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Today's Examiner indicates that the GPA will come back to the table with a revised AIC revamp idea. How should they tweak what they had ?
I'd go for this -
After current Prov QFs are played, have a draw for 8 fours (4 groups with a SF from 2 'bordering' Provs in each; 4 pools with a pair of teams from 2 'bordering' Provs in each, as is possible).
Bordering means UL (Uls/Lein), LM, MC and CU.
Prov SFs and Pool Prov derbies are played as the 3rd of the 3 matches to keep them relevant.
4 Prov Finals are played - 4 Champs, 8 section winners and 4 'wild cards' from the 8 sections form the AI Last 16, with byes received by Prov Champs teams qualifying twice.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2580 - 19/08/2016 17:39:40
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Not a bad change to their proposal.
I'd like the league to be more important.
I'd have 4x8 mixed quality league groups. Coming up with 12 teams like your group stage.
Top 2 from each group automatically qualify for AI series.
3rd and 4th place team play a playoff round for the last 4 places.
Provincial championships are played as is and will be do or die for all.
A team that has already qualified for the AI series through the league will be playing for a bye to the quarters. Any team not already qualified can still reach the AI series by winner their province. But play in the AI round 1.
League games get played March to May bank holiday weekend (playoff round for the 3rd and 4th place team the week after.)
Big match days to be made of St Patrick's day, Easter and May Day.
Start provincials 3 weeks after May Day and play them off over 7 weeks.
Take another 7 weeks for the AI series.
Season is over on 3/4th week of August.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 19/08/2016 18:24:11
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Replying To omahant: "Today's Examiner indicates that the GPA will come back to the table with a revised AIC revamp idea. How should they tweak what they had ?
I'd go for this -
After current Prov QFs are played, have a draw for 8 fours (4 groups with a SF from 2 'bordering' Provs in each; 4 pools with a pair of teams from 2 'bordering' Provs in each, as is possible).
Bordering means UL (Uls/Lein), LM, MC and CU.
Prov SFs and Pool Prov derbies are played as the 3rd of the 3 matches to keep them relevant.
4 Prov Finals are played - 4 Champs, 8 section winners and 4 'wild cards' from the 8 sections form the AI Last 16, with byes received by Prov Champs teams qualifying twice." The GPA suggested: 8 groups of 4.
The GAA suggested: 2 groups of 4.
Compromise solution: 4 groups of 4.
8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifier counties.
Provincial winners given carrot of all 3 games at home.
All others 1 home game each.
Qualifier Rounds 1 and 2 played in parallel to provincial semi-finals and finals.
All teams will have a similar enough run of games ahead of the group stage.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 19/08/2016 18:32:17
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The GPA were on the right track but they went completely overboard by proposing 6 group games and 3 teams qualifying per group.
Keep it simple, 8 groups of 4, 3 group games each with the top 2 teams from each group qualifying for the AI last 16. Also you could seed the groups using both the League and the Provincials.
That's straightforward and it respects the wishes of weaker counties to remain in the main competition, it doesn't cut them adrift into some token B competition that they overwhelming rejected.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 19/08/2016 18:36:07
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Do a late late job
There's an all ireland medal for all who enter, Sam can spend 1 week and 6 days in each county for the year.
That will please the masses
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 19/08/2016 19:06:56
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Replying To Htaem: "The GPA were on the right track but they went completely overboard by proposing 6 group games and 3 teams qualifying per group.
Keep it simple, 8 groups of 4, 3 group games each with the top 2 teams from each group qualifying for the AI last 16. Also you could seed the groups using both the League and the Provincials.
That's straightforward and it respects the wishes of weaker counties to remain in the main competition, it doesn't cut them adrift into some token B competition that they overwhelming rejected." GPA's proposal was only for 3 group games not 6.
I agree I don't like 3 going through from each group.
That was to try and ensure there were no dead rubbers.
There are a lot of proposals being bandied about.
Infinite number of tweaks that can be made.
The big things that need to happen are:
Play the provincials off over 7 weeks. Ulster and Leinster on the odd weeks, Munster Connacht on the even weeks. Every game in a round played the same weekend.
Get rid of replays. Even after extra time. Play golden score extra time if still level at the end of the second period of extra time.
Bring the AI series forward to be finished before September.
Push the league back to not start until March
Get rid of the qualifiers in both codes, they cause too many problems with scheduling. It's harder to schedule a club championship season in advance at county board level when the weeks that your county teams are playing is dependent on what round you exit your provincial championships.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 19/08/2016 19:22:54
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Replying To Htaem: "The GPA were on the right track but they went completely overboard by proposing 6 group games and 3 teams qualifying per group.
Keep it simple, 8 groups of 4, 3 group games each with the top 2 teams from each group qualifying for the AI last 16. Also you could seed the groups using both the League and the Provincials.
That's straightforward and it respects the wishes of weaker counties to remain in the main competition, it doesn't cut them adrift into some token B competition that they overwhelming rejected." I do like what you suggest, it is simple and it would work.
My personal preference would be for the league to take more precedence though also.
Get 12 teams coming through from the league in whatever fashion you want.
Play provincial series to get 4 more teams.
If a provincial champion is in the 12 they get a bye otherwise they'll play in the AI series first round.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 19/08/2016 20:06:25
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Replying To Whammo86: "I do like what you suggest, it is simple and it would work.
My personal preference would be for the league to take more precedence though also.
Get 12 teams coming through from the league in whatever fashion you want.
Play provincial series to get 4 more teams.
If a provincial champion is in the 12 they get a bye otherwise they'll play in the AI series first round." I like Wham's '12+4' and Hteam's '8+8'.
I would prefer the avoidance of '1v4' pairings in both, and in Hteam's, 8 'wild cards' as opposed to 8 2nds (jazzes things up a bit, makes 3rd place potentially relevant for some, but not 8 3rds as in GPA plan)
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2580 - 19/08/2016 21:19:57
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Replying To legendzxix: "The GPA suggested: 8 groups of 4.
The GAA suggested: 2 groups of 4.
Compromise solution: 4 groups of 4.
8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifier counties.
Provincial winners given carrot of all 3 games at home.
All others 1 home game each.
Qualifier Rounds 1 and 2 played in parallel to provincial semi-finals and finals.
All teams will have a similar enough run of games ahead of the group stage." I like this overall and don't really want to knock it BUT - to get to the Group Stage 4x4, the Prov SF 16 needs to win EITHER of its next 2 matches (with back door support), but the Prov non-SF 16 must win BOTH (albeit by avoiding most of the strongest teams). [As an example, Tipp is guaranteed a Rd 2 berth next year, but strong Uls teams would still contest Rd 1]. I suppose your Qual Rd seeding point made earlier can be an offset for this. The 4x4 is broad enough to give all 32 teams a 'near-fair' shot.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2580 - 19/08/2016 21:35:44
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The league could also be tiered. Division 1 of 2 by 8. Top 3 Automatically into AI series 12.
4-6 from each division 1 group and 1-3 from each division 2 group playoff for the final 6 places.
If there has to be a national league final then the top placed team from each section qualifies.
If it were possible to have no provincial championships then it'd be good to have division 1 North, division 1 South and division 2 North and division 2 South.
Same system top 2 From each division 1 section straight into AI quarter-finals.
Top 3 from each division 1 section into last 12.
4-6 From division 1 into 1st Knockout round, 1-3 from each division 2 section into 1st knockout round.
You get the local aspect from the geographical split.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 19/08/2016 22:03:16
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Still think if we evened out the provinces to four eights so many problems would be solved. Teams from Ulster & Leinster rotate annually so once every nine years Donegal have to play in Connacht & once every five or six years Dublin play in Munster.
Would allow structure to be set in stone & organise it so losers in round one play same weekend as winners so dates are set in stone.
Of the GAA's proposal of 2 groups of four has merit but where it falls down again is Ulster. Ulster is always last final to be played & most ferocious. Loser is expected to play a qualifier then 3 group matched, a semi final & final to win Sam.
Forget it. Not fair when Munster champions again have month to prepare & even runner up not imconvienced too much.
Solution could be to play Ulster final as game one of the quarter final group stages. Doesn't dilute quality of match as trophy at stake & still do or die. That group will still have both Ulster teams. Another provincial champion & qualifier.
Leinster final could be the same as they normally play late too & have more teams. Evens up the amount of games too as Kerry & Mayo normally only play twice in province
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 188 - 19/08/2016 23:19:12
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Replying To shaggykev: "Still think if we evened out the provinces to four eights so many problems would be solved. Teams from Ulster & Leinster rotate annually so once every nine years Donegal have to play in Connacht & once every five or six years Dublin play in Munster.
Would allow structure to be set in stone & organise it so losers in round one play same weekend as winners so dates are set in stone.
Of the GAA's proposal of 2 groups of four has merit but where it falls down again is Ulster. Ulster is always last final to be played & most ferocious. Loser is expected to play a qualifier then 3 group matched, a semi final & final to win Sam.
Forget it. Not fair when Munster champions again have month to prepare & even runner up not imconvienced too much.
Solution could be to play Ulster final as game one of the quarter final group stages. Doesn't dilute quality of match as trophy at stake & still do or die. That group will still have both Ulster teams. Another provincial champion & qualifier.
Leinster final could be the same as they normally play late too & have more teams. Evens up the amount of games too as Kerry & Mayo normally only play twice in province" I don't think the provincial make ups, would or should be altered.
Numbers can still be evened up somewhat and the schedule improved.
You can create 4 groups of 8 using the provincial championships.
Join Munster with Leinster and Ulster with Connacht.
Play 1 Leinster preliminary first (should be between 2 North Leinster teams.)
Loser of this game joins Ulster Connacht to even the numbers.
Create 2 groups of 8 in each using the provincial championships draw. So top half of Ulster (4 teams) joins top half of Connacht (3 teams) plus extra Leinster teams. Other group is 5 Ulster plus 3 Connacht. There's 5 Leinster and 3 Munster in each of their groups 3.
Every team plays 7 group matches to include any provincial championship matches bar the final.
5 teams from each group (to include both provincial finalists that have emerged) go forward to the second phase.
In the second phase teams play the 5 teams from the other group in their region. This will include the provincial finals. 6 teams from each region qualify for AI series, to include the provincial champions.
Other than the Leinster preliminary every team will play 12 games to get to the knockout series.
Start the season on 1st weekend of March for the Leinster preliminary teams.
1st group games played on St Patrick's day. Group games finished on June bank holiday with games also having been played on Easter weekend and May Day.
Second phase played in June and July with the last games played on August bank holiday.
Knockout rounds get played August and September.
There's plenty of break weeks with them being known well in advance, so club championship can be planned for these weeks.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 20/08/2016 09:33:22
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It's fair enough to set a standard in order to make the All-Ireland series. In 8 groups of 4 there's no achievement in being at that stage of the competition. Apart from the regular league supporters, many will wait until the knockout rounds.
Kelly and McGuinness were in favour of a top 16 stage. That suggests they were thinking along similar lines of setting a bar for qualification.
Many world sports have continental qualifiers with a set number of qualifiers from each continent. The All-Ireland offers something similar in having a representation from a number of provinces.
The composition of a top 16 is debatable. If all provincial finalists are included, there has to be a clear reward for winning the provincial title.
After that the following options are available:
a. Qualifier Rounds 1 and 2 as they are.
b. Seeding qualifier rounds based on league placing.
c. Next best 8 non-provincial finalists based on league.
d. Designating each province a set number of places to ensure half the number of counties from each province make the final 16.
With option d. designating each province 50% representation in the final 16 works out as:
3 from Munster - 2 provincial finalists and 1 qualifier.
3 from Connaught - 2 provincial finalists and 1 qualifier.
4 or 5 from Ulster - 2 provincial finalists and 2 or 3 qualifiers.
5 or 6 from Leinster - 2 provincial finalists and 3 or 4 qualifiers.
In 50% representation from each province in the final 16, Ulster and Leinster would have to agree on sharing 1 spot. They could alternate 1 spot every year. When Ulster has it, 1 Leinster county would enter the Ulster qualifier section. When Leinster has it, an Ulster county would enter the Leinster qualifier section. If all provinces have 50% representation, it'll be up to each province to control qualification to the All-Ireland series. Instead of complaining to congress or on forums like this, the debate will have to take place within provinces. The GAA would simply organise the All-Ireland championship from the 16 qualifiers from the 4 provinces.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 20/08/2016 11:03:42
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Replying To Whammo86: "GPA's proposal was only for 3 group games not 6.
I agree I don't like 3 going through from each group.
That was to try and ensure there were no dead rubbers.
There are a lot of proposals being bandied about.
Infinite number of tweaks that can be made.
The big things that need to happen are:
Play the provincials off over 7 weeks. Ulster and Leinster on the odd weeks, Munster Connacht on the even weeks. Every game in a round played the same weekend.
Get rid of replays. Even after extra time. Play golden score extra time if still level at the end of the second period of extra time.
Bring the AI series forward to be finished before September.
Push the league back to not start until March
Get rid of the qualifiers in both codes, they cause too many problems with scheduling. It's harder to schedule a club championship season in advance at county board level when the weeks that your county teams are playing is dependent on what round you exit your provincial championships." My apologies Whammo86, I misread the GPA's proposal, I thought they wanted 6 group games instead of 3, which would have been madness.
Anyway, I agree largely with what you're saying, the intercounty season must be tightened up and replays done away with to allow more time for club games.
Having re-read the GPA's proposal from last year, I think they're very much on the right track, although 3 teams qualifying per group is definitely too many and would take from the competition, 2 per group is a must. Also I'm very much in favour of giving provincial champions top seed regardless of league status because I think it helps retain their value. Another idea would be to guarantee provincial runners up a place in pot 2 (unless of course they already qualify for pot 1 through the League), I think this would give weaker teams even more incentive to push for provincial honours.
The Gaa really need to consider radical change at this point, the old system was fine for a long time but it's had it's day, just look at how inconsistently each team qualified for the semi-finals:
Kerry played 3 games (all handy games)
Dublin played 4 games (all handy games, Donegal were nowhere near good enough and Dublin were largely in 2nd gear)
Tipp played 5 games (Most of which were tough)
Mayo played 6 games (3 tough games maybe)
It's a bit of a joke when you look at it in all honesty.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 20/08/2016 13:32:48
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Replying To legendzxix: "It's fair enough to set a standard in order to make the All-Ireland series. In 8 groups of 4 there's no achievement in being at that stage of the competition. Apart from the regular league supporters, many will wait until the knockout rounds.
Kelly and McGuinness were in favour of a top 16 stage. That suggests they were thinking along similar lines of setting a bar for qualification.
Many world sports have continental qualifiers with a set number of qualifiers from each continent. The All-Ireland offers something similar in having a representation from a number of provinces.
The composition of a top 16 is debatable. If all provincial finalists are included, there has to be a clear reward for winning the provincial title.
After that the following options are available:
a. Qualifier Rounds 1 and 2 as they are.
b. Seeding qualifier rounds based on league placing.
c. Next best 8 non-provincial finalists based on league.
d. Designating each province a set number of places to ensure half the number of counties from each province make the final 16.
With option d. designating each province 50% representation in the final 16 works out as:
3 from Munster - 2 provincial finalists and 1 qualifier.
3 from Connaught - 2 provincial finalists and 1 qualifier.
4 or 5 from Ulster - 2 provincial finalists and 2 or 3 qualifiers.
5 or 6 from Leinster - 2 provincial finalists and 3 or 4 qualifiers.
In 50% representation from each province in the final 16, Ulster and Leinster would have to agree on sharing 1 spot. They could alternate 1 spot every year. When Ulster has it, 1 Leinster county would enter the Ulster qualifier section. When Leinster has it, an Ulster county would enter the Leinster qualifier section. If all provinces have 50% representation, it'll be up to each province to control qualification to the All-Ireland series. Instead of complaining to congress or on forums like this, the debate will have to take place within provinces. The GAA would simply organise the All-Ireland championship from the 16 qualifiers from the 4 provinces." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992-93_National_Football_League_(Ireland)
This was a one-off format for the National Football League. In order to re-format the league into four divisions, the 1992-93 league consisted of four "mixed ability" groups of eight teams each. The experimental format threw up some of the most unusual pairings in league history, and was credited with boosting attendances by as much as 60 per cent. [6]
I think for smaller counties getting to play different teams can make things more interesting, maybe be more likely to go to the game.
It won't be interesting for larger counties.
Maybe that's not such a bad thing.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 20/08/2016 13:40:23
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This was a one-off format for the National Football League. In order to re-format the league into four divisions, the 1992-93 league consisted of four "mixed ability" groups of eight teams each. The experimental format threw up some of the most unusual pairings in league history, and was credited with boosting attendances by as much as 60 per cent.
Whammo86 (Antrim)
The GAA have tried a number of league formats in fairness. 4 divisions of 8. 3 divisions with division 3 split north and south. The group format of 91-92 was unpopular. That resulted in '92-'93 intermediary format as they returned to 4 divisions of 8. In the 00's we had 2 groups of 8 in divisions 1 and 2 followed by a return to 4 divisions of 8.
There aren't too many calls to revamp the national football league. It could be given added incentive as suggested by Kelly / McGuinness or using for seeding qualifier rounds. Beyond that the league will stay as it is.
The GAA rightly or wrongly think from a financial point of view. The league is doing ok on that score.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 20/08/2016 15:01:03
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Replying To Htaem: "My apologies Whammo86, I misread the GPA's proposal, I thought they wanted 6 group games instead of 3, which would have been madness.
Anyway, I agree largely with what you're saying, the intercounty season must be tightened up and replays done away with to allow more time for club games.
Having re-read the GPA's proposal from last year, I think they're very much on the right track, although 3 teams qualifying per group is definitely too many and would take from the competition, 2 per group is a must. Also I'm very much in favour of giving provincial champions top seed regardless of league status because I think it helps retain their value. Another idea would be to guarantee provincial runners up a place in pot 2 (unless of course they already qualify for pot 1 through the League), I think this would give weaker teams even more incentive to push for provincial honours.
The Gaa really need to consider radical change at this point, the old system was fine for a long time but it's had it's day, just look at how inconsistently each team qualified for the semi-finals:
Kerry played 3 games (all handy games)
Dublin played 4 games (all handy games, Donegal were nowhere near good enough and Dublin were largely in 2nd gear)
Tipp played 5 games (Most of which were tough)
Mayo played 6 games (3 tough games maybe)
It's a bit of a joke when you look at it in all honesty." There are very good ideas here linking NFL and Provs on the one road to Sam which may be the way to go - but just to address your point on vary match quantities and qualities, I think my 'Treble Chance' offers an improvent - again, keep current AIC structure with the following changes -
4 Prov Champs playoff - 2 winners to AI QF, 2 losers to Qual Rd 3;
Losers in 4 Prov Finals enter Rd 2; 8 in SFs to new Rd 1.5(1A); 16 non-SFs to Rd 1.
8 '3rd chance' Rd 1 losers join 8 SF losers, to eliminate 1st 8 teams in Rd 1A.
Remaining 24 in 4-team Champs Playoff and 20-team Rd 2.
6 winners in 12-team Rd 3 join 2 unbeaten Champs in AI QFs.
From Prov SFs and Qual Rd 1, all need 6 wins to claim Sam (with or without a losing match);
Kerry and Mayo have more to do; 3rd chance only for Rd 1 losers goes mostly to Lein/Uls and serves as offset to lopsided Provs.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2580 - 20/08/2016 18:19:16
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Replying To Htaem: "My apologies Whammo86, I misread the GPA's proposal, I thought they wanted 6 group games instead of 3, which would have been madness.
Anyway, I agree largely with what you're saying, the intercounty season must be tightened up and replays done away with to allow more time for club games.
Having re-read the GPA's proposal from last year, I think they're very much on the right track, although 3 teams qualifying per group is definitely too many and would take from the competition, 2 per group is a must. Also I'm very much in favour of giving provincial champions top seed regardless of league status because I think it helps retain their value. Another idea would be to guarantee provincial runners up a place in pot 2 (unless of course they already qualify for pot 1 through the League), I think this would give weaker teams even more incentive to push for provincial honours.
The Gaa really need to consider radical change at this point, the old system was fine for a long time but it's had it's day, just look at how inconsistently each team qualified for the semi-finals:
Kerry played 3 games (all handy games)
Dublin played 4 games (all handy games, Donegal were nowhere near good enough and Dublin were largely in 2nd gear)
Tipp played 5 games (Most of which were tough)
Mayo played 6 games (3 tough games maybe)
It's a bit of a joke when you look at it in all honesty." There are very good ideas here linking NFL and Provs on the one road to Sam which may be the way to go - but just to address your point on vary match quantities and qualities, I think my 'Treble Chance' offers an improvent - again, keep current AIC structure with the following changes -
4 Prov Champs playoff - 2 winners to AI QF, 2 losers to Qual Rd 3;
Losers in 4 Prov Finals enter Rd 2; 8 in SFs to new Rd 1.5(1A); 16 non-SFs to Rd 1.
8 '3rd chance' Rd 1 losers join 8 SF losers, to eliminate 1st 8 teams in Rd 1A.
Remaining 24 in 4-team Champs Playoff and 20-team Rd 2.
6 winners in 12-team Rd 3 join 2 unbeaten Champs in AI QFs.
From Prov SFs and Qual Rd 1, all need 6 wins to claim Sam (with or without a losing match);
Kerry and Mayo have more to do; 3rd chance only for Rd 1 losers goes mostly to Lein/Uls and serves as offset to lopsided Provs.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2580 - 20/08/2016 18:19:47
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Hmmmm.
The GAA are now open to the idea of a group stage. They want to invigorate the qualifiers that have lost their lustre. They are of the opinion that having the qualifiers leading into a group stage will raise the profile of the games and bring back the crowds. Their group stage will bring extra games for provincial grounds.
The GPA are going to come up with ideas of their own. They also want a group stage and more games for provincial grounds. The question really is can they find a compromise?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 20/08/2016 19:56:29
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Replying To legendzxix: "Hmmmm.
The GAA are now open to the idea of a group stage. They want to invigorate the qualifiers that have lost their lustre. They are of the opinion that having the qualifiers leading into a group stage will raise the profile of the games and bring back the crowds. Their group stage will bring extra games for provincial grounds.
The GPA are going to come up with ideas of their own. They also want a group stage and more games for provincial grounds. The question really is can they find a compromise?" Your 16 team group stage is really very good.
2 qualifier rounds is much more streamlined.
I would like if the league and championship were incorporated.
If they don't go down that route then the 16 team group stage feels like an excellent option.
The equivalent 8 team option for the hurling would work really well.
I also agree with you that 16 teams should enter the hurling qualifiers.
If we got those changes along with the provincial championships and qualifiers getting played off in 7 weeks I think we'd be on to a winner.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 20/08/2016 22:22:10
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