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Nations League / Euro Qualifiers A Model For AIC ?

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The best 3-match Champions League 8x4 for me is-

Eight 1, 2, 3 & 4 seeds, initially based on NFL divs.
Draw a 2 & 3 seed to each of the 8 sections, and then add a PAIR of 1s (to 4 strong groups) and a PAIR of 4s (to 4 weaker pools).
Top 2 in each to KO Rd of 16, with the group top 2s seeded, and 4 group winners (or best group 2nds) seeded in AI KO QFs.

To extend to 4 section matches, amend above to -
Group 1v2; Group 3v4; Pool 5v6; & Pool 7v8.
With this 4-match inter-section schedule, we get 8 'div 1v1' pairings (doubling the 4 in intra-section).

AI QF 8 are 1 seeds, 8 Rd of 16 losers (2 seeds) and 4x 'pool bottom 2s' (4 seeds) in the following year.

To extend to 12 section matches (NFL/AIC merger),
amend above to -
Each group team plays all 3 OTHER groups (or pool v pool).
Eight section winners plus 5 group & 3 section wild cards to Rd of 16.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 29/12/2019 17:16:34    2256434

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's never going to be a perfect solution but there are plenty that could work and be reasonable season's for everyone.

The solution above wouldn't be though. There are just too many intercounty fixtures, makes it a complete non runner."
None which have been considered by the GAA or the representative bodies.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 29/12/2019 18:04:57    2256439

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "None which have been considered by the GAA or the representative bodies."
That's fair but I think it's more to do with a lack of imagination rather than a willingness to compromise.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 29/12/2019 19:12:57    2256448

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My issue with a split down the middle is that the gap between Div 2 and 4 isn't big enough to warrant it.

Keep the League as it is. Scrap the provincials and uses the Champions League model. That leaves us with 13 games minimum for each team. 17 for teams who make it to the final. Kick the season off with a game between the All-Ireland Champions and League champions.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 30/12/2019 00:17:18    2256475

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "My issue with a split down the middle is that the gap between Div 2 and 4 isn't big enough to warrant it.

Keep the League as it is. Scrap the provincials and uses the Champions League model. That leaves us with 13 games minimum for each team. 17 for teams who make it to the final. Kick the season off with a game between the All-Ireland Champions and League champions."
Yeah I hear you.

I think where the gaps exists are right at the top.

Dublin and Kerry on their day can pretty much hammer everyone else.

The likes of Tyrone down to say Monaghan/Meath can cause an upset against Kerry, they can also hammer the odd lower division team but they can also get caught out by division 2 or division 3 teams.

You've then very little between the 10th-26th best teams and then a handful of weaker teams at the bottom who aren't really at the races.

An even split of 2 isn't to divide the teams into their levels.

It's just to create a more exciting competition.

By having a tiered competition you add promotion and relegation and you create more meaningful matches for teams around the 10th-22nd ranked teams.

These teams aren't going to win the All Ireland but they can play division 1 and use regular games against the top teams to build over time.

Teams not in the top level are only 1 season away from it and the 2nd tier is taken seriously as the route to the top tier.

My problem with the champions league style 8 groups of 4 is that it doesn't increase the number of games between the top teams. Those are the games that excite people. The current championship takes an age to get interesting.

It's only going to be worse with a champions league style competition where you don't even have the Ulster and Connacht championships to keep us interested.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 30/12/2019 09:33:56    2256488

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah I hear you.

I think where the gaps exists are right at the top.

Dublin and Kerry on their day can pretty much hammer everyone else.

The likes of Tyrone down to say Monaghan/Meath can cause an upset against Kerry, they can also hammer the odd lower division team but they can also get caught out by division 2 or division 3 teams.

You've then very little between the 10th-26th best teams and then a handful of weaker teams at the bottom who aren't really at the races.

An even split of 2 isn't to divide the teams into their levels.

It's just to create a more exciting competition.

By having a tiered competition you add promotion and relegation and you create more meaningful matches for teams around the 10th-22nd ranked teams.

These teams aren't going to win the All Ireland but they can play division 1 and use regular games against the top teams to build over time.

Teams not in the top level are only 1 season away from it and the 2nd tier is taken seriously as the route to the top tier.

My problem with the champions league style 8 groups of 4 is that it doesn't increase the number of games between the top teams. Those are the games that excite people. The current championship takes an age to get interesting.

It's only going to be worse with a champions league style competition where you don't even have the Ulster and Connacht championships to keep us interested."
Any system which has promotion/relegation would ideally have several teams moving between the tiers every year but the GAA will likely go for the format used by most counties for their club competitions. One up, one down. Group stage is necessary to ensure that every team gets at least 3 games. I'd probably put 2nd and 3rd placed teams in Tier 2 into a preliminary quarter-final to eliminate dead rubbers.

Another format is the one proposed by Jim McGuinness, albeit without the provincial championships. Let's say All-Ireland Champions + Tier 2 Champions + top 14 teams in the League.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 30/12/2019 18:22:42    2256548

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Any system which has promotion/relegation would ideally have several teams moving between the tiers every year but the GAA will likely go for the format used by most counties for their club competitions. One up, one down. Group stage is necessary to ensure that every team gets at least 3 games. I'd probably put 2nd and 3rd placed teams in Tier 2 into a preliminary quarter-final to eliminate dead rubbers.

Another format is the one proposed by Jim McGuinness, albeit without the provincial championships. Let's say All-Ireland Champions + Tier 2 Champions + top 14 teams in the League."
I've nothing against group games. I just don't like 8 groups of 4.

I just want more games between top teams.

I think what could work would be.

Late February/March

Provincial championships

April to Mid May

6 week club break

Mid May to August

Championship

2 tiers, 2 groups of 8

Top 3 from each group to knockout rounds in tier 1.
Top 4 from each group to knockout rounds in tier 2

Provincial champions guaranteed a spot in tier 1
Previous season's tier 2 finalists given a spot in tier 1
10 others given places based on previous season's tier 1.

Hurling should have 3 tiers of 2 groups of 6.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 31/12/2019 08:27:54    2256603

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I've nothing against group games. I just don't like 8 groups of 4.

I just want more games between top teams.

I think what could work would be.

Late February/March

Provincial championships

April to Mid May

6 week club break

Mid May to August

Championship

2 tiers, 2 groups of 8

Top 3 from each group to knockout rounds in tier 1.
Top 4 from each group to knockout rounds in tier 2

Provincial champions guaranteed a spot in tier 1
Previous season's tier 2 finalists given a spot in tier 1
10 others given places based on previous season's tier 1.

Hurling should have 3 tiers of 2 groups of 6."
Can't see 2 groups of 8 happening. It will be groups of 4 at most. Most counties won't to keep the League as it is as well. I'm not a fan of giving the Tier 2 finalists a place in Tier 1. It cheapens the final IMO. It's why I don't like League finals. The Championship needs to be based upon League results if you want multiple teams moving between the tiers.

Tier 1

All-Ireland Champions + Tier Two Champions + top 14 teams in the League.

Tier 2

Remaining 16 teams.

Each tier has 4 groups of 4. Top placed teams go into the quarter-finals. 2nd and 3rd placed teams go into the preliminary quarter-final. The last part eliminates dead rubber games.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 31/12/2019 14:07:08    2256639

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Can't see 2 groups of 8 happening. It will be groups of 4 at most. Most counties won't to keep the League as it is as well. I'm not a fan of giving the Tier 2 finalists a place in Tier 1. It cheapens the final IMO. It's why I don't like League finals. The Championship needs to be based upon League results if you want multiple teams moving between the tiers.

Tier 1

All-Ireland Champions + Tier Two Champions + top 14 teams in the League.

Tier 2

Remaining 16 teams.

Each tier has 4 groups of 4. Top placed teams go into the quarter-finals. 2nd and 3rd placed teams go into the preliminary quarter-final. The last part eliminates dead rubber games."
That would be a very good system alright.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 31/12/2019 16:02:26    2256650

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Still like my 2 Confs of 16 - its essential elements are -
- Confs initially consist of 'half of each NFL div'.
- Teams play a 12-match Inter-Conf schedule.
- Top teams (4 to 8) advance to OWN Conf KO (non repeat)
- Could have mid-table (8 to 4) advance to OWN Conf Tier 2 KO as well.

There is quite a spread of varying quality games, incl 16 'all div 1' pairings - div 2/3 teams play both div1/4.

Note, as I accomodate a 4 rd KO, I am reducing what would be a full '16 v 16' Inter-Conf to 12 matches.

In future years - prior year Confs SF 2×4 are seeded 1; next Conf 2x4 are seeded 2; and last Conf 2x4 are seeded 4.

Could make it 12 of 15 Intra Conf.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 01/01/2020 20:26:21    2256765

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Replying To omahant:  "Still like my 2 Confs of 16 - its essential elements are -
- Confs initially consist of 'half of each NFL div'.
- Teams play a 12-match Inter-Conf schedule.
- Top teams (4 to 8) advance to OWN Conf KO (non repeat)
- Could have mid-table (8 to 4) advance to OWN Conf Tier 2 KO as well.

There is quite a spread of varying quality games, incl 16 'all div 1' pairings - div 2/3 teams play both div1/4.

Note, as I accomodate a 4 rd KO, I am reducing what would be a full '16 v 16' Inter-Conf to 12 matches.

In future years - prior year Confs SF 2×4 are seeded 1; next Conf 2x4 are seeded 2; and last Conf 2x4 are seeded 4.

Could make it 12 of 15 Intra Conf."
Why do you like complicated competition formats? Why not have a simple easy system like those used in most sports and competitions and why not keep things to just one thread this year. It could be your resolution to have all your ideas in one thread and we vote at end of year which is best?

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3495 - 02/01/2020 18:35:14    2256954

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Motivated by an existing and very successful US 32-team NFL, with a 16-match regular season, leading to a 12-team KO stage. I have never heard anyone here over the years (not one) say that the structure is convoluted - all fans take it in stride. There is a difference between complex and confusing - many complex phenomena are awesome - the cosmos and snowflakes are just two.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 03/01/2020 05:47:46    2257028

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Replying To omahant:  "Motivated by an existing and very successful US 32-team NFL, with a 16-match regular season, leading to a 12-team KO stage. I have never heard anyone here over the years (not one) say that the structure is convoluted - all fans take it in stride. There is a difference between complex and confusing - many complex phenomena are awesome - the cosmos and snowflakes are just two."
It's not all that complex to be honest. It's just messy looking in the HoganStand formatting.

I still think it's a bad system. It's got zero chance of being brought in over here.

It's really not a good thing to give weaker teams an easier schedule. There's better ways to solve the problem that you're solving here.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 03/01/2020 09:36:39    2257038

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's not all that complex to be honest. It's just messy looking in the HoganStand formatting.

I still think it's a bad system. It's got zero chance of being brought in over here.

It's really not a good thing to give weaker teams an easier schedule. There's better ways to solve the problem that you're solving here."
There are posters here that target things that might get GAA approval, and others like me who just post items that I like regardless of whether it would pass.
I'd be ok with giving the weakest a slightly easier schedule - a bit like letting div 3/4 teams have a tier 1 KO berth, although in my idea, I'd still expect the top teams only to advance.
The bonus points might disincentivise tanking [4th quartile starting 8 pts behind the 1st (with easirr 12-match schedule), 2nd & 3rd quartiles start with 4 pts].

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 03/01/2020 14:09:44    2257094

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Replying To omahant:  "There are posters here that target things that might get GAA approval, and others like me who just post items that I like regardless of whether it would pass.
I'd be ok with giving the weakest a slightly easier schedule - a bit like letting div 3/4 teams have a tier 1 KO berth, although in my idea, I'd still expect the top teams only to advance.
The bonus points might disincentivise tanking [4th quartile starting 8 pts behind the 1st (with easirr 12-match schedule), 2nd & 3rd quartiles start with 4 pts
."]You can't give teams free points either.

The integrity of competitions really should be one of the most important things.

I personally very much dislike that the GAA can give knockout places to teams playing at lower grades.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 03/01/2020 15:03:44    2257107

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Replying To omahant:  "Motivated by an existing and very successful US 32-team NFL, with a 16-match regular season, leading to a 12-team KO stage. I have never heard anyone here over the years (not one) say that the structure is convoluted - all fans take it in stride. There is a difference between complex and confusing - many complex phenomena are awesome - the cosmos and snowflakes are just two."
I said it was convoluted going to 12 from 32 just is unnecessary and bit hypocritical of you to call people snowflakes.....
Why not just propose something simple and keep it to the one thread?

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3495 - 03/01/2020 15:40:49    2257116

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I honestly presented cosmos/snowflakes at face value with no ill to anyone - snowflakes are a beautiful but complex design was my point, no more - then I get feedback like this - Wham and I can disagree with respect/common courtesy - I would rather disengage with you who are lack same or confidence to try.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 04/01/2020 03:49:41    2257233

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Replying To omahant:  "I honestly presented cosmos/snowflakes at face value with no ill to anyone - snowflakes are a beautiful but complex design was my point, no more - then I get feedback like this - Wham and I can disagree with respect/common courtesy - I would rather disengage with you who are lack same or confidence to try."
Drop the name calling. How can anyone take you serious if all you do is name call anyone who makes criticisms of your ideas. I dont see point in having a new thread for every single idea you have when so many are similar and on the same topics. You are far from perfect in treating people with common courtesy as you regularly treat myself and others with horrible arrogance and dismissive Bess

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3495 - 05/01/2020 02:54:17    2257435

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US sports tend to set up their competitions and schedules to ensure competitive games. Keeps people interested.

European sports (including GAA) are set up to favour the stronger teams, ensuring the bigger and richer are always at the top.

You have to change a 150 year old mindset in European sports to get europeans to think about sport the way they do in the US.

In GAA the whole system is set up for the likes of Dublin and Kerry to succeed and prevents smaller counties even getting enough games in the summer to allow them improve.

Hurling was the same for years but now that it's been changed it is a far more competitive championship

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 10/01/2020 07:12:52    2258592

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "US sports tend to set up their competitions and schedules to ensure competitive games. Keeps people interested.

European sports (including GAA) are set up to favour the stronger teams, ensuring the bigger and richer are always at the top.

You have to change a 150 year old mindset in European sports to get europeans to think about sport the way they do in the US.

In GAA the whole system is set up for the likes of Dublin and Kerry to succeed and prevents smaller counties even getting enough games in the summer to allow them improve.

Hurling was the same for years but now that it's been changed it is a far more competitive championship"
Would my 2 Confs of 16v16 (only 12 of 16 played) give counties sufficient exposure to the games they need to develop (level playing field) ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 10/01/2020 13:55:57    2258716

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