fair enough master but u have to admit u were wrong with this poating u have kept moving the goalposts. first of itatated with a bias against all english based players then ur argument was based on arteta only and back and over .. look at your first line when this started

and I quote "Anyone else notice this? The squads seem to avoid english based players like the plague".. this has clearly been proven wrong wouldnt you agree ??and looking at the responses no one has supported your case ..

with the valeron guti argument I have pointed out in 05 when valeron last played and guti who has nvr been a spain regular in any squads he only has a dozen or so caps. arteta was a sub for real soicedad so nvr warrented a call up..

senna has nvr got back to top form since been injured (as can be seen by villareal strugles currently this season) after the euros in 08 this is why alonso kept his place prior to this both alonso and senna were first choice at the 2006 world cup..
also u make it sound like alonso is having a shocker at real.. thats far from the truth hes playing as good as he ever did at liverpool.. look at the league table there a point behind barca.. also his absence in the 2nd leg against lyon is seen as a major reason why they got kod from the CL.

arbeloa is no higher in the spain pecking order now then he was at liverpool hes still a sub..

also you nvr covered the likes of luis garcia of liverpool playing for spain in 06 when better spanish based players like iniesta raul were available..

I think its clearly been proven that there is no bias against english based spaniards which was your point in the begining.. if your good enough youl get picked.. in garcias case i dont know what happened.. Is it so hard to admit you were wrong in the begining..

finally I hope arteta makes the spanish squad for the world cup.. even as a liverpool fan hes probley one of my top 5 fav players in the pl.. i would make love to see him go instead of the overrated diving busquests .. but as tey play difff roles they wont be competing with each other..

with the injury doubts over fabregas and iniesta I would say its 50% him going

asf22 (Galway) - Posts: 31 - 28/04/2010 13:12:26    632189

I'm not going to go over tired old arguments, I think asf22 has it pretty much covered and TheMaster's claims have been proven to be nonsense.

I am still awaiting an apology from TheMaster though, for the accusation that I "fabricated facts" in this debate. The fact I offered about Pablo Hernandez was that he "won two caps when Arteta was INJURED." It is well known that Arteta suffered a cruciate knee injury in Febbruary 2009 which kept him out for almost a year. It was during this time that Pablo Hernandez received his two caps, therefore my statement is true and certainly NOT fabricated.

I (still) await your apology.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 28/04/2010 14:50:59    632366

It has been no more proven wrong than proven right nocky, and i am at a loss why you feel the need to keep claiming it. Since ur quest for an apology is all-consuming, I shall hinge it on u apologising for repeatedly claiming these phantom 'proofs' that I am wrong when in fact this isnt the case.

af22, i dont want to keep going over this thread, but the fact of the matter is two people actually commented on the subject matter, besides urself and nocky, one was breffni, who agreed with me, and the other was 3241 who agreed with you, although him disagreeing with you is a usually a sign that u are onto something. I disagree that it was all about arteta, because quite simply it wasnt. There was just more to talk about on him than the others. I said english based players because arbeloa and alonso both played in england, and then moved to spain and simultaneously up the international ladder. Anyway i will agree to disagree

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/04/2010 20:17:25    632884

Let's look again at your original post again TheMaster, because you are continuously twisting the argument in an effort to avoid an embarrassing climbdown.

"The squads seem to avoid english based players like the plague..." - This statement is obviously completely untrue. LUIS GARCIA, Reina, Fabregas, Alonso, Arbeloa, Torres have all been in the majority of Spanish squads during their time in England. Even Albert Riera was in many squads. There aren't any other international-quality Spaniards playing in England, with the possible exception of Arteta (if you dispute this last statement, please feel free to name the other players you feel are being ignored/avoided).

"It amazes me that the likes of riera (while playing in spain), busquets (not even a regular for barca), cazorla, luis hernandez and jesus navas have regularly commanded places in the squad yet mikel arteta has never even been called up once." - Besides being wrong about Busquets, none of these players are the same type of player as Arteta and therefore are not competing for the same place in the squad as him, with the possible exception of PABLO Hernandez, who as I have already pointed out was only involved in squads when Arteta was INJURED.

"But when you look at arbeloa and alonso now commanding starting births, you start to wonder. Arbeloa got about two caps while at liverpool and alonso was well down the pecking order in terms of a starting place. Now he is one of the vice-captains and a regular starter, ahead of, you guessed it, cesc fabregas." - Arbeloa made his international debut when playing for Liverpool, and he was a valuable squad member at Euro08 while playing in England. He earned far more than 2 caps while a Liverpool player. Since his move to Real he has been in and out of the team, starting a few games (only one of them a competitive game) and been a substitute in others, often remaining on the bench for 90mins.

You are also completely wrong with your points about Alonso. How was he "well down the pecking order" exactly? Did he not start in WC2006? Even at Euro08 he wasn't "well down the pecking order", he just lost out to Marcos Senna. He is not now "a regular starter ahead of Fabregas" - Fabregas is an attacking midfielder, Alonso is a defensive midfielder. Do you not understand that? Also Fabregas has started the majority of Spain's recent games anyway, so you're wrong again there.

Speculating about Pique who never settled and broke into United's first team isn't any way to prove your point. Nor is bringing players who last played for Spain more than 5 years ago (Valeron, Guti) into your argument and saying they are keeping the English-based Arteta out of the squad, when he was actually struggling to get into Real Sociedad's team at the time.

There is your argument completely refuted using only concrete facts, not opinions. Will TheMaster have the grace to admit he was wrong? I doubt it.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 29/04/2010 13:26:19    633386

Lads there are no winners in this thread. Let it go...

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12452 - 29/04/2010 14:26:48    633534

master has been proved wrong on some many points its embarrassing

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4195 - 29/04/2010 14:35:07    633557

Breffni, if you have nothing to add to a thread, just stay out of it.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 29/04/2010 14:40:45    633575

All soccer discussion now takes place on the Elevenaside.com thread on this site which can be accessed at www.hoganstand.com/Elevenaside

Administrator (None) - Posts: 2275 - 29/04/2010 14:42:29    633580