I've been thinking about this for quite some time, probably since their Seniors' abject performance against Tipperary. In fairness, things looked very rosey for Cork up to that, with a well won Munster title. It's also worth remembering that Cork came agonisingly close to an All-Ireland the first day out in the 2013 final, and did themselves proud in a marvellous replay.

However, I personally feel that an All-Ireland win in 2013 would have been papering over the cracks more than anything.

Cork have been struggling at underage level. They have not won a minor title since 2001, and have only played in one final since. That was seven years ago. They won the 1997 and 1998 All-Ireland under-21 titles, but have not even made a final since. That's a sixteen year wait. Their colleges ahve struggled too. They are without a Croke Cup since 2002, or a final since 2003. Midleton CBS won the Harty Cup in 2006, and Cork haven't had a Munster finalist since. It's alarming stuff for the Rebels.

I somehow wonder if this is linked to the decline of hurling in the city, a town with massive hurling pedigree. If memory serves me correctly, Blackrock were the last city club to win the county, in 2002. The decline of the big three is shocking. Glen Rovers haven't won the county since 1989, their only title in about forty years. The Barrs haven't won since 1993, and the Rockies since 2002. The big three only had three players between them on this year's panel. I think sustained success in Cork needs to have the city pulling its weight, because I think that's what's been holding Limerick back.

If this is temporary, it's going on a while, and could there be a rot setting in at all levels in Cork hurling? It looks very worrying to me.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 02/10/2014 14:20:45    1659381

Interesting post exile.Bennybunny is the man for this.For the size of the county,the amount of clubs and player participation,its bewildering how poor the county has done over the last 10 years.If they get it right though,which im sure they will,were all in trouble.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 02/10/2014 14:49:14    1659398

Cork hurling.The sleeping giant of the GAA.When it does feel well rested,and ready to engage again,i think they will begin to reel in Kilkennys record number of titles.The strike,or strikes,set them back.Maybe they are still suffereing the affects of this.With the right structures in place,Cork -more than any other county.And quicker also-can get back to the lofty heights of old.I think they will be back with a bang.And we wont be waiting too long for it to happen.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 02/10/2014 15:09:25    1659410

Treaty Exile

Very good post. We talk about this for hours. We have gaping problems but ironically I am not too sure if it is any of what you mentioned.

Before saying what they are, I'd like to say something about some of your points.

Decline of hurling in the city: This is multi-faceted argument. I like to define the city (in my GAA terms) as the Cork harbour area (something that underage GAA-Rebel Og- have started to do) rather than the city boundaries (which does not include suburbs like Douglas - stupid politics involving City and County councils) as this is the Cork urban area (population =350'000 approx -while population of city = 180,000 approx and falling). With this definition, the 4 county semi-finalists are senior clubs, the clubs that dominate in minor level are all urban area clubs. If you walk around the suburbs, you see lots and lots of players out pucking the ball in greens and estates all over the place - out my way - northside -anyway. Hurling is very popular - we have more numbers than ever. The 'big three' are still able to win at underage. It does not matter about them though as Bishopstown, Douglas, Na Piarsaigh, Sarsfields are challenging their hegemony. A good thing. In conclusion, to me, its not numbers or popularity that is our weakness. Quality seems to be big issue.

Regarding colleges: Certainly when the Mon and Farna were big schools, we won a lot more. Farna is closed down. The Mon has a quarter of the population that it had and half of those are now girls (it was all boys). Lads used to be concentrated in hurling schools. Now they are scattered all over the place. When the Mon was dominant, St Aidans, Glanmire CC, Knocknaheeny CC did not exist. Now they do and you three schools instead of 1.

To get to the root of our problems, one might ask why are we spending €80 million on redeveloping a stadium that will never be used when we have only a handful of coaches (two of which are in CIT and UCC) or games development officers?

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 02/10/2014 15:25:44    1659418

I can see why there might be an assumption that we'll be back. After all, as you've pointed out, the resources are definitely there. It's just a matter of getting it right. Alas, it's not quite that simple.

We have a county board who categorically deny that there's anything wrong. Even when all the evidence that you've cited is produced, they still refuse to even contemplate a problem. Consequently, they are making no serious effort whatsoever to solve the problem. Part of that is the strike's legacy. If Donal Og says that a sliotar is a round object, one of the old reliable members of CCB will appear in the Echo pointing out that it is in fact square. So in a nut shell, the problem is that we haven't officially admitted that we have a problem. Unfortunately I think it'll take the departure of a few of these old reliables (who, in fairness gave good service in the past) before we even get an admission of a problem.

For the GAA nationally this has the potential to become the single worst failure of their games development in 13 decades! By the time the problems in Cork are addressed, there's a very good chance that the love Cork city (in particular) has always had for hurling will have been diverted elsewhere - most likely football or soccer. Cork City FC are really getting their act together and growing crowds are beginning to pour through the turnstiles at Turner's Cross. So whilst the GAA has rightly spent significant funding on developing Dublin hurling, they have watched it fall away to a pale shadow of what it used to be in the second biggest urban area, and formerly the national stronghold of the game. Player numbers might be good now, but if we continue in our role as whipping boys, they'll fall away fairly quickly.

Of course nobody realises that the story is as bad as it is, because CCB will continue to issue denials and spin their substandard juvenile coaching set up as evidence of development. The reality is that Cork's success has been papering over cracks since Donal O Grady first pointed them out more than ten years ago. And to this day, the most significant development in Cork underage hurling was just recently announced by Tomas Mulcahy, Teddy Mac and others - independently of CCB. Sad but true. Cork hurling has never been lower, and there is no sign of a comeback.

Culchie (Cork) - Posts: 799 - 02/10/2014 15:42:58    1659425

When Donal Og was lambasting the Cork County Board on the Sunday Game recently and the general poor shape of hurling in the county,maybe he could have been gently reminded of the damage that he and his fellow strikers have caused.Damage that can be felt to this day.Nealy 10 years on.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 02/10/2014 15:58:10    1659436

the cork footballers were kind of in the opposite situation for a while..dominating u21 football yet they seem to find themselves in the same place as the hurlers?

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 02/10/2014 16:12:40    1659446

Bennybunny - fair enough, I'm there to be corrected as I'm not from Cork City and am no expert on matters there. However, I wasn't really pointing out numbers when I referred to the City's decline, I was referring to quality. What I see is that East Cork seems to be dominating the county championship for quite some time now (which I'm not saying is a bad thing) while the city appears to have been doing poorly. I would not have an issue with this, but it also seems to have coincided with a general decline accross the board in Cork hurling. I was simply wondering if the two were linked. In fairness, if your main source is running dry, then surely you're at a disadvantage straight away? I've felt that Limerick is punching above it's weight considering the main population centre isn't all that fussed about hurling. I know it's different in Cork City, where there always has been and still is a massive passion for hurling (I consider it the big hurling town in the country), but if there's an issue with quality then that's surely just as bad?

And what about the Cork County Board? I've had a very bad impression of them for years to be honest...

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 02/10/2014 16:31:35    1659464

An interesting point Culchie - I've been wondering for some time why there hasn't been more said of Cork's hurling failures over these past two decades or so (at some levels) at certain levels, and now at seemingly all levels. To think they haven't been in an under-21 FINAL for SIXTEEN years is remarkable! This is Cork we're talking about here!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 02/10/2014 16:38:19    1659471

All the Cork schools won yesterday on the first day of the Harty cup.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 02/10/2014 20:02:37    1659532

Apologies Charleville lost but that was to another Cork school. Half the Charleville team are probably from Kilmallock anyway.

Even though Cork haven't won anything at underage in a while they still have produced good teams and players like the 2007 minor team that lost to Tipp in the all-Ireland final after winning Munster.

It will be like waiting for buses, two or three titles will arrive one after the other when this run ends.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 02/10/2014 20:22:27    1659541

Nearly Killarney

Charleville lost but that was an all Cork game.

Intercounty underage is not also as shocking as may first appear. We have had some decent under 17 squads that have won their competitions. We won the Tony Forristal under 14 last year.

Culchie hit the nail on the head about the county board. A lot of petulant behaviour. Things move at a snails pace. During the last strike, lots of demands were made a few concessions were made. The players got their manager which quitened them- the horse had already bolted anyway-the county board's point was made in 2007. What happened in 2009 was just very very unfortunate.

There was a major overhaul of the underage structure at around that time as a result of all the mess. It was for the better but was very much cosmetic. Old boundaries were redrawn and new divisions were created with more fluid boundaries - this was an improvement. There are still some really bad competitions with a few teams and not enough games though. That is a problem. There are some improvements in coaching-there are some forums on. The current games development officers are spread very thinly though. That is an issue.

Being a dual county does not help. All clubs in the main population centres are going to be dual (even those at adult level that swing heavily to one code). Nothing we can do about that really given that players are likely to be doing rugby, soccer as well.

I agree with Culchie when he says that it would be national travesty if hurling is lost in Cork. I am not saying that because I am from there and because I would like to see us dominate at all levels (which are both probably true) but because the hurling community is small as it is and to lose its primary population centre would hurt the sport overall. I don't really worry too much about Cork City FC. They have a terrible history of beating themselves.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 02/10/2014 20:36:10    1659548

Treaty

I'm assuming you are a Limerick man so don't understand your worries,enjoy it while it lasts is what i'd say

someday (Limerick) - Posts: 1104 - 02/10/2014 20:50:16    1659555

I agree with Culchie when he says that it would be national travesty if hurling is lost in Cork. I am not saying that because I am from there and because I would like to see us dominate at all levels (which are both probably true) but because the hurling community is small as it is and to lose its primary population centre would hurt the sport overall.

I agree completely Bennybunny. Cork City has an incredible hurling heritage, the whole county does. The hurling landscape is small enough as it is, the last thing that needs to happen is further decline in one of the great hurling counties.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 02/10/2014 21:47:25    1659590

Not to worry lads. Kilkennys virtual monopolisation of the all Ireland will improve hurling in places like Cork.
For the life of me I cant figure out how, but thats what theyre all saying.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 04/10/2014 17:05:54    1660121

i went to the semi v tipp cork just were not up for it that day,not much wrong still good enough to challenge anyone on their day

elguapo (Meath) - Posts: 51 - 04/10/2014 20:45:31    1660190

Ha, on a thread about the current state of Cork hurling, I was wondering how long it would be before someone blamed it on Kilkenny and sure enough, 15 posts in, up steps jon carter.

I recall in the 90s when the likes of Offaly and Wexford were beating us up and down a stick every year, there was no one crying into their laptops or typewriters for us, we had to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps.

If Cork and Tipp shared the next 20 All Irelands between them, we'd still be playing hurling in Kilkenny, because that's what we do. If participation in other counties is dependent on the success or otherwise of their county team, then that's their problem, not ours.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 05/10/2014 10:08:56    1660263

Cork have a huge pick. They easily have 3 times the number of clubs and players. To be claiming an U 17 and U 14 title in last 5 6 or 8 years is a poor return with the sheer volume of numbers that they have.

Id say the relative success of football in Cork prob had an effect.

Id also say that counties like Waterford Clare and Limerick are putting more of an effort into coaching and into school competitions. I doubt there is any fear of hurling in Cork they just dont have things as easy now as they did in the past

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 05/10/2014 10:24:37    1660268

Anyone know who won between Glen and Douglas in the replay yesterday ?
Rebel GAA website seems to have drawn its last breath.

jerryp (Cork) - Posts: 104 - 05/10/2014 13:12:30    1660310

Glen won by 1 goal i think.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 05/10/2014 13:31:42    1660317