|
GAA is no nearer to an agreed championship restructuring than it was when Jim McG floated his idea in June last year.
Given the multitude of varying ideas - it might be best to blend the best of the lot together - say, JmcG's 2x16, with GPA 8x4, with NFL, with Prov SFs.
Start with GPA 8x4 and put a Prov SF (after the initial rounds) in each section.
Complete the sections to ensure there is a 'pair of NFL Div 1' or a 'pair of NFL Div 4' teams in each (avoids 1v4 matchups).
Sections with the strong '1 seeds' are '4x4 groups'; the sections with '4 seeds' are '4x4 pools' (like an Upper and Lower JMcG 2x16).
After 3 group/pool matches, 8 group 2nd and 3rd placed, join 8 section winners in the KO Rd of 16.
In future years, 4 groups could consist of prior year Last 16, while 4 pools have the others. While lopsided, this should keep all 8 sections more competitive.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 10/06/2016 19:18:07
1864971
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "GAA is no nearer to an agreed championship restructuring than it was when Jim McG floated his idea in June last year.
Given the multitude of varying ideas - it might be best to blend the best of the lot together - say, JmcG's 2x16, with GPA 8x4, with NFL, with Prov SFs.
Start with GPA 8x4 and put a Prov SF (after the initial rounds) in each section.
Complete the sections to ensure there is a 'pair of NFL Div 1' or a 'pair of NFL Div 4' teams in each (avoids 1v4 matchups).
Sections with the strong '1 seeds' are '4x4 groups'; the sections with '4 seeds' are '4x4 pools' (like an Upper and Lower JMcG 2x16).
After 3 group/pool matches, 8 group 2nd and 3rd placed, join 8 section winners in the KO Rd of 16.
In future years, 4 groups could consist of prior year Last 16, while 4 pools have the others. While lopsided, this should keep all 8 sections more competitive." It'll be years before you'll see change to the championship...if ever.. we all know how much the GAA embraces new ideas..
GGdub (Dublin) - Posts: 260 - 10/06/2016 20:27:05
1864999
Link
1
|
|
Keep the NFL:
3 Tiers to the league which will also be used for the championship grades.
Div 1/Senior Championship 10 teams
Div 2/Intermediate Championship 10 teams
Div 3/Junior Championship 12 teams
Division 1 and 2 Single round robin 9 games each
Division 3 2 groups of 6. Top 3 from each group progress to play 3 more league games.
Bottom 2 from each group go into Junior championship round 1, in round 2 the round 1 winners play the 4th placed teams. The 2 winners complete the Junior Championship quarterfinals alongside the other 6 teams.
The Junior championship gets played concurrent to the provincial championship. The Junior champion qualifies for that year's Intermediate championship quarterfinals.
3 teams get promoted to next year's intermediate. Junior champions plus next 2 best from league division 3.
Intermediate championship begins after division 2 finishes. Top 4 from division 2 qualify for the quarterfinals, alongside the Junior champion.
The other 6 teams play in the Intermediate championship 1st round to get the final 3 quarterfinals. The intermediate championship is played concurrent to the provincial championship.
The intermediate champion qualifies for the AI quarter-finals. 3 teams go up, the intermediate champion plus 2 others. The bottom 3 league teams get relegated.
Division 1 gets played concurrent to the provincial championships. It starts later than the other divisions and catches up when they're playing their championship.
The AI quarterfinals are made up of the 4 provincial champions. Plus the intermediate champion plus the next 3 best teams in division 1. The bottom 3 teams in division 1 are relegated.
Teams all play their provincial championship and a league and championship at their own level. With winning their championship giving them progression that year into the higher championship.
Division 2 and 3 start earlier than division 1. Their climax is during the start of the division 1 season. This might help raise the profile of the lower divisions.
Season would look something like this:
1 Div 3 rd 1
2 Div 2 rd 1, div 3 rd 2
3 Div 2 rd 2, div 3 rd 3
4 Div 2 rd 3, div 3 rd 4
5 Div 2 rd 4, div 3, rd 5
6 Div 1 rd 1, div 2 rd 5, div 3 rd 6, Jun c'ship rd 1
7 Div 1 rd 2, div 2 rd 6, div 3 rd 7, Jun c'ship rd 2
8 Div 1 rd 3, div 2 rd 7, div 3 rd 8
9 Provincial championship preliminaries
10 Div 1 rd 4, div 2 rd 8, Junior c'ship QF
11 Div 1 rd 5, div 2 rd 9, Junior c'ship SF
12 Provincial championship QF
13 Div 1 rd 6, Int c'ship rd 1, Jun c'ship Final
14 Div 1 rd 7, Int c'ship QF
15 Provincial championship SF
16 Div 1 rd 8, Int c'ship SF
17 Div 1 rd 9, Int c'ship Final
18 Provincial finals
AI quarterfinals
The lower levels have more of a shot at exposure as their competitions are more advanced the whole way along than the divisions above them.
In terms of games there are 129 league games
28 provincial championship games
A further 28 AI championship games at the 3 different levels. That's less than 10 extra games.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 11/06/2016 01:57:04
1865070
Link
0
|
|
The GPA were trying too much too soon. The GAA does not move like that. If an agreement cannot be met for the 8 provincial finalists and 8 Qualifier Round 2 winners to enter a Round 16, it's hard to see other ideas taking off.
Sean Kelly has argued that home advantage should be used as a reward for certain progression. It is something that the GAA seem reluctant to embrace.
If 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers were entering the same round, there would have to be some carrot for winning the provincial championship. My suggestion in that context is for the provincial winners to be guaranteed a home game and being drawn against the lowest 4 of the 8 qualifiers based on league placing. It's a simple suggestion within current structures.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 11/06/2016 08:13:09
1865077
Link
0
|
|
Some of my proposals are too much of a departure to current structures.
A simple rejig of the qualifiers would make it more fair.
Rd 1 the same as now. 16 teams eliminated before provincial semi-finals
Rd 2 8 round 1 winners joined by losing Connacht and Munster semi-finalists. 12 teams play with 6 eliminated
Rd 3 6 round 2 winners joined by losing Ulster and Leinster semi-finalist and Losing Munster and Connacht finalists. 12 teams play with 6 eliminated.
Rd 4 6 round 3 winners joined by losing Ulster and Leinster finalists. 8 teams play with 4 teams eliminated.
AI quarter-finals 4 round 4 winners join 4 provincial champions.
In future years I'd look to change the schedule.
Ulster and Leinster preliminary rounds and quarter-finals are completed over 3 weekends.
I'd start the league later. 8 rounds played off in March and April. No gap before championship. Take May and June to get to AI QF. Have the AI final played on the August bank holiday with all club championships to start the weekend after.
Short sharp season. Maybe more players will buy into it.
Championship Season:
Week 1 Ulster, Leinster, Connacht NY game which is now a QF rather than preliminary round game
Week 2 2 Ulster QFs, 1 Leinster QF (teams not playing in preliminary round), 2 Munster QF, 2 Connacht QF
Week 3 2 Ulster QF, 3 Leinster QF
Week 4 1 Ulster SF, 2 Connacht Semi-finals, 2 Munster semi-finals
Week 5 1 Ulster SF, 2 Leinster SF, Qualifier round 1
Week 6 Munster Final, Connacht final, Qualifier round 2
Week 7 Ulster Final, Leinster Final
Week 8 Qualifier round 3
Week 9 Qualifier round 4
Week 10 AI QF
Week 11 break
Week 12 AI Semi-final weekend
Week 13Break
Week 14 AI Final
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 11/06/2016 11:49:11
1865098
Link
0
|
|
Some of my proposals are too much of a departure to current structures.
A simple rejig of the qualifiers would make it more fair.
Rd 1 the same as now. 16 teams eliminated before provincial semi-finals
Rd 2 8 round 1 winners joined by losing Connacht and Munster semi-finalists. 12 teams play with 6 eliminated
Rd 3 6 round 2 winners joined by losing Ulster and Leinster semi-finalist and Losing Munster and Connacht finalists. 12 teams play with 6 eliminated.
Rd 4 6 round 3 winners joined by losing Ulster and Leinster finalists. 8 teams play with 4 teams eliminated.
AI quarter-finals 4 round 4 winners join 4 provincial champions.
It's a fair shout to bring fairness within current structures. Will Antrim GAA bring that to congress? They have already got a motion through for the Ring winners to enter the Leinster quarter-finals.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 11/06/2016 15:59:16
1865154
Link
0
|
|
3 modest proposals by us with no chance ?
Put simply - No change, except the following -
Wham - Losers in Lein/Uls SFs and Muns/Conn Finals (6 teams enter 12-team Qual Rd 3);
Legendz - 8 Qual 2 winners and 8 Prov Finalists in AI Rd of 16; and
Omah - 8 Qual Rd 1 losers to Rd 1A and 4 Prov Champs to Champs Playoff (adds Rd to Front Door)
Only issue with your plans -
Wham - Muns/Conn champs enter Rd 5 (AI QFs), 3 Rds after Prov Finals and how many weeks ?
Legendz - Not as fair as Wham - still Muns/Conn SF bye losers to Rd 2, while 16 teams must win 2 Quals.
My 2+6 has neither of these issues (but creating others ?)
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 11/06/2016 20:00:08
1865235
Link
0
|
|
Another 1 workable in current structures and incorporates a second tier competition.
Bottom 12 teams based on league going out before Ulster and Leinster semi-finals and Connacht and Munster finals go into a second tier championship. Champion of this goes into AI last 12. They'll be 4 teams receiving byes. Preference should be given to teams who won a provincial championship match.
12 other teams not making their provincial finals play 2 rounds to get 3 more teams into AI last 12.
AI last 12 is these 4 teams plus losing provincial finalists.
Doesn't address provincial imbalance but does get a second tier competition where teams remain in the hunt for the AI.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 15/06/2016 15:20:43
1867253
Link
0
|
|
As we look at the Euro 2016, I began to think again how the GPA 8x4 might be improved. We need to avoid 'Divs 1v4' matches and concentrate the stronger teams in 4 of the groups as follows -
1) Seed a 'pair of Div 1' teams in Groups 1 to 4.
2) Put a 'pair of Div 4' teams in Pools 5 to 8.
3) Complete the draw with a random 'pair from Other 16' in each section.
4) 4 Group winners and 6 Group Wild Cards to the Last 16 KO; 4 Pool winners and 8 Pool Wild Cards play off for remaining 6 Last 16 spots.
5) Put 2 prior year QFlists and 2 Other Last 16 teams in the Groups the following year.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 16/06/2016 18:01:58
1867812
Link
0
|
|
I think everyone is in agreement that we need a "Last 16 " round. 16-8-4-2....How ever we get to it is anyone's guess
lasertech (UK) - Posts: 129 - 16/06/2016 19:00:00
1867830
Link
0
|
|
I can't help myself - I'm addicred - here I go again - Combine NFL and hampionship -
1) Have 2 x 10 Strong Groups and 2 x 6 (North/ South) Lesser Pools.
2) Put the prior year 4 AI QFs in the Groups - 2 to each - with 12 NFL weakest to the Pools - 6 to each.
3) Draw the 12 remaining Open Draw to complete the Groups.
4) 10 matches for all - Groups play against OTHER Group; Pool plays double round robin OWN Pool.
5) 20 Teams to AI KO - Top 7 and 3 from each Group and Pool, respectively.
6) Top in Group A (A1) v B1 (doubles as NFL Div 1 Final); Top In Pool N (N1) v S1 (Div 2 Final).
7) Divs 1 and 2 champs to AI QFs respectively.
8) Last 16 pairings - A1vB1; A2vA7or(N2/S3); A3vA6or(N3/S2); A4vA5; B2vB7(S2/N3); B3vB6or(S3/N2);
B4vB5; and N1vS1.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 19/06/2016 16:08:28
1868903
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "I can't help myself - I'm addicred - here I go again - Combine NFL and hampionship -
1) Have 2 x 10 Strong Groups and 2 x 6 (North/ South) Lesser Pools.
2) Put the prior year 4 AI QFs in the Groups - 2 to each - with 12 NFL weakest to the Pools - 6 to each.
3) Draw the 12 remaining Open Draw to complete the Groups.
4) 10 matches for all - Groups play against OTHER Group; Pool plays double round robin OWN Pool.
5) 20 Teams to AI KO - Top 7 and 3 from each Group and Pool, respectively.
6) Top in Group A (A1) v B1 (doubles as NFL Div 1 Final); Top In Pool N (N1) v S1 (Div 2 Final).
7) Divs 1 and 2 champs to AI QFs respectively.
8) Last 16 pairings - A1vB1; A2vA7or(N2/S3); A3vA6or(N3/S2); A4vA5; B2vB7(S2/N3); B3vB6or(S3/N2);
B4vB5; and N1vS1." I thought splitting the National League into Northern League and Southern League would be a good Idea, mainly as I notice most National League games attract very few away fans, especially if its teams from opposite ends of the Country playing.
Northern League would see 9 Counties of Ulster, with maybe Louth, Meath, Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim, Mayo, Longford/Westmeath
North and South would feature 10 team Top Division, and a 6 team lower division.
The top division would play 9 matches, either home or away.
While the lower division teams would play each other twice, 5 home, 5 away.
Example:
Northern Division 1.
1. Roscommon,
2. Donegal,
3. Mayo,
4. Monaghan,
5. Tyrone
6. Cavan
7. Derry
8. Meath
9. Down
10. Fermanagh
Northern Division 2
1. Sligo
2. Longford
3. Antrim
4, Armagh
5. Louth
6. Leitrim
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 19/06/2016 16:33:39
1868917
Link
0
|
|
I like the Idea of a Championship shake up Omahant, but I think a National League shake up should be looked at first.
The Qualifier system has become very boring and lack interest until the later stages, and teams that do navigate their way through are disadvantaged with a short turnaround for a Quarter final against a Provincial Champion.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 19/06/2016 16:45:13
1868921
Link
0
|
|
Replying To GaryMc82: "I like the Idea of a Championship shake up Omahant, but I think a National League shake up should be looked at first.
The Qualifier system has become very boring and lack interest until the later stages, and teams that do navigate their way through are disadvantaged with a short turnaround for a Quarter final against a Provincial Champion." I'd agree with this.
I think if there's to be a wider range of teams competing for the AI then there need to be more teams involved in NFL division 1 football.
I'd also change the timing so that the competition starts later and there's no gap between it and championship starting. To allow for club football to be played the AI final needs to be brought forward, and considerably more than the 2 weeks that got voted down at congress.
For me these are the main issues affecting the running of our competitions, I wouldn't expect change any time soon though.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 19/06/2016 18:59:14
1869042
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "I'd agree with this.
I think if there's to be a wider range of teams competing for the AI then there need to be more teams involved in NFL division 1 football.
I'd also change the timing so that the competition starts later and there's no gap between it and championship starting. To allow for club football to be played the AI final needs to be brought forward, and considerably more than the 2 weeks that got voted down at congress.
For me these are the main issues affecting the running of our competitions, I wouldn't expect change any time soon though." Yeah I think by splitting the National League into two Northern/Southern Leagues, it will give Division 2/3 sides more exposure to Division 1 standard sides prior to the Championship. I think it would also create more local derbies, and possibly attract more fans to games to see them play their local rivals. I don't see any real draw backs, like it would do no harm to try it for 4 years.
Club Championships deserve a share of summer football, so I would maybe consider running off the Provincial Championships in 6 weeks(Excluding preliminary rounds), and allow a 6 week break before All Ireland Series kicks in. That should allow 3 guaranteed rounds of Club Championship around mid summer.
My GAA calendar
February to Mid April - National League 9 rounds of games per team.
Mid April to June 30th - Provincial Championships & Early Club Championship rounds
Mid June to Mid August - Knock-out Club Championship
Mid August - September - All Ireland Series.
October - Mid November - Provincial Club Championships.
Mid November - Mid December - All Ireland Club Championship
I think 2 weeks between all games is more than sufficient, and I would abolish replays, instead playing 20 minutes extra time at which point, I would if nobody is leading, It would be next score wins it. We could run off the Provincial Championships in 6- 8 weeks, and the All Ireland series in 6 weeks. The majority of players would have November and December off, restarting in January.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 19/06/2016 20:13:35
1869101
Link
0
|
|
The 2 North winner could be Nortern 8th seed in AIC after Div 2 Final with 2 South winner.
I kept Div 1 national - but if we keep both Divs regional, we could have an AIC Last 16 inter regional -
N1vS8; N2vS7 etc.
Actual NFL in 80s had North as Ulstrr 9 + Conn 5 + Louth, Longf, Westm, less Galway. Then it was Div 1 with 6 and 2 lower groups of 5.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 19/06/2016 20:14:31
1869102
Link
0
|
|
Replying To GaryMc82: "Yeah I think by splitting the National League into two Northern/Southern Leagues, it will give Division 2/3 sides more exposure to Division 1 standard sides prior to the Championship. I think it would also create more local derbies, and possibly attract more fans to games to see them play their local rivals. I don't see any real draw backs, like it would do no harm to try it for 4 years.
Club Championships deserve a share of summer football, so I would maybe consider running off the Provincial Championships in 6 weeks(Excluding preliminary rounds), and allow a 6 week break before All Ireland Series kicks in. That should allow 3 guaranteed rounds of Club Championship around mid summer.
My GAA calendar
February to Mid April - National League 9 rounds of games per team.
Mid April to June 30th - Provincial Championships & Early Club Championship rounds
Mid June to Mid August - Knock-out Club Championship
Mid August - September - All Ireland Series.
October - Mid November - Provincial Club Championships.
Mid November - Mid December - All Ireland Club Championship
I think 2 weeks between all games is more than sufficient, and I would abolish replays, instead playing 20 minutes extra time at which point, I would if nobody is leading, It would be next score wins it. We could run off the Provincial Championships in 6- 8 weeks, and the All Ireland series in 6 weeks. The majority of players would have November and December off, restarting in January." I kind of like club championship at the end of the season. August and September is almost as good for playing football as June and July. An AI final played in the last week of July I think would be great for the club player.
You take holidays the first 2 weeks of July, come back have a few weeks training and the bang club championship time.
If the AI were earlier every county could have their championship planned right at the start of the season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 19/06/2016 21:00:23
1869143
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "The 2 North winner could be Nortern 8th seed in AIC after Div 2 Final with 2 South winner.
I kept Div 1 national - but if we keep both Divs regional, we could have an AIC Last 16 inter regional -
N1vS8; N2vS7 etc.
Actual NFL in 80s had North as Ulstrr 9 + Conn 5 + Louth, Longf, Westm, less Galway. Then it was Div 1 with 6 and 2 lower groups of 5." I'd never known about that NFL format.
It was quite a good one actually.
They'd also a format that only lasted 1 year with 3 groups of 6 in division 1 plus 2 regionalised groups of 7 for division 2. Top 2 in each division 1 group and top of each division 2 group made the quarter-finals.
I quite like how it used to be that every team had a chance of winning the league. I think structures like that would be good for the championship now.
The real complicating factor is the provincial championships and how to keep them meaningful. The provincial championships are worth keeping though as part of the main championship. Results like Galway v Mayo, Tipp v Cork and even Cavan v Tyrone probably wouldn't have the same impact outside of the provincial championship format.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 19/06/2016 21:18:30
1869161
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "The 2 North winner could be Nortern 8th seed in AIC after Div 2 Final with 2 South winner.
I kept Div 1 national - but if we keep both Divs regional, we could have an AIC Last 16 inter regional -
N1vS8; N2vS7 etc.
Actual NFL in 80s had North as Ulstrr 9 + Conn 5 + Louth, Longf, Westm, less Galway. Then it was Div 1 with 6 and 2 lower groups of 5." I'm not sure how that would work with the league seeding, without expanding the current AIC, which I'm not opposed to. Can you map out how that would work Omahant?
Ideally we need to give the clubs greater consideration, and also the players themselves who train all year round.
I would scrap league finals, and just have top of the table wins it.
Northern Regional League (10 teams Div 1, 6 teams Div 2)
Southern Regional League ( 10 teams Div 1, 6 teams Div 2).
I don't think we need a National League winner either, like a Regional would be fine and that would give the All Ireland Championship a more unique National dimension.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 19/06/2016 21:26:11
1869171
Link
0
|
|
The real complicating factor is the provincial championships and how to keep them meaningful. The provincial championships are worth keeping though as part of the main championship. Results like Galway v Mayo, Tipp v Cork and even Cavan v Tyrone probably wouldn't have the same impact outside of the provincial championship format.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:375 - 19/06/2016 21:18:30 1
I think the Provincial Championships are important, from a regional point of view it ensures success for one team in all 4 provinces every single year, keeping the game relevant. Like if you have scenario where a team like Dublin dominates the All Ireland Championship for 6 or 7 years, and have no Provincial Championship, the only celebrations in the Country are going to be in Dublin, and people around the place will eventually lose Interest.
It is important to keep this alive, as we have 4 strong provinces at present and its good for the game. We need to accommodate this into changes.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 19/06/2016 21:35:58
1869182
Link
0
|