pplocal
I don't know where this idea that a cynical foul won't result in a card has come from but it's entirely wrong. Cynical fouls often result in a card being shown, be that yellow or red. Mayo got away with it in the semi and being able to foul without facing the consequences was a key reason why they beat Dublin. Within ten minutes of the start of the final it was obvious that Deegan wasn't going to be so lenient and Mayo were unable to replicate their tactic of fouling at every available opportunity. I would agree that they can't be compared to Tyrone in their pomp, Mayo have reached a whole new level in terms of cynicism and gamesmanship

I dont know either. Has someone said that on this forum?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/09/2012 13:40:24    1273149

Bluewave
Dublin did not play like that against Laois fact.

Are blind denials supposed to mean something?
Mayo did not play that way against Dublin fact.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/09/2012 13:46:46    1273157

Are you joking? You just said it in your last post. I'll quote it and even highlight the relevant part to avoid confusion

'Maybe we have differing views on cynical play, but the most cynical systematic play I can think of is low intensity fouls out around the halfway line, which kill attacks and dont result in cards'

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 26/09/2012 13:57:50    1273168

clondalkindub
County: Dublin
Posts: 2813

1271118 Lads I just want to say hard luck to Mayo they gave it all they had and were dealt a massive blow with the lost of Andy Moran , my heart goes out to all Mayo people no one deserves an All Ireland more than yous. I hope to God yous come back and win one some day. Your great people and keep the heads up . Jaysus I'm sick for them.

Well said Clondalkindub. I think everybody really feels for the Mayo fans.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 26/09/2012 13:57:53    1273169

pplocal
I don't know where this idea that a cynical foul won't result in a card has come from but it's entirely wrong.

'Maybe we have differing views on cynical play, but the most cynical systematic play I can think of is low intensity fouls out around the halfway line, which kill attacks and dont result in cards'


Where does it say that a cynical tackle wont result in a card? Could you underline that part please? Your whole point is built on it after all so it not being there kind of undermines everything you have said on the subject.


What is does say is the most cynical play is fouls out the field that dont result in cards. i.e. its costs the team absolutely nothing to do it, and stops the other team dead. Surely fouling a guy outside the scoring zone in such a way that you wont get a card and can get back behind the ball before they can do anything with it, is far more cynical than a clumsy obvious yellow card tackle bang in front of the posts? The first instance has cost you nothing and cost the opposition a chance of a score, the second cost a yellow card and a point.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/09/2012 14:31:21    1273197

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 4834


What is does say is the most cynical play is fouls out the field that dont result in cards. i.e. its costs the team absolutely nothing to do it, and stops the other team dead. Surely fouling a guy outside the scoring zone in such a way that you wont get a card and can get back behind the ball before they can do anything with it, is far more cynical than a clumsy obvious yellow card tackle bang in front of the posts? The first instance has cost you nothing and cost the opposition a chance of a score, the second cost a yellow card and a point.


I understand the point you are making but I would argue that what defines a cynical foul is more the motivation behind it and not so much how well it is done.
Just because the person carrying out the foul wasn't able to execute it properly doesn't make any the less cynical.
The example you use of a clumsy obvious yellow in front of the posts is not in my view cynical unless the attacker as through for a goal. It all depends on the context.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 26/09/2012 14:41:35    1273211

Lads it's obvious that themaster is right and everyone else is wrong.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 26/09/2012 14:50:10    1273228

MuckrossHead
I understand the point you are making but I would argue that what defines a cynical foul is more the motivation behind it and not so much how well it is done.
Just because the person carrying out the foul wasn't able to execute it properly doesn't make any the less cynical.The example you use of a clumsy obvious yellow in front of the posts is not in my view cynical unless the attacker as through for a goal. It all depends on the context.

Yes I agree with that. However does that poor execution mean that the cynical system in place is far less polished/practiced? Surely the most cynical team is the team that you barely notice doing it? The team that gives away 27 fouls, most of which miles from goal, and only gets 1 booking, compared to the team who make 21 fouls, many of which are scoreable and pick up 5 yellow cards? Again when you talk about being in on goal, there is the argument that in the first instace the same goal chance was killed, without furore, out the field, and because the defenders were then able to retreat, the goal chance never materialised. The attitude of stop everything out the field is in my opinion a more cynical attitude than dont let them in for a goal. As regards the context, the one I was referring to was keegan on mchugh about 30 yards out, which I had been informed was really cynical (thought it was a foolish one myself), and the opposite was any time mayo won a kickout in the middle and donegal had also committed men to win it also. By committing men they had left spaces, so then a low-impact foul stops mayo from capitising on this, without gaining a card. For my money, there is far more thought gone into the 2nd instance than the first. Again, I point out, im not complaining about it just making points about some of the, what I consider, poorly formed views on the subject.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/09/2012 15:02:06    1273237

The subject is too vague to be able to articulate. This is the way I see it though. The game was about even in terms of fouls. All teams do it, it is not up to the players to blow the whistle on themselves, rather the referee. \if a player doesnt get out of the way of the ball, it is move forward as was the case on sunday. I didnt think that it was a dirty game.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3853 - 26/09/2012 15:15:13    1273251

This is simply getting bizarre now. It was strange enough that you blindly ignored the cynicism and gamesmanship that Mayo employed against Dublin but now you are making statements and, when asked about them, point blank deny having said it despite the fact it's there in black and white. It's simply impossible to have a discussion with a man who will deny the glaring facts that are staring him in the face

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 26/09/2012 15:18:09    1273254

pplocal
This is simply getting bizarre now. It was strange enough that you blindly ignored the cynicism and gamesmanship that Mayo employed against Dublin but now you are making statements and, when asked about them, point blank deny having said it despite the fact it's there in black and white. It's simply impossible to have a discussion with a man who will deny the glaring facts that are staring him in the face

What is so bizarre about it? You claimed that I said cynical fouls dont ever get punished by yellow cards. I clearly never said this at all and have outlined what I actually did say already, quoting the exact words and asking you to point out where it was that I had said what you claimed I had. You chose not to follow it up.

You have repeated this in the above by saying that I 'blindly ignored' the cynicism in the mayo-dublin match when what I in fact said was dublin used the same tactics against laois and that every mayo player that went down, supposedly faking injury was substituted either instantly or in the next few minutes, which would indicate that there was far less gamesmanship than there was being claimed. Where is these blind denials? Did I ay nobody went down with injury? Did I say mayo didnt stop dublin going for goals?

So no in fact it isnt there in black and white. The only thing that is there is the evidence of yourself making claims that I said one thing, when in fact I said something different. In all honesty, if that is the case then that is a pretty pathetic thing to engage in, or maybe you just struggle to comprehend the language I dont know. Maybe you could enlighten us?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/09/2012 17:11:10    1273344

Yes.. just a few of the 8 subs that were used. ;)

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 26/09/2012 17:14:28    1273346

So what are you saying jimbo? That mayo brought on weaker players in the place of better ones so they could pretend they were injured? Not to mention the injury time that would be added on for each substitution. Not the greatest plan in the world is it? Also there was 7 subs used

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/09/2012 17:37:26    1273355

It doesn't make you any less of a fan to say that Mayo indulged in some less than sporting antics. In fact it's the opposite, it shows that you can be unbiased and give a fair assessment. I've admitted that Tyrone have resorted to some things they shouldn't have, all counties have done so to varying degrees at some point. Any points directed at you you'll either ignore or instead refer to the county that poster hails from. If a Dublin man makes valid points your response is 'Sure you were worse against Laois'. If a Tyrone man makes valid points it's 'Sure you were worse 5 years ago'. It's all very childish and petty stuff. You're clearly unwilling or unable to engage in actual meaningful discussion so there's no point in trying any more, I'm afraid blind cheerleader was a very apt description for you when it comes to Mayo

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 26/09/2012 17:42:59    1273359

Debate after debate avoids the main point of our shortcomings. Our strike force on the inside line is just not good enough to win an All Ireland.
Nor in fact do we have any better.Michaeal Murphys potential brilliance had been signposted since he was under age.

Brinsley Swartz (Mayo) - Posts: 2225 - 26/09/2012 17:44:02    1273362

Jesus is it possible to discuss any topic on this forum without degenerating it into political sh*te.....

Anyhoo, I do feel sorry for Mayo, that's their 6th final defeat since '89 isn't it? (I'm open to correction on that)

BUt I'm sure the vast majority of folks in Mayo freely admit they were beaten by the better side on the day and Donegal deserved it

And I'm sure when their day comes, the vast majority of neutrals will be delighted for them

gigoer (Wexford) - Posts: 1998 - 26/09/2012 17:56:27    1273375

The Master

You are really letting yourself down, you are telling me that the Mayo players legitimately had cramp after 40 mins of football ???? Come on now pull the other one. You do realise Mayo had one of the most sought after Fitness and Conditioning coaches in their setup. Dublin didnt roll around the ground against Laois so you have no argument.

Last word from me on this- Horan established a gameplay to hold Dublin by the method of fouling our half backs at every given opportunity hence Mayo played so high up the pitch, when the unplanned happened and Mayo found themselfs with such a healthy lead they utilised gamemanship, and a never seen before level of time wasting after 40 mins.

You have made your mini break through now I only hope you come back next year without having to resort to such a level of faking cramp/injury cause the danger is a rule will be brought in that the game does not stop when a player goes down and play will continue when someone is seriously hurt.

The boy that cried wolf comes to mind.

Bluewave (Dublin) - Posts: 552 - 26/09/2012 18:48:33    1273402

nothing wrong with a bit of politics gigoer

ffgg (Longford) - Posts: 2571 - 26/09/2012 19:02:10    1273422

mayo are just too weak mentally. they're always a bit of a soft touch compared to the other big teams around the country. constantly collapse when it matters most. donegal had another few gears in them if needed, but mayo never looked like they would ever close that gap completely. mayo just have this mental block on all-ireland final day that they cant get over and it seemed to start when they couldnt put meath away after playing them off the field for 70 mintes in 96. cant see them winning it anytime soon either

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4195 - 26/09/2012 19:12:26    1273438

give it a rest master. why did you hate tyrone over the last decade? because they fouled too much was it (even though it was borne out of a petty frustration that kerry and mayo couldnt beat them most of the time and for the fact they were from a "different country"). yet now mayo were the ones caught out fouling yet you still have an answer for that, trying to make them out to be the victims and making excuses for them because your from there. your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4195 - 26/09/2012 19:17:00    1273442