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Replying To billythekid69: "How long do you think coc would last on the field with extra ref?" As long as he lasts in all his games, why?
tommy132 (Mayo) - Posts: 600 - 11/10/2017 22:44:07
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Strange that had this year's final ended level after 73 minutes we would have been spared endless articles, tweets, posts and debates on cynical play.
It was a wonderful final but 90% of the coverage seems to focus on the last two minutes. The usual reaction seems to be in favour of introducing new rules, black ball, two refs, giving a 14m free/penalty for tactical fouling etc... how about the correct use of the existing rules first before introducing even more rules. The black card has merit but its application has been very inconsistent, my Dublin cousins joke that John Small's black card came thankfully a year too late.
With two well matched teams level in injury time the entire season hinged on which team could gain possession from restarts. Overall the ref got most calls right in normal time but made a crucial error in the closing minutes. When Dean Rock kicked Dublin ahead with his superb free kick the final result was to be decided on who could secure possession from the kick out. Mayo hoped that they could work it into a scoring position and Dublin could comfortably play 'keep ball' until the final whistle. As David Clarke kicked out two Mayo defenders were fouled and the referee blew and stopped play to issue cards to Kilkenny and Costello. He correctly allowed more time but instead of restarting with a free kick he ordered the kick out to be retaken. A team with an extra player have a better chance of retaining possession from a free kick from the hand than from a kick out. In summary Mayo were denied an opportunity to reply not from the absence of a black ball but from incorrect application of existing rules. There is no guarantee that Mayo would have equalised but it would have eliminated most of the post match friction.
Curlew66 (Roscommon) - Posts: 503 - 12/10/2017 02:09:00
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The best way to stop this cynical play would be to advance the play 50 metres from the point of the foul. Just like in australian rules. If you are closer to the opposition goals, take a 14 yard free kick.
If teams are punished 50m everytime they are cynical, it woulnt be long until teams stop it.
Personally im not a fan of Australian rules but I have seen this rule works wonders.
If a player concedes a foul and doesnt hand the ball to the opposition player immediately, it is punished by a 50m free.
This would also cut out a lot of the cynical time wasting.
Thoughts??
Steady_Eddie (Cavan) - Posts: 75 - 12/10/2017 10:13:12
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Replying To Curlew66: "Strange that had this year's final ended level after 73 minutes we would have been spared endless articles, tweets, posts and debates on cynical play.
It was a wonderful final but 90% of the coverage seems to focus on the last two minutes. The usual reaction seems to be in favour of introducing new rules, black ball, two refs, giving a 14m free/penalty for tactical fouling etc... how about the correct use of the existing rules first before introducing even more rules. The black card has merit but its application has been very inconsistent, my Dublin cousins joke that John Small's black card came thankfully a year too late.
With two well matched teams level in injury time the entire season hinged on which team could gain possession from restarts. Overall the ref got most calls right in normal time but made a crucial error in the closing minutes. When Dean Rock kicked Dublin ahead with his superb free kick the final result was to be decided on who could secure possession from the kick out. Mayo hoped that they could work it into a scoring position and Dublin could comfortably play 'keep ball' until the final whistle. As David Clarke kicked out two Mayo defenders were fouled and the referee blew and stopped play to issue cards to Kilkenny and Costello. He correctly allowed more time but instead of restarting with a free kick he ordered the kick out to be retaken. A team with an extra player have a better chance of retaining possession from a free kick from the hand than from a kick out. In summary Mayo were denied an opportunity to reply not from the absence of a black ball but from incorrect application of existing rules. There is no guarantee that Mayo would have equalised but it would have eliminated most of the post match friction." As far as I know if the referee judges the foul the have happened before the game has restarted then he is right in not awarding a free to Mayo. As Dublin didn't foul as much as stopped the restart.
Could be wrong on that but.
At the end of the day it was cynical play that was dealt with by the referee in giving the cards out and reducing Dublin to 13 players for the next restart. Mayo really should have secured possession from their kick out with their numerical advantage. The ref added on the time too. Dublin didn't really gain anything by the cynical fouling only through Clarke's error could we claim that it "worked." The dragging down was a mistake from the Dublin players that thankfully for them was not capitalised upon by Mayo, as in if the Dublin players were close enough to foul their men they were close enough to have them marked for the initial kick out.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 12/10/2017 10:58:48
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Replying To Curlew66: "Strange that had this year's final ended level after 73 minutes we would have been spared endless articles, tweets, posts and debates on cynical play.
It was a wonderful final but 90% of the coverage seems to focus on the last two minutes. The usual reaction seems to be in favour of introducing new rules, black ball, two refs, giving a 14m free/penalty for tactical fouling etc... how about the correct use of the existing rules first before introducing even more rules. The black card has merit but its application has been very inconsistent, my Dublin cousins joke that John Small's black card came thankfully a year too late.
With two well matched teams level in injury time the entire season hinged on which team could gain possession from restarts. Overall the ref got most calls right in normal time but made a crucial error in the closing minutes. When Dean Rock kicked Dublin ahead with his superb free kick the final result was to be decided on who could secure possession from the kick out. Mayo hoped that they could work it into a scoring position and Dublin could comfortably play 'keep ball' until the final whistle. As David Clarke kicked out two Mayo defenders were fouled and the referee blew and stopped play to issue cards to Kilkenny and Costello. He correctly allowed more time but instead of restarting with a free kick he ordered the kick out to be retaken. A team with an extra player have a better chance of retaining possession from a free kick from the hand than from a kick out. In summary Mayo were denied an opportunity to reply not from the absence of a black ball but from incorrect application of existing rules. There is no guarantee that Mayo would have equalised but it would have eliminated most of the post match friction." If the ref had issued 3 black cards to the Dublin players pulling their man to the ground, this is also known as applying the rules, then Mayo would have engineered an equalising score. And then Dublin would have won the replay....by a point!
FootblockREF (Monaghan) - Posts: 563 - 12/10/2017 11:16:52
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Replying To MesAmis: "As far as I know if the referee judges the foul the have happened before the game has restarted then he is right in not awarding a free to Mayo. As Dublin didn't foul as much as stopped the restart.
Could be wrong on that but.
At the end of the day it was cynical play that was dealt with by the referee in giving the cards out and reducing Dublin to 13 players for the next restart. Mayo really should have secured possession from their kick out with their numerical advantage. The ref added on the time too. Dublin didn't really gain anything by the cynical fouling only through Clarke's error could we claim that it "worked." The dragging down was a mistake from the Dublin players that thankfully for them was not capitalised upon by Mayo, as in if the Dublin players were close enough to foul their men they were close enough to have them marked for the initial kick out." Yes, looking back goalkeeper Clarke had options of a free man to his left and in the centre but opted to go right and over the side line.
The referee blew the whistle when the first kick out was in flight and probably could have restarted with a free. It doesn't matter now but I thought Id mention it as it hasn't been raised by anyone in the post final debate.
In fairness the referee got most calls/cards correct in normal time and all the controversy seems to be focused on the last two minutes. We are great at proposing new rules at a time when referees are struggling to consistently apply the existing rules.
Curlew66 (Roscommon) - Posts: 503 - 12/10/2017 11:49:55
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If the ref had issued 3 black cards to the Dublin players pulling their man to the ground, this is also known as applying the rules, then Mayo would have engineered an equalising score. And then Dublin would have won the replay....by a point!
FootblockREF (Monaghan) - Posts:83 - 12/10/2017 11:16:52
Which other Dublin players dragged their Mayo counterparts to the ground besides Kilkenny?
Costello got a yellow because he was clever enough to not drag the player down merely hold onto him, stupid that that isn't a black but that's the stupid black card rules for you. Dean Rock did a bit of pushing but didn't drag anyone down from my memory.
I can't remember who else did the dragging down.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 12/10/2017 11:50:19
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If the ref had issued 3 black cards to the Dublin players pulling their man to the ground, this is also known as applying the rules, then Mayo would have engineered an equalising score. And then Dublin would have won the replay....by a point!
FootblockREF (Monaghan) - Posts:83 - 12/10/2017 11:16:52
Which other Dublin players dragged their Mayo counterparts to the ground besides Kilkenny?
Costello got a yellow because he was clever enough to not drag the player down merely hold onto him, stupid that that isn't a black but that's the stupid black card rules for you. Dean Rock did a bit of pushing but didn't drag anyone down from my memory.
I can't remember who else did the dragging down.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 12/10/2017 11:50:52
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Replying To MesAmis: "If the ref had issued 3 black cards to the Dublin players pulling their man to the ground, this is also known as applying the rules, then Mayo would have engineered an equalising score. And then Dublin would have won the replay....by a point!
FootblockREF (Monaghan) - Posts:83 - 12/10/2017 11:16:52
Which other Dublin players dragged their Mayo counterparts to the ground besides Kilkenny?
Costello got a yellow because he was clever enough to not drag the player down merely hold onto him, stupid that that isn't a black but that's the stupid black card rules for you. Dean Rock did a bit of pushing but didn't drag anyone down from my memory.
I can't remember who else did the dragging down." clever!!! cynical more like
maigheoabu2016 (Mayo) - Posts: 17 - 12/10/2017 12:41:05
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You can be clever and cynical too!
He was a lot cleverer than Kilkenny was in anyways.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 12/10/2017 13:16:29
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The "black ball" is not a bad shout, to remove cynical play you have to properly disincentivise it, I don't think the black card always does that given the number of subs that are now allowed during a game. If every cynical challenge had a high chance of being penalised by a score I'm sure you would see the incidence of cynical play reduced. However, defining and policing it would be a whole other matter.
NotQuiteGravy (UK) - Posts: 21 - 12/10/2017 15:25:36
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Why has this turned into another Mayo V Dub thread?? Have we not flogged this one to death already?
Chops (Westmeath) - Posts: 775 - 15/10/2017 12:19:28
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What is a 'cynical' foul anyways? Unless it's an accidental foul, which is hard to determine, surely nearly all fouls are committed to unfairly gain an advantage and they're cynical.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7335 - 15/10/2017 14:44:53
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