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Genuinely feel the GAA championship in football has lost its spark because of the draws being pre-determined. Feel it should be like the FA CUP/Champions league open draws all the time. Obviously Provincial champions cant play each other or provincial finalist don't play again at least to semis. Wont highlight anybody but Kerry last few years have had it easy in all fairness in Q F.
OH yes and I know its all about preventing burn out and giving teams a fair chance but sure both rugby and soccer players often play 3 games in 7-8 days. Often same with the ordinary GAA club player. Any comments?
222 (UK) - Posts: 691 - 23/07/2016 20:30:51
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This is discussed on here weekly. It wont change sadly. The GAA is run by old men like in golf and change is a word they find hard to understand.
DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 23/07/2016 20:38:04
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Replying To 222: "Genuinely feel the GAA championship in football has lost its spark because of the draws being pre-determined. Feel it should be like the FA CUP/Champions league open draws all the time. Obviously Provincial champions cant play each other or provincial finalist don't play again at least to semis. Wont highlight anybody but Kerry last few years have had it easy in all fairness in Q F.
OH yes and I know its all about preventing burn out and giving teams a fair chance but sure both rugby and soccer players often play 3 games in 7-8 days. Often same with the ordinary GAA club player. Any comments?" It's needed for scheduling.
I don't mind the draw being predetermined either. You get to look down the line and predict how things are going to pan out.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4208 - 23/07/2016 20:40:52
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Genuinely feel the GAA championship in football has lost its spark because of the draws being pre-determined. Feel it should be like the FA CUP/Champions league open draws all the time. Obviously Provincial champions cant play each other or provincial finalist don't play again at least to semis. Wont highlight anybody but Kerry last few years have had it easy in all fairness in Q F.
OH yes and I know its all about preventing burn out and giving teams a fair chance but sure both rugby and soccer players often play 3 games in 7-8 days. Often same with the ordinary GAA club player. Any comments?
222 (UK) - Posts:342 - 23/07/2016 20:30:51 When you say soccer and rugby I assume you are talking about the top level and those guys are professional so can play a high number of games in 7/8 days as they don't have work commitments unlike GAA players and club players only do it because they have to because the GAA/clubs themselves cant work a system where they give players a regularised set season and some counties are forced to rush their club championship to meet demands to play provincial club championships
I would rather the main competition teams play in be a league with cup formats on the side. the cup which would be straight knock out and no replays could be for Liam/Sam if you wanted and league could be for league trophy but this would give all players a proper set season and allow the club season be organised and ran better countrywide as well.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 23/07/2016 20:43:49
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We have had it so easy we only beat 2 other Q Finalists to get to last 8.
Actually I'd say that is probably the first time that has ever happened since the QF's were introduced
KYTitletown (Kerry) - Posts: 816 - 23/07/2016 21:16:32
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Replying To KYTitletown: "We have had it so easy we only beat 2 other Q Finalists to get to last 8.
Actually I'd say that is probably the first time that has ever happened since the QF's were introduced" It's a funny one alright. Beat 2 fellow quarter-finalists to get to that stage and some will consider you lucky!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7822 - 23/07/2016 21:58:17
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Potential paths to Semi Final
Kerry = Clare, Tipp and Clare Again!!! = 3 Games
Donegal = Fermanagh, Monaghan x 2, Tyrone. Cork, Dublin = 6 Games
Dublin = Laois, Meath, W'Meath, Donegal = 4 Games
Tyrone = Derry, Cavan x 2, Donegal, Mayo = 5 Games
Galway = Mayo, Roscommon x 2, Tipperary = 4 Games
Mayo = Galway, Fermanagh, Kildare, Westmeath, Tyrone = 5 Games
No further explanation needed me thinks!!
jacktheDub (Dublin) - Posts: 944 - 23/07/2016 22:24:22
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Replying To jacktheDub: "Potential paths to Semi Final
Kerry = Clare, Tipp and Clare Again!!! = 3 Games
Donegal = Fermanagh, Monaghan x 2, Tyrone. Cork, Dublin = 6 Games
Dublin = Laois, Meath, W'Meath, Donegal = 4 Games
Tyrone = Derry, Cavan x 2, Donegal, Mayo = 5 Games
Galway = Mayo, Roscommon x 2, Tipperary = 4 Games
Mayo = Galway, Fermanagh, Kildare, Westmeath, Tyrone = 5 Games
No further explanation needed me thinks!!" Ok. Galway had a replay. They started off in a provincial semi-final like we did. Munster and Connacht have less than 8 teams.
Leinster semi-finalists from last year were seeded to avoid each other in the quarter-final draw.
3 provincial championship rounds is ideal preparation ahead of the All-Ireland series. Ulster opt against a seeding system. It's their provincial finalists could be in the preliminary round in the following year but it's what they want.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7822 - 23/07/2016 22:38:07
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Replying To ormondbannerman: "Genuinely feel the GAA championship in football has lost its spark because of the draws being pre-determined. Feel it should be like the FA CUP/Champions league open draws all the time. Obviously Provincial champions cant play each other or provincial finalist don't play again at least to semis. Wont highlight anybody but Kerry last few years have had it easy in all fairness in Q F.
OH yes and I know its all about preventing burn out and giving teams a fair chance but sure both rugby and soccer players often play 3 games in 7-8 days. Often same with the ordinary GAA club player. Any comments?
222 (UK) - Posts:342 - 23/07/2016 20:30:51 When you say soccer and rugby I assume you are talking about the top level and those guys are professional so can play a high number of games in 7/8 days as they don't have work commitments unlike GAA players and club players only do it because they have to because the GAA/clubs themselves cant work a system where they give players a regularised set season and some counties are forced to rush their club championship to meet demands to play provincial club championships
I would rather the main competition teams play in be a league with cup formats on the side. the cup which would be straight knock out and no replays could be for Liam/Sam if you wanted and league could be for league trophy but this would give all players a proper set season and allow the club season be organised and ran better countrywide as well." Good post.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 23/07/2016 22:50:00
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Replying To jacktheDub: "Potential paths to Semi Final
Kerry = Clare, Tipp and Clare Again!!! = 3 Games
Donegal = Fermanagh, Monaghan x 2, Tyrone. Cork, Dublin = 6 Games
Dublin = Laois, Meath, W'Meath, Donegal = 4 Games
Tyrone = Derry, Cavan x 2, Donegal, Mayo = 5 Games
Galway = Mayo, Roscommon x 2, Tipperary = 4 Games
Mayo = Galway, Fermanagh, Kildare, Westmeath, Tyrone = 5 Games
No further explanation needed me thinks!!" Don't forget, Mayo had to play London... :)
MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 414 - 23/07/2016 23:24:44
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Replying To bennybunny: " Replying To ormondbannerman: "Genuinely feel the GAA championship in football has lost its spark because of the draws being pre-determined. Feel it should be like the FA CUP/Champions league open draws all the time. Obviously Provincial champions cant play each other or provincial finalist don't play again at least to semis. Wont highlight anybody but Kerry last few years have had it easy in all fairness in Q F.
OH yes and I know its all about preventing burn out and giving teams a fair chance but sure both rugby and soccer players often play 3 games in 7-8 days. Often same with the ordinary GAA club player. Any comments?
222 (UK) - Posts:342 - 23/07/2016 20:30:51 When you say soccer and rugby I assume you are talking about the top level and those guys are professional so can play a high number of games in 7/8 days as they don't have work commitments unlike GAA players and club players only do it because they have to because the GAA/clubs themselves cant work a system where they give players a regularised set season and some counties are forced to rush their club championship to meet demands to play provincial club championships
I would rather the main competition teams play in be a league with cup formats on the side. the cup which would be straight knock out and no replays could be for Liam/Sam if you wanted and league could be for league trophy but this would give all players a proper set season and allow the club season be organised and ran better countrywide as well." Good post."
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 24/07/2016 01:33:15
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Article says it all
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kerrys-farcical-allireland-semifinal-route-highlights-the-absurdity-of-the-football-championship-34906958.html
jacktheDub (Dublin) - Posts: 944 - 24/07/2016 10:56:04
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The championship structures are unbalanced, but handy draws can pan out in any knockout competition when shocks happen.
League based championship won't work. Can't have dead rubber matches at the end of the season, keeping players away from clubs when the county team are out of contention.
Everything I read keeps talking of the likes of Cavan and Derry as being superior to Clare and Tipp.
I don't really see what they're basing that on.
League results? Its definitely very much second fiddle in teams priorities to championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4208 - 24/07/2016 11:49:48
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Thank you Whammo for laying it out in black and white terms.
A few questions for the begrudgers.
1. Do Cavan and Derry have a divine right to get to the QF as opposed to proving it on the field of play.
2. Do people think Kerry would actually be afraid of playing Derry, Cavan or Roscommon
3. If Clare and Tipp are so terrible what does it say for the provinces who failed to stop them getting to last 8?
KYTitletown (Kerry) - Posts: 816 - 24/07/2016 12:03:46
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This would be my idea for a championship structure..
1.Scrap the qualifiers
2.Keep the pro championships.
Ulster/Leinster
Have two groups,were teams play each other once.The winners from each group go into the Ulster/Leinster Final.The Ulster/Leinster champions go through to the All-Ireland semi final.In otherwords Tyrone win their group and Donegal win the other group,they then meet in the decider.Dublin win their group and Kildare win their group then they meet in the decider.
Connacht/Munster
Have one group in each province.Play each other once.The top two into the provincial final.The winners then go into the All-Ireland semi final.
This way we still get a lot of games and keep the provincial comps.When we get to the pro finals,it is then knock out,you must win to progress and then we have the old way of having one team from each province in the All-Ireland semis.In the group stages you will still get a lot of good games.Some will say some games will not matter near the end.But no system will be perfect.At least teams would train hard and even if they don't get to the final they know they can play quite a few games.
ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 24/07/2016 12:23:35
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I like the idea of the A and B halves to the draw, as it predetermines the dates that each county plays champp football, and in turn, their own club schedule on the off dates. However, in 2016 the integrity of the schedule was compromised due to replays etc (which should be scrapped).
In actual fact, the split is only workable through Rds 3A/3B, as all four Finalists from the two initial Prov Finals enter the A side of the draw. This leads to some crossover - Mayo and Cork were dumped from such Finals this year and entered the B side of the Last 12 instead of the expected A side.
My biggest issue here is that if the Ulster Final is played 3rd or 4th every year, the Muns/Conn Finalists will always potentially avoid the toughest AI QF opponent.
My solution is - Keep the integrity through 3A/3B as is, but as there is already A and B crossover in the later stages, the Prov Finalists could be subject to a less restrictive draw (no need for linking a pair of Provs).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 27/07/2016 18:55:59
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Replying To omahant: "I like the idea of the A and B halves to the draw, as it predetermines the dates that each county plays champp football, and in turn, their own club schedule on the off dates. However, in 2016 the integrity of the schedule was compromised due to replays etc (which should be scrapped).
In actual fact, the split is only workable through Rds 3A/3B, as all four Finalists from the two initial Prov Finals enter the A side of the draw. This leads to some crossover - Mayo and Cork were dumped from such Finals this year and entered the B side of the Last 12 instead of the expected A side.
My biggest issue here is that if the Ulster Final is played 3rd or 4th every year, the Muns/Conn Finalists will always potentially avoid the toughest AI QF opponent.
My solution is - Keep the integrity through 3A/3B as is, but as there is already A and B crossover in the later stages, the Prov Finalists could be subject to a less restrictive draw (no need for linking a pair of Provs)." That is an interesting point you make about the timing of the provincial finals and how it affects the quarter final pairings.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4208 - 27/07/2016 19:39:36
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Linking Provs for the AI QF should also be done on a rotational basis as well (but maybe off cycle, say use prior year SF rotation instead to get a variety of cross Prov pairings).
The other issue I have here is 'seeding' in the AI Last 12 can be a punishment - Uls Champs (in the AI QFs) and losing Uls Finalist (in Qual Rd 4) cannot draw the weakest fellow Champ (Galway) and weakest fellow beaten Finalist (Tipp), respectively - thereby, increasing the chance of drawing a stronger team (from Ulster) coming thru the Quals instead - why ?
Keeping Prov Champs apart may be traditional - but may not make sense. Why should Kerry avoid Dublin for cake walking Muns, but Dublin is an eligible AI QF opponent for Donegal ?
Cleanest way to address these anomolies - Open Draw in AI Last 12 (or Last 16 as mentioned elsewhere)
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 28/07/2016 16:11:05
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Cut league into groups of six
Start league 1st week of Feb
Play finals on St Patricks weekend (5 matches over two days)
Seed the provincial championships, start preliminary rounds week after league finals and run the provincials off over 5 weeks (whole lot done by end of april)
Take the month of May off for club games and return with the qualifiers run off over 4 weeks of June (no big deal - a lot of counties get 6 weeks off during the existing season) with first round losers into B championship. Play hurling provincial championship in this time as well.
Play B championship in July - winners into Q final - Club matches in all other counties
Return with q finals, semi and finals over 5 weeks.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 29/07/2016 08:38:30
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Provincial comps still getting in the way of meaningful competition.
Still think an A and B competition is the way forward with promotion and relegation.
Play at your own level and work your way up. Better than hoping for an ok draw in the qualifiers.
sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 2897 - 29/07/2016 17:15:47
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