i know i am basing this on a match i saw last night but why do some counties who have success at underage find it so hard to turn it into senior success?
limerick and galway have had huge successes at underage,the sort that wexford,etc can only dream of for players at that age.we have not won a leinster minor title since 1985 yet won 3 u21 leinsters in the last 4 years,which is even more of a riddle.
why is it that they cant turn it into senior success?if you win 2-3 all-irelands at underage,would it satisfy most players,are players burnt out by the time they get to adulthood?
you would have to think that for the most part,a good young hurler will turn into a good adult hurler and while i know only 3-4 off every team will make it to the top teams,surely the laws of average turn the way of underage successful players?

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 23/06/2017 12:49:29    2003961

Only talking as a fan here but watching Limerick's minor & u21 hurlers over the past 35 years, there is a relaxation and freedom involved in watching them. Saw most of the U21 games from 2000-2002 and they were great social occasions as well as great hurling. When it comes to the Seniors there is this pressure involved in all our games. Have seen Limerick in the All-Ireland finals of 1994, 1996, 2007 and didn't particularly enjoy any of them, don't particularly enjoy watching our Seniors at all. I can only put it down to the monkey on the back of not having won the big one since 73. Win a NHL or Munster & the expectation & pressure grows. As we get older thoughts turn to if I'll ever see it and it is a bit of a millstone. At least if we won it once then we could always look back on it.

If it is like that for a fan, what is it like for a player, manager or official?

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 23/06/2017 13:15:36    2003978

I think you need to add Dublin to the list.
So many things need to go right for adult success.
Look in Wexford, Oulart had 1-2 exceptional underage teams, they have made up half of their club team for the past 15 years. They are all nearing the end. St. Martins have had incredible success at underage, and will take up Oulart's mantle now.
At inter county, it is a totally different ball game. The step up is absolutely massive from underage to senior inter county hurling. It is cutthroat, and some as slayer says can't handle the pressure, some thrive in it. There have been plenty of incredible underage hurlers in every county, who couldn't make the step up to adult hurling. It is nigh on impossible to get the balance right between confidence and swagger and ending up on your rear through over confidence.
Is there an element of underage success meaning you aren't as hungry for senior success? I doubt it, if anything it would make you want it more.
In the modern game, you also need the right manager to handle the underage success, the underage manager is not always the right man in spite of many in a county thinking he is. That is the really really hard part, because a career can be over before a county decides the wrong man was at the helm. Just look at Dublin hurlers.

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 23/06/2017 14:34:16    2004032

Also the simple answer is a senior team could be made up of the best players from 10 to 15 years u21 teams so one or two excellent u21 teams is unlikely to translate to senior success on their own. If you can drip feed 3 or 4 every year from u21 to senior squad you are doing well. Any more than that will dilute the overall quality of the senior team.

BaldyBadger (Cork) - Posts: 311 - 25/06/2017 08:49:58    2004622

janesboro (Limerick) - Posts: 1502 - 25/06/2017 23:47:18    2005252

Switching to football and to Cavan. .4 under 21 ulster finals in a row, winning 4 hasn't translated into a single ulster final appearance at senior level.

There are 2 obvious reasons to my mind and they are as follows:

1. Cavan out huge emphasis on underage success. We develop players to play a certain way from about the age of 15. The style of play that brought us so much success was a fairly defensive one which opponents found tough to counteract. At senior level, teams find a way to play against this system.

2. Carries on somewhat from point 1. We don't seem to have produced an outstanding scoring forward on any of these teams. You could say we cut our cloth to suit and it brought us success but in the long run, perhaps it has hurt us. Our senior panel is now full of very strong athletes, fit, fast and strong players. We have a few seriously gifted players like killian clarke, Cian Mackey, dara mcvitty and gearoid mckiernan (and had David Givney up to this year). But none of these are a scoring forwars who will guarentee 5 or 6 points from play every time we play.

We are somewhere between 7th and 12th IMO in terms of our ranking, and if you look at Monaghan in 6th and the teams above them - the thing that sets them apart is at least 1 quality scoring forward.
There's been plenty of niggle and banter on here over the past few weeks between Cavan and Monaghan fans, but without meaning to rile anyone up I will honestly say that I believe without Conor McManus, Monaghan would struggle in Division 2. A top scoring forward makes a world of difference!

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5010 - 26/06/2017 00:27:35    2005273

in galway we have lots of under age success in hurling and football
and yet despite many minor and under 21 titles were still waiting for senior all Ireland since 1987
in football we have been very good at under 21 and have had 3 good minor teams now in a row
were making progress at last with div one promotion
but theres one thing I found is that you need to get a really exceptional group of lads
to come off one of those underage teams to succeed
in galways case it happened in 1983 we won the minor and under 21 hurling all Ireland in the one year
out of those 2 teams we got 10 players that won galway the 1987 and 1988 all Ireland s senior
incredible really looking back now to get such a group of brilliant hurlers at the one time
in 1983 we won the minor all ire land on that team were john cummins , Gerry mc innerney ,pat Malone joe cooney, anthony cunnignham
this team then went on to win the under 21 in 1986 a year before senior in 1987
on the 1983 under 21 team we got Michael coleman ,Michael mc grath, Ollie killkenny, tony keady, peter finnerty
that was an amazing group of leaders and great hurlers all on two under age teams from 1983

rhudson (Galway) - Posts: 1478 - 26/06/2017 18:07:49    2005931

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4316 - 26/06/2017 23:20:30    2006098

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 27/06/2017 15:39:48    2006367