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Over the summer there was a lot of media talk about the back door system and it's positives and negatives .
A lot of talk about the imbalance of the provisial championship bla,bla.
The reality is the back door system was brought in so that counties players who put their life on hold for 6/7 months would get more than one game in the championship.
I am a provisional championship believer . A simple fix and a better championship would be for each province to have it's own round robin competition with the provincial finalists going into the quarter finals in the same format as this year ,
Ulster
2 groups with the winner of each group playing in the final(bring London or NY into ulster)
min 4 championship games
Leinster
2 groups with the winner of each group playing in the final
min 5 championship games
Connaught
1 group with the top 2 teams playing in the final(without London or NY)
min 5 championship games
Munster
1 group with the top 2 teams playing in the final
min 5 championship games
Positives
Meets the reason for the back door which is to provide more championship football to these players
You can level the playing field with regards to championship start and finish dates as they with the exception of Ulster all have to play 5 games before the Provincial final
Quality teams will rise to the top which is what the game needs
Second tier competition can still be accomadated with the third place teams going into that
With this format and with everyone in the same boat you could condense the round robin element to be played from 1st may to the end of June, 8 weeks to play at most 5 matches , so going into July 8 teams are still in the championship , all the rest can kick off their club championship schedule.
As for the 8 teams that are left they have JulyAugust to play provincial final/ Quarters / Semi's ignoring replays this is 8 weeks to play 3 games so they should all be made to play atleast 2 rounds of their club championship.
Club players are treated with a bit more respect than they are right now
Also the fans have less travel for matches as they are staying in their own province until quarter final time.
PS all club league matches should go ahead in all counties regardless of intercounty players being available. As I have yet to meet a club player who talks about all his league medals it is championship that matters to them.
any thoughts .
ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 259 - 17/10/2016 14:52:30
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This is one of the only proposals I have seen that wants to retain the provincial championships. I don't think the provincials are going to be done away with any time soon so it is a great idea to come up with alternatives that include them. I quite like this idea, anything would be better than the current format.
I guess the downside would be that it doesn't address the lack of competitiveness in some provinces, for example Dublin are still going to win Leinster comfotably. Anybody think it would be a good idea to have Dublin play in another province, at least it would allow the other Leinster counties to battle it out with a realistic chance of winning.
Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1873 - 17/10/2016 15:52:02
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Replying To ulsterrules: "Over the summer there was a lot of media talk about the back door system and it's positives and negatives .
A lot of talk about the imbalance of the provisial championship bla,bla.
The reality is the back door system was brought in so that counties players who put their life on hold for 6/7 months would get more than one game in the championship.
I am a provisional championship believer . A simple fix and a better championship would be for each province to have it's own round robin competition with the provincial finalists going into the quarter finals in the same format as this year ,
Ulster
2 groups with the winner of each group playing in the final(bring London or NY into ulster)
min 4 championship games
Leinster
2 groups with the winner of each group playing in the final
min 5 championship games
Connaught
1 group with the top 2 teams playing in the final(without London or NY)
min 5 championship games
Munster
1 group with the top 2 teams playing in the final
min 5 championship games
Positives
Meets the reason for the back door which is to provide more championship football to these players
You can level the playing field with regards to championship start and finish dates as they with the exception of Ulster all have to play 5 games before the Provincial final
Quality teams will rise to the top which is what the game needs
Second tier competition can still be accomadated with the third place teams going into that
With this format and with everyone in the same boat you could condense the round robin element to be played from 1st may to the end of June, 8 weeks to play at most 5 matches , so going into July 8 teams are still in the championship , all the rest can kick off their club championship schedule.
As for the 8 teams that are left they have JulyAugust to play provincial final/ Quarters / Semi's ignoring replays this is 8 weeks to play 3 games so they should all be made to play atleast 2 rounds of their club championship.
Club players are treated with a bit more respect than they are right now
Also the fans have less travel for matches as they are staying in their own province until quarter final time.
PS all club league matches should go ahead in all counties regardless of intercounty players being available. As I have yet to meet a club player who talks about all his league medals it is championship that matters to them.
any thoughts ." I agree that a group system for the provincial championships would be a better system than the qualifiers.
The specifics of your format would have a decent number of dead rubber matches which wouldn't be ideal.
I've a feeling the Ulster council would be a stumbling block to these sorts of plans. They'd like to keep their championship format as is.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 17/10/2016 16:06:24
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The New York one is the one that I think throws a spanner into the works.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 17/10/2016 16:46:15
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Replying To ulsterrules: "Over the summer there was a lot of media talk about the back door system and it's positives and negatives .
A lot of talk about the imbalance of the provisial championship bla,bla.
The reality is the back door system was brought in so that counties players who put their life on hold for 6/7 months would get more than one game in the championship.
I am a provisional championship believer . A simple fix and a better championship would be for each province to have it's own round robin competition with the provincial finalists going into the quarter finals in the same format as this year ,
Ulster
2 groups with the winner of each group playing in the final(bring London or NY into ulster)
min 4 championship games
Leinster
2 groups with the winner of each group playing in the final
min 5 championship games
Connaught
1 group with the top 2 teams playing in the final(without London or NY)
min 5 championship games
Munster
1 group with the top 2 teams playing in the final
min 5 championship games
Positives
Meets the reason for the back door which is to provide more championship football to these players
You can level the playing field with regards to championship start and finish dates as they with the exception of Ulster all have to play 5 games before the Provincial final
Quality teams will rise to the top which is what the game needs
Second tier competition can still be accomadated with the third place teams going into that
With this format and with everyone in the same boat you could condense the round robin element to be played from 1st may to the end of June, 8 weeks to play at most 5 matches , so going into July 8 teams are still in the championship , all the rest can kick off their club championship schedule.
As for the 8 teams that are left they have JulyAugust to play provincial final/ Quarters / Semi's ignoring replays this is 8 weeks to play 3 games so they should all be made to play atleast 2 rounds of their club championship.
Club players are treated with a bit more respect than they are right now
Also the fans have less travel for matches as they are staying in their own province until quarter final time.
PS all club league matches should go ahead in all counties regardless of intercounty players being available. As I have yet to meet a club player who talks about all his league medals it is championship that matters to them.
any thoughts ." It doesn't address the issue of inequality within the provincial system, i.e. in your system, you have 10 teams in Ulster, 12 in Leinster, 6 in Connacht and 6 in Munster. It's not fair on teams from Ulster and Leinster.
Trying to explain the GAA championship structure to someone who has no background in the game is an impossible task.
I agree that the Provincials are going nowhere and I agree that this is a better alternative to what we have but we just need to get it through to the powers that be that the Provincials have to go.
The key for the provinces is the money they earn from their Provincial competitions so it is up to Central Council to develop a structure that would cover any financial shortfall arising from removing the current structure. This I believe is an easy obstacle to overcome given some of the other options being proposed, e.g. 8 groups of 4 (maybe put NY in a group to make 1 group of 5), leading into Last 16 A comp and Last 16 B comp.
bal2012 (Cavan) - Posts: 6 - 17/10/2016 16:47:59
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It's definitely worth a try. It couldn't be any worse than the system we are all stuck using now.
One major detail that you included that is most often left out of these threads is the club championship which is the real GAA. Looking after the needs of the club is at a crisis stage. We should all sit up and do something before it is too late. A lot of young lads won't be long taking up other sports. Training like lunatics all spring to sit around all summer does not add up.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 17/10/2016 16:52:09
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Replying To gotmilk: "The New York one is the one that I think throws a spanner into the works." I think they need to abandon the NY game.
At some point someone will muck up and lose to them and they probably won't be able to fulfill the next fixture.
It's silly to not update our own structures for the sake of 1 game.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 17/10/2016 16:54:58
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Replying To ulsterrules: "Over the summer there was a lot of media talk about the back door system and it's positives and negatives .
A lot of talk about the imbalance of the provisial championship bla,bla.
The reality is the back door system was brought in so that counties players who put their life on hold for 6/7 months would get more than one game in the championship.
I am a provisional championship believer . A simple fix and a better championship would be for each province to have it's own round robin competition with the provincial finalists going into the quarter finals in the same format as this year ,
Ulster
2 groups with the winner of each group playing in the final(bring London or NY into ulster)
min 4 championship games
Leinster
2 groups with the winner of each group playing in the final
min 5 championship games
Connaught
1 group with the top 2 teams playing in the final(without London or NY)
min 5 championship games
Munster
1 group with the top 2 teams playing in the final
min 5 championship games
Positives
Meets the reason for the back door which is to provide more championship football to these players
You can level the playing field with regards to championship start and finish dates as they with the exception of Ulster all have to play 5 games before the Provincial final
Quality teams will rise to the top which is what the game needs
Second tier competition can still be accomadated with the third place teams going into that
With this format and with everyone in the same boat you could condense the round robin element to be played from 1st may to the end of June, 8 weeks to play at most 5 matches , so going into July 8 teams are still in the championship , all the rest can kick off their club championship schedule.
As for the 8 teams that are left they have JulyAugust to play provincial final/ Quarters / Semi's ignoring replays this is 8 weeks to play 3 games so they should all be made to play atleast 2 rounds of their club championship.
Club players are treated with a bit more respect than they are right now
Also the fans have less travel for matches as they are staying in their own province until quarter final time.
PS all club league matches should go ahead in all counties regardless of intercounty players being available. As I have yet to meet a club player who talks about all his league medals it is championship that matters to them.
any thoughts ." Oh no not another round robin proposal. And in the provincial championships as well!!!! Oh saints above preserve us!
mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 17/10/2016 21:53:52
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Replying To Whammo86: "I agree that a group system for the provincial championships would be a better system than the qualifiers.
The specifics of your format would have a decent number of dead rubber matches which wouldn't be ideal.
I've a feeling the Ulster council would be a stumbling block to these sorts of plans. They'd like to keep their championship format as is." My first thought here was - is Wham being plagiarised ? :)
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 17/10/2016 22:05:06
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Currently, it is quite unfair that 4 Muns/Conn teams get byes to their Prov SFs with guaranteed berths in Qual Rd 2 (effectively, the AI Last 24) - while 16 other teams, mostly Lein/Uls face elimination in Rd 1. To put the bye teams and 1st Rd Qual teams on an equal footing for the AI Last 24, both should be req'd to either, win its next match (SF or 1st Rd, 16 winners), with the 16 losers entering a common last chance thereafter to determine the remaining 8 to go thru (with the initial 8 eliminated). Therefore, in the AI Last 24, a 20-team Qual Rd could be played concurrently with a 4-team Prov Champs Rd (as opposed to the current, 16 teams and 8-team Prov Finals, respectively).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 17/10/2016 22:21:04
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Scrap early season Mickey Mouse cups
Cut national league to groups of 3 top divisions of 6 and 2 bottom divisions of 7
Run off national football league in Feb and March
Also play sigerson cup in Feb and march without county players
Leave April and May for hurling league and/or u21 football
Run off seeded provincial championships in June
July for all Ireland qualifiers - top 8 (2 groups of 4) play for 2 semi final spots and 2 qfinal spots - bottom 24 play for 2qfinal spots (8 groups of 3 playoffs down to 2)
August for q finals and semis
All Ireland final first week in September.
Alternatively get rid of provincials and finish whole thing on Agust bank holiday weekend leaving August and September for clubs
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1103 - 18/10/2016 04:22:11
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Replying To Donegalman: "It's definitely worth a try. It couldn't be any worse than the system we are all stuck using now.
One major detail that you included that is most often left out of these threads is the club championship which is the real GAA. Looking after the needs of the club is at a crisis stage. We should all sit up and do something before it is too late. A lot of young lads won't be long taking up other sports. Training like lunatics all spring to sit around all summer does not add up." Yeh, county season should end earlier. I'd say August bank holiday for the football final. Allows teams 9/10 weeks to get a proper county championship played.
I'd also agree club leagues should go ahead without county players.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 18/10/2016 09:00:13
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It wouldn't be my first choice but I think it's better than the current system. I will never understand why the preseason has so many more matches than the championship. American football has 4 preseason games, then 16 regular season games and then 4 rounds of playoffs to decide the champion. Soccer they play a Mickey Mouse cup in China or America and then play a 38 game season, and more games if you've qualified for Europe. In Gaelic you play between 10 and 14 preseason games and between 2 and 7 championship games. The league and championship should be connected to make the league matter.
DBo183 (USA) - Posts: 16 - 18/10/2016 20:31:08
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Replying To DBo183: "It wouldn't be my first choice but I think it's better than the current system. I will never understand why the preseason has so many more matches than the championship. American football has 4 preseason games, then 16 regular season games and then 4 rounds of playoffs to decide the champion. Soccer they play a Mickey Mouse cup in China or America and then play a 38 game season, and more games if you've qualified for Europe. In Gaelic you play between 10 and 14 preseason games and between 2 and 7 championship games. The league and championship should be connected to make the league matter." It's a throw back to a time when travelling to games was tricky, so they made sure the games were all well spread out.
The GAA needs to do away with it now though and move with the times.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 18/10/2016 22:59:13
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Scrap early season Mickey Mouse cups
Cut national league to groups of 3 top divisions of 6 and 2 bottom divisions of 7
Run off national football league in Feb and March
Also play sigerson cup in Feb and march without county players
Leave April and May for hurling league and/or u21 football
Run off seeded provincial championships in June
July for all Ireland qualifiers - top 8 (2 groups of 4) play for 2 semi final spots and 2 qfinal spots - bottom 24 play for 2qfinal spots (8 groups of 3 playoffs down to 2)
August for q finals and semis
All Ireland final first week in September.
Alternatively get rid of provincials and finish whole thing on Agust bank holiday weekend leaving August and September for clubs" Too many games of little importance e.g league play-offs, the Byrne cup etc. Maybe have a league 1 final and leave it at that, they had a good attendance at the Div 1 final. Division 2 of the football is exciting with teams vying to get into Div 1. A lot of posts on the hoganstand in regards to Div 2 football.
crikey (Australia) - Posts: 355 - 19/10/2016 00:55:33
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Replying To DBo183: "It wouldn't be my first choice but I think it's better than the current system. I will never understand why the preseason has so many more matches than the championship. American football has 4 preseason games, then 16 regular season games and then 4 rounds of playoffs to decide the champion. Soccer they play a Mickey Mouse cup in China or America and then play a 38 game season, and more games if you've qualified for Europe. In Gaelic you play between 10 and 14 preseason games and between 2 and 7 championship games. The league and championship should be connected to make the league matter." Is mine better ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 19/10/2016 02:42:25
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Positives
Meets the reason for the back door which is to provide more championship football to these players
You can level the playing field with regards to championship start and finish dates as they with the exception of Ulster all have to play 5 games before the Provincial final
Quality teams will rise to the top which is what the game needs
Second tier competition can still be accomadated with the third place teams going into that
With this format and with everyone in the same boat you could condense the round robin element to be played from 1st may to the end of June, 8 weeks to play at most 5 matches, so going into July 8 teams are still in the championship, all the rest can kick off their club championship schedule.
As for the 8 teams that are left they have JulyAugust to play provincial final/ Quarters / Semi's ignoring replays this is 8 weeks to play 3 games so they should all be made to play atleast 2 rounds of their club championship.
Club players are treated with a bit more respect than they are right now
Also the fans have less travel for matches as they are staying in their own province until quarter final time.
PS all club league matches should go ahead in all counties regardless of intercounty players being available. As I have yet to meet a club player who talks about all his league medals it is championship that matters to them.
any thoughts .
ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts:19 - 17/10/2016 14:52:30 Not bad proposal but it removes a lot of counties games against sides from outside their own province which has been a great boost to championship....
This is one of the only proposals I have seen that wants to retain the provincial championships. I don't think the provincials are going to be done away with any time soon so it is a great idea to come up with alternatives that include them. I quite like this idea, anything would be better than the current format.
I guess the downside would be that it doesn't address the lack of competitiveness in some provinces, for example Dublin are still going to win Leinster comfotably. Anybody think it would be a good idea to have Dublin play in another province, at least it would allow the other Leinster counties to battle it out with a realistic chance of winning.
Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts:397 - 17/10/2016 15:52:02 Or change the role the provincial championships have on the race for Sam.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 20/10/2016 13:02:28
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I agree that the Provincials are going nowhere and I agree that this is a better alternative to what we have but we just need to get it through to the powers that be that the Provincials have to go.
The key for the provinces is the money they earn from their Provincial competitions so it is up to Central Council to develop a structure that would cover any financial shortfall arising from removing the current structure. This I believe is an easy obstacle to overcome given some of the other options being proposed, e.g. 8 groups of 4 (maybe put NY in a group to make 1 group of 5), leading into Last 16 A comp and Last 16 B comp.
bal2012 (Cavan) - Posts:6 - 17/10/2016 16:47:59Provincial championships should be kept regardless of what happens. Make them stand alone cups with winners getting a place in last 12 of all Ireland if they dont qualify from a group based comp.
You could have 8 groups of 4 with top 8 qualifying for quarters and if provincial winners haven't qualified for last 8 they have a playoff with a 2nd placed group team or similar...
It's definitely worth a try. It couldn't be any worse than the system we are all stuck using now.
One major detail that you included that is most often left out of these threads is the club championship which is the real GAA. Looking after the needs of the club is at a crisis stage. We should all sit up and do something before it is too late. A lot of young lads won't be long taking up other sports. Training like lunatics all spring to sit around all summer does not add up.
Donegalman (All) - Posts:2641 - 17/10/2016 16:52:09 Very easy. Just force county boards not to stop or order stopping of club championship games in summer and penalise county boards and potentially funding of county team if they do try stop club games.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 20/10/2016 13:03:34
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Scrap early season Mickey Mouse cups. cut national league to groups of 3 top divisions of 6 and 2 bottom divisions of 7
Run off national football league in Feb and March. so play sigerson cup in Feb and march without county players. Leave April and May for hurling league and/or u21 football. Run off seeded provincial championships in June
July for all Ireland qualifiers - top 8 (2 groups of 4) play for 2 semi final spots and 2 qfinal spots - bottom 24 play for 2qfinal spots (8 groups of 3 playoffs down to 2). August for q finals and semis. All Ireland final first week in September.
Alternatively get rid of provincials and finish whole thing on Agust bank holiday weekend leaving August and September for clubs
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts:598 - 18/10/2016 04:22:11The early season leagues/cups are warm up games for the league. if you remove them counties will still be playing games so why remove them? Why play hurling and gaelic leagues at different times?
There is plenty of counties that manage to fit in club games through the summer regardless of how county teams are going. Tipp do it. And they have had issues with getting teams as county reps for provincial club championships simply because they've too many senior clubs not anything else
It wouldn't be my first choice but I think it's better than the current system. I will never understand why the preseason has so many more matches than the championship. American football has 4 preseason games, then 16 regular season games and then 4 rounds of playoffs to decide the champion. Soccer they play a Mickey Mouse cup in China or America and then play a 38 game season, and more games if you've qualified for Europe. In Gaelic you play between 10 and 14 preseason games and between 2 and 7 championship games. The league and championship should be connected to make the league matter.
DBo183 (USA) - Posts:16 - 18/10/2016 20:31:08But gaelic doesn't have 10-14 pre season games and that mindset doesn't do anything in terms of promoting the sport which mediaman has a love for criticising RTE. The national leagues are not pre season games and the championship should have a league format be that small round robin groups or other ways
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 20/10/2016 13:04:00
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