 21 looking for an option and nothing was presented, them throwing their hands up in the air in frustration and they had to kick it under pressure. That is a fault of management that no system or patterns are in place to get the ball away. It's clear as day its not been worked on. For a division 1 team that's criminal.

Every team has maybe 20-30 kick outs a game and to not have any system in place is a glaring weakness and reflects terribly on the management. This is your only time in the game where you should have an advantage in terms of knowing what you're going to do but we don't seem to have an idea at all. I've seen a few lads mention Colm Nally and his approach, if he's so great why hasn't that aspect of our game improved since he's been involved. I'd say its even been worse in the last two years.

Every team we've played in our last 10 games knows the problem in advance and pushes up onto our defenders and clogs up the space. When that happens you need your half forwards to give you an out and they're not doing so. How often did we see Cluxton find Paul Flynn and laterly Howard and Scully in wide open space. They are then straight into opposing defences. Devine is a huge man and should be a primary target but doesn't seem able to win any balls.

When someone does make a break more often than not they're too close to the sideline when making the break which increases the pressure on a keeper the place an accurate kick into their hands. There needs to be a better way of organising when and where players make breaks to and where they're ultimately getting a ball. This isn't happening and teams have us scouted enough to know it.

The fact that neither Brennan specifically (he barely gets it passed the 45) and Colgan can't find our half forwards means teams don't have to worry about us. Result is teams will take more pot shots knowing they've a better than average chance of getting the ball back and restarting an attack.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 1955 - 22/10/2020 12:54:10    2300193

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