Anyone else notice this? The squads seem to avoid english based players like the plague... It amazes me that the likes of riera (while playing in spain), busquets (not even a regular for barca), cazorla, luis hernandez and jesus navas have regularly commanded places in the squad yet mikel arteta has never even been called up once. You would think fair enough if it was just the one instance. It is possible there could be a fall out or something. But when you look at arbeloa and alonso now commanding starting births, you start to wonder. Arbeloa got about two caps while at liverpool and alonso was well down the pecking order in terms of a starting place. Now he is one of the vice-captains and a regular starter, ahead of, you guessed it, cesc fabregas. Pique is another one, although, fair enough pique wasnt able to get a game at utd, you wonder if he had been playing and stayed where he was would he be starting for spain? I have my doubts...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 24/03/2010 20:30:13    597880

1. Riera was in Spanish squads when playing for Liverpool before his form dipped.
2. Cazorla and Navas are wingers. Arteta plays in centre midfield where Spain have many other, better options.
3. Who is Luis Hernandez?
4. Arbeloa has looked better since his move to Real, but he still made Spanish squads when playing in England.
5. Alonso started ahead of Fabregas at Euro2008, so he was a regular starter when he was playing in England.
6. Fabregas has started the majority of Spain's recent matches (when fit), so Alonso isn't keeping him out of the team now.
7. Busquets is a regular for Barca, and anyway is a different type of player to Arteta.
8. Arteta had a serious knee injury and was out for almost a year, only returning to club football recently.
9. I could be wrong, but I think the club with the most players in the Spanish squad at Euro2008 was Liverpool, who are from ENGLAND.
10. Reina, Torres and Fabregas are all certainties to be in Spain's World Cup squad (barring injuries), and they play in ENGLAND. What other English-based players do you feel are being "discriminated against"? Carlos Cuellar?

You really have outdone yourself with this thread TheMaster.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 24/03/2010 21:17:12    597966

probably because they learn bad habits playing in the huff and puff of the premiership, the same league has ruined many a good player.

millhouse (Meath) - Posts: 892 - 24/03/2010 21:36:13    597988

1. Riera was in Spanish squads when playing for Liverpool before his form dipped.
Exactly, how was he in the squad at all?

2. Cazorla and Navas are wingers. Arteta plays in centre midfield where Spain have many other, better options.
Arteta can play across the midfield. He was originally a right midfielder

3. Who is Luis Hernandez?
Att mid for valencia, nvery average

4. Arbeloa has looked better since his move to Real, but he still made Spanish squads when playing in England.
Yes i said he was in the squad, he has been starting since he went back to spain. He is still the same player. He stopped messi in his tracks in the CL in 07 while playing for liverpool, but no starting spot for his country then...

5. Alonso started ahead of Fabregas at Euro2008, so he was a regular starter when he was playing in England.
Neither Alonso nor fabregas started in euro08, it was senna iniesta xavi silva, funny enough, all spanish based...

6. Fabregas has started the majority of Spain's recent matches (when fit), so Alonso isn't keeping him out of the team now.
They were both starting the last few games but alonso has been placed ahead of him with his nomination as vice-captain

7. Busquets is a regular for Barca, and anyway is a different type of player to Arteta.
He is in and out of the side, hardly a trait of an international...

8. Arteta had a serious knee injury and was out for almost a year, only returning to club football recently.
Arteta was voted midfielder of the season in 07/08 in the premier league, same year as the euros. No injuries that year. Was everton player of the year the thress years before that

9. I could be wrong, but I think the club with the most players in the Spanish squad at Euro2008 was Liverpool, who are from ENGLAND.
Down to rafa benitez signing so many spanish players

10. Reina, Torres and Fabregas are all certainties to be in Spain's World Cup squad (barring injuries), and they play in ENGLAND. What other English-based players do you feel are being "discriminated against"? Carlos Cuellar?
They will hardly drop those lads.

Next

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 24/03/2010 22:00:42    598022

According to SSN this morning Capello is genuinely considering a meeting with Arteta to declare for England as he can now declare for them.
would be some coup for them and would be a huge addition
England have no one in the middle of the park to put their foot on ball, have a look and pick a pass
Scott Parker is the only english centre mid in the mould.
And when you look at the b*****disation of the English Rugby and in particular Cricket teams, i dont think it would pose a problem for them.
Could make sense for all.

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8170 - 25/03/2010 10:00:08    598075

1. Riera was in Spanish squads when playing for Liverpool before his form dipped.
Exactly, how was he in the squad at all?
What point are you trying to make here? You argued that English-based players were being "avoided", yet Riera has appeared for Spain since his move to Liverpool, an ENGLISH club. Riera is at fringe player for Spain at best anyway, he doesn't have the quality of other candidates. Barring injuries he shouldn't get into many Spanish squads.

2. Cazorla and Navas are wingers. Arteta plays in centre midfield where Spain have many other, better options.
Arteta can play across the midfield. He was originally a right midfielder
Navas (3caps) and Cazorla are wingers with pace, Arteta is not. He offers Spain nothing they don't already have in abundance with Fabregas, Iniesta, Xavi, etc. You could say he is a poor man's Fabregas.

3. Who is Luis Hernandez?
Att mid for valencia, nvery average
Did you mean Pablo Hernandez (two international caps as a substitute in 2009 and one goal)?

4. Arbeloa has looked better since his move to Real, but he still made Spanish squads when playing in England.
Yes i said he was in the squad, he has been starting since he went back to spain. He is still the same player. He stopped messi in his tracks in the CL in 07 while playing for liverpool, but no starting spot for his country then...
Spain had/have other options at right back. I think Arbeloa made the Euro2008 squad as back-up, maybe even starting in the group game vs. Greece. Are you suggesting he should have started every match?

5. Alonso started ahead of Fabregas at Euro2008, so he was a regular starter when he was playing in England.
Neither Alonso nor fabregas started in euro08, it was senna iniesta xavi silva, funny enough, all spanish based...
Alonso did actually start a game in Euro2008, and Fabregas started two. I imagine it would have been a close call between Alonso and Senna for the holding midfielder role, but maybe the manager got it right. Didn't Spain win that competition?

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 25/03/2010 11:19:01    598167

6. Fabregas has started the majority of Spain's recent matches (when fit), so Alonso isn't keeping him out of the team now.
They were both starting the last few games but alonso has been placed ahead of him with his nomination as vice-captain
Alonso is a defensive midfielder, Fabregas is primarily an attacking midfielder. Different positions. Also Alonso is more experienced.

7. Busquets is a regular for Barca, and anyway is a different type of player to Arteta.
He is in and out of the side, hardly a trait of an international...
Busquets has started 19 La Liga games for Barcelona this season despite fierce competition. Barcelona have arguably the best midfield in club football. I think he is worth his place in the Spanish squad.

8. Arteta had a serious knee injury and was out for almost a year, only returning to club football recently.
Arteta was voted midfielder of the season in 07/08 in the premier league, same year as the euros. No injuries that year. Was everton player of the year the thress years before that
See point 2. Arteta is a poor man's Fabregas/Xavi/Iniesta. If one of the three were injured he might be worth a call-up.

9. I could be wrong, but I think the club with the most players in the Spanish squad at Euro2008 was Liverpool, who are from ENGLAND.
Down to rafa benitez signing so many spanish players
Does this not undermine your whole argument? Could it be that there just aren't that many international quality Spanish players playing in England?

10. Reina, Torres and Fabregas are all certainties to be in Spain's World Cup squad (barring injuries), and they play in ENGLAND. What other English-based players do you feel are being "discriminated against"? Carlos Cuellar?
They will hardly drop those lads.
I'll ask again, what English-based players do you think are being ignored? Michel Salgado? Jordi Gomez? Almunia?

Your entire argument is laughable TheMaster, just like most of your posts.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 25/03/2010 11:19:23    598169

add to this luis garcia(one of the worst players i've seen wear the liverpool jersey) started in the 06 world cup ahead of the likes of raul and iniesta.. agreed i think arteta is a cracking player would be an ideal signin for man u .. but hes not as good as xavi iniesta cesc alonso navas silva mata so there is no argument..

also spain are regaining euro champs have won something like 40 out 0f last 43 games so they must be doin something right.. whats ur answer to that master

asf22 (Galway) - Posts: 31 - 25/03/2010 12:25:59    598285

C'mon lads, go easy, he's only putting forward an opinion.

I am impressed with your knowledge of Spanish soccer though.

Milic1888 (Galway) - Posts: 132 - 25/03/2010 12:57:57    598348

Do i have to explain every single detail for you nocky? Can you not see what i am saying without a neon lighted arrow? Im not saying arteta should be in the starting team every time. But never even made a squad? And then you see the lads that have gotten caps in the meantime... The other players are alonso, who's stock has noticeably risen since he went to madrid, even though he produced better form at liverpool. Same with arbeloa. Did i mention jordi gomez? cuellar? etc. If you werent so consumed with disagreeing with me you might manage a valid point

1. Riera got into the spain squad while in spain so this notion that he got there at liverpool is rubbish. They signed him after he had gotten into the squad. He is not a patch on arteta and never was (who is as much a right midfielder as he is a central midfielder for the geniuses who say iniesta and xavi are keeping him out).

2. Wingers? Who get played on the right side of midfield? So they get played out of position for spain ahead of natural right midfielders? Spain play two up from and four in mf. Where do these wingers come into it?

3. Yes Pablo Hernandez. He's not even as good as riera!

4. No im not suggesting he should be anything, im stating the double standard his performances in england recieved over his performace in spain. He is starting far more for spain now and his form is no better than before

5. Oh so when he starts one game out of the entire competition that makes him a starter? Nonsense, his form as nothing special at the minute, not near as good as at liverpool, so why is he all of a sudden a definate starter and vice captain?

6. Im not disputing they play different positions, im disputing how alonso jumped over fabregas in the captaincy stakes?

7. Busquets is behind yaya toure, and arteta is a far better player. This guy can get into the squad but arteta cant?

8. Again im not saying he should be in every squad, but no caps and on that kind of form? And again he is as much a rm as a cm...

9. No actually it doesnt. They are seen as not as good in england, but are starters once they go back to spain

10.I have named the player i was talking about.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 25/03/2010 14:14:29    598466

Hahahaha. "The squads seem to avoid english based players like the plague..." has now turned into "why isn't Arteta in the Spanish squad?" Why didn't you just start a thread entirely about Arteta in the first place, you wouldn't have had to do all this backtracking now?

I have already clearly explained why Arteta hasn't been in the Spanish squads - he is not nearly as good as Xavi/Iniesta/Fabregas etc. Also he was injured for nearly a year. Alonso is now starting because Senna isn't the force he was, not because he has moved to a Spanish team. He is ahead of Fabregas for the vice-captaincy because he is far more experienced and more certain of a starting berth as the DEFENSIVE midfielder.

Spain carry wingers as reserves in their squad because they offer something different - a different way of playing, Arteta offers NOTHING they don't already have in abundance. He is NOT a winger. Pablo Hernandez won two caps when Arteta was INJURED. Busquets is back-up for Alonso. Yes, Riera was selected for Spain squads when playing in Spain, he also got selected when he was playing in England.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 25/03/2010 15:00:23    598557

why arteta hasnt been capped.. master if ur picking a spanish squad who does he get in for as a playermaker xavi iniesta silva or fabragas also navas is a serious talent.. he prob could have got a few caps only for he got a bad knee injury last year when he was playing well.. busquests( who i dont rate) senna and alonso r competing for da holding role so arteta isnt competing with them .. alonso was in da spain team since after euro 2008 when senna got injured/ lost form .. so he was a starting player for his entire final season for liverpool.. look at their team during wc qualifiers.. another reason why he mightnt get called up is bcoz he nvr came through at barca and had to move to rangers..

arteta would prob be startin for any other international side in da world in fact brazil and england are crying out for a player him .. its just unfortunate for him that spain prob have a collection of some the greatest midfield players of the ppast 50 years..

Oh and if ur looking for someone been ignored by spain look at the barca keeper victor valdes nvr been capped either an hes nvr played in england

asf22 (Galway) - Posts: 31 - 25/03/2010 15:48:29    598649

The thread isnt about arteta, I clearly pointed out that arbeloa and alonso were also part of my argument. If anything it is urself that picked out arteta to argue over. Im just showing you where you are wrong. First off why do you keep saying he is competition with fabregas xavi and iniesta? His natural position is out on the flank. He plays in middle for everton but that doesnt mean he now cannot revert back to his original position. It is like james milner at villa when he moves into the middle; he still plays out wide for england... He would be in direct competition with riera, hernandez, cazorla, navas, (who play for spain in a flat 4 midfield, so you can forget the wingers bit). He has been better and far more consistent than all of these guys so surely he would have gotten a call up before them? And even if you did only see him as a central player, dont guys get injured any more?
My point about busquets is being taken the wrong way, i know they are not going to be going for the same position, it is more to do with the double standard being applied. i.e. using the logic that arteta isnt needed, why do they need a guy who is third in the pecking order? To use ur own words, he offers nothing they dont already have...
As for the injuries bit, he has been performing for the last 6 years, voted midfielder of the season in the best league in the world and not even a call up.
Do you honestly think that riera and co are better than him? god almighty.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 25/03/2010 20:14:02    599221

25/03/2010 20:14:02
TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 1926

599221
The thread isnt about arteta,
__________

Then you go on one almighty rant about.......Arteta, having previously stated "I have named the player i was talking about" - i.e. the player in England you feel was/is being ignored. Look, there's no conspiracy here, Arteta, your man-crush - good player though he is - is simply not as good as the other players vying for his position who myself and asf22 have already pointed out to you.

When perhaps he might have got a call-up due to injuries to the players in front of him he was injured himself. Yes I do think he is a better player than Riera, but Riera is a left-footed winger, whereas Arteta is a right-footed creative midfielder. When Pablo, not Luis, Hernandez won his two caps as a substitute Arteta was injured. Cazorla and Navas both have something Arteta does not have......pace. Juan Mata is also ahead of him for a midfield position, and justifiably so.

I can't be bothered arguing with you about this any more, I have proven you wrong but you refuse to listen. I know your previous form from the Lionel Messi thread and don't wish this thread to go on as long as that with me trying to explain the same things to you over and over again.

You created this thread, entitled it "Spanish football bias against English based players" and asked: "Anyone else notice this?" It would appear no-one else has, so perhaps it's just you. (I fully expect some WUM to come on now and agree with you just for the sake of it, where are you Messrs Wood and Plunkett?)

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 25/03/2010 21:30:44    599331

you are also incorrect with ur claim of the lay out of the spanish midfield

it is

alonso/senna

iniesta xavi

silva

spain dont use out and out wingers they rely on ramos and capedvilla to bomb on
arteta is most def not a winger hes a right midfielder as beckham was not a winger ala navas who is the best young winger in europe.cazorla hasnt been in their squad at all recently as like arteta hes been injured a lot the past year. The reason riera got in afew squads is because spain are short on left sided players. I keep mentioning xavi iniesta and fab bcoz thats who arteta is competiong against riera plays a different position. You may as well complain why casillas puyol and villa are getting picked ahead of arteta.

Also you conveniently ignored the fact that alonso was 1st choice for spain during his last season at liverpool. He even took penalties.

asf22 (Galway) - Posts: 31 - 26/03/2010 11:35:23    599589

I was just responding to ur list of commandments, most of which related to arteta. "I have named the player i was talking about" Unfortunatly, I wrongly wrote 'player' instead of 'players'. It is easy to make mistakes when u are posting at work. However, the original post clearly refers to more players than arteta. Points which you have largely ignored. i.e. why are alonso and arbeloa all of a sudden good enough to command regular starting births when they are not playing as well as they were at liverpool? 'Wingers' i suppose...

Its nonsense that he missed his chance due to injury, he was playing for 5 seasons largely injury free and lads like the guys already mentioned as well as the likes of the never-performing valeron and guti were everpresent, and he cant even make a squad? Were they not replaced by wingers also? Wingers who ur friend from galway claims spain dont even have! This is what u are up against. If wingers are so different from right midfielders then why were david beckham and aaron lennon vying for the same position in the england team? Wingers!

Again i make the point that i dont think he should be starting every game, but to show the form he has shown (consistantly ahead of guys mentioned above) for 6 years and never make a squad is bordering rediculous

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/03/2010 13:55:25    599806

master will never admit he's wrong, even when its blatant obvious.

also here is another fine example of masters bias against spanish football.

although i am suprised he likes a playmaker (arteata), someone who has genuine talent. he normally prefers to watch average english workhorses playing in a league of muck

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4195 - 26/03/2010 14:50:21    599906

you keep ignoring the fact alonso was a 1st choice selection while at liverpool in 09.. and how the awful luis garcia was picked in the 06 world cup ahead of the likes of raul and iniesta .. alonso was also a starter in that wc .. reina also only became a permenent fixture in the spanish squad after joining liverpool.. while the constantly solid victor valdes of barcalona is still awaiting to be capped.. reyes played for spain too while at arsenal ..

five years ago valeron was a fine player and they had the valencia combo of albeda and baraja from the league winning valencia side joaquin also was the right sided player at the time and he was sensational back then before falling away in the last 2/3 yrs .. arteta was after been released from barca and he didnt make the grade at atletico.. he was also playin in scotland for rangers at the time and even boumsong looked a star in that league .. beckham and lennon are right sided players riera is left sided and i said spain are short on left sided players not wingers they only had silva until mata came along recently.. i do think arteta has been very unfortunate not to have been capped but probley becouse he was never great in la liga this counts against him

spain will prob take these midfielders to the world cup in guessin xavi iniesta cesc alonso senna silva busquests mata navas .. arteta has nothing to be ashamed of it just highlights how many outstanding spanish players there are at the moment.. note there is no hernandez cazorla granero joaquin reyes capel pedro who call could argue they are worthy of a spot too

Plus I cant see how you can question the selction of a side who have won 40of 43 odd games playing wonderful football in the process

asf22 (Galway) - Posts: 31 - 26/03/2010 15:07:00    599931

Only 2 of my 10 original points are about Arteta, 3 at a stretch if you include the point I made about Busquets, so you are wrong again.

90% of your entire argument is about Arteta TheMaster, with a bit thrown in about Alonso and Arbeloa. Alonso overtook Senna for the role of holding midfielder shortly after the Euros due to Senna's injury, loss of form and increasing years. He was playing for Liverpool at this time, and Liverpool is in England, so no conspiracy there - that's that argument out the window.

Arbeloa was selected for the Spanish squad for Euro 2008 but lost out on a starting place to Sergio Ramos. The fact that he was selected at all at a time when he was playing for Liverpool disproves your ridiculous assertion that "The squads seem to avoid english based players like the plague..." - not to mention the fact Torres, Reina, Alonso, Fabregas, Riera, LUIS GARCIA all make/made Spanish squads when playing in England.

Furthermore, Arbeloa has made the switch from right back, where he played at Liverpool, to left back at Real Madrid. His form has improved and this has helped his international ambitions no end. Joan Capdevila, Spain's previous left back, is now 32 and not getting any younger, further enhancing Arbeloa's international chances. So you don't have an argument over Arbeloa either.

So now we are down to Arteta. You seem to be in denial about the other midfield options Spain have/had. Arteta simply isn't as good as other players vying for his postion. When perhaps he might have got a call up due to injuries he was on the treatment table himself. Bad luck.

Valeron, who you mentioned in your last post, was last capped in 2005 and correct me if I'm wrong so was Guti. In 2005 Arteta was a Real Sociedad player. A quick check of the atlas will tell you that Sociedad is in the Basque country, which is part of Spain, not England. So Arteta was ignored when he was playing in Spain too. What will you argue next, that Mendieta somehow kept Arteta out of the Spainish team?

On Guti who you brought up, he has been a part of Real Madrid's midfield for 15years, but only has 14 caps. Maybe instead of asking why Arteta has no caps you should ask why Guti has so few. Perhaps it is down to the quantity and quality of midfield players Spain has produced in the last decade, or maybe it is a conspiracy against Real Madrid players...

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 26/03/2010 15:20:33    599956

Pepe Reina joined liverpool in july 2005 and guess when he made his international debut.. 17th of August 2005 .. If your Spanish and you move to England your international career is screwed ay master.. check and mate.. arbeloa and luis garcia also made their internationals debuts while in england as did fabragas obviouslyand i would guess alonso earned 40 to 50 spanish caps while at liverpool .. and reyes hasnt got a look in for spain since leaving arsenal despite been on fire for atletico.. the nail in the coffin for arteta was prob when he failed to replace alonso at soiciead.. and they let him go and by then there were better options in midfield for spain then him

asf22 (Galway) - Posts: 31 - 26/03/2010 15:41:14    599992