Two semi finals played and all four teams set up defensively! Question is though why? Mayo and dublin havent played this system before and have the players to play ball!
For me throwing 14 men behind the ball is the lowest common denominator of tactics! Nothing massively intelligent about it and as kerry showed against donegal last year it doesn't take long to perfect!
Personally I blame the management, managers got to show more faith in there players! Work for Fitz last year so he adopted it against Tyrone, personally I think we were lucky as it nearly back fired, if we played our own game I think we would have beaten Tyrone easily! Jim galvin seems scarred from last year's semi and mayo seem to be just trying to emulate donegal last year! All in all it is all very short sighted, is not imaginative and despite what people say, it's not a tactical masterclass!

as_ky (Kerry) - Posts: 535 - 01/09/2015 20:22:37    1780239

Asky we would go man on man but the opposition won't , Mayo played defensive so we were hardly going to fall into the same trap as last year and have everyone up in Mayo's half. Mayo obviously felt after our league game that they couldn't go man on man but when they eventually let the shackles off last Sunday and went man on man they cause us big problems.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 01/09/2015 20:57:03    1780265

As ky
How would Kerry fans have reacted last year if they had lost the final. And the point is they could have.
I know they won but I'm asking what in your opinion would most of Kerry fans have said had they lost. Would E F have got a slating. ??
I disagree with you about masterclass tactics. Let's face it Tyrone are very shrew tactics wise and with better finishing would have beaten Kerry. I think J MC Mahon was a severe loss for Tyrone as I doubt if he were playing Kerry would have scored 18 points.
The other thing is how much did J o Donoghue score from play against Tyrone? How much did he score from play in last year's A I final ? Now he is supposed to be one of the top scoring forwards in Ireland, yet on two big occasions in Croke park he fails to score.
Other teams are bound to take notice of that and copy the likes of Tyrone / Donegal.
Also I thought Donegal were slightly better with their defensive system in last year's AI than Tyrone were this year in the semi. For us to just concede just 9 points against a so called brilliant forward line like Kerry's was very good. I know we gave away two awful goals

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 01/09/2015 21:19:33    1780288

I'm not saying that it does not work, it clearly does work to an extent, my issue is that there is no manager out there at present that is looking at how they can beat the system, they are all just looking to imitate it! Heard some crazy stat that parsons from mayo had over 30 possessions against donegal and didnt kick the ball once! That just makes a mockery of the game!
Understandable why donegal and Tyrone play a tactic that can stop players like JOD but from the greater picture, from a spectators point of view and the development of the game, do we really want a game that drowns out the most talented! If you were to show someone who had never seen the game before a match where two teams are playing defensive football they would say it was a much sport with little to no skill level involved!

as_ky (Kerry) - Posts: 535 - 01/09/2015 21:47:28    1780307

That is a great post as_ky and sums things up well. One of the greatest achievements of the managers who implemented the defensive style of football was not coming up with the tactic itself, but convincing people that it was some elaborate, complicated system that takes years to develop properly. Setting out a team defensively shows a lack of trust in your own teams footballing abilities and skills, and comes from a fear of what the opposition might do to you. Is it any wonder then that we see players commit cowardly acts on the field such as diving and feigning injury, sledging or late hits on vulnerable opponents. Gone are the days of believing that the 15 best men from ones own county are better than the best 15 men any other county might produce. I agree that it almost cost Kerry the last day as well, it wasn't until Tyrone got back level that Kerry decided to cut loose, showed how much better they were as footballers and kicked the last 4 points.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 01/09/2015 21:57:24    1780314

I'm afraid its here to stay. Defensive counter attacking football played by one side against a side that does man to man will win out. This has been proven time and time again. So who is going to go man to man, whenever the other side doesn't? The pressure to win nowadays overrides the pressure to entertain. However at least this thread is being fair and points to the fact that most teams are at it now, not just Tyrone. Some fans seem blind to the fact that their team is playing the 15 men behind the ball tactic.

TyroneLegend78 (Tyrone) - Posts: 52 - 02/09/2015 08:42:24    1780341

Lads the reason is simply because these tactics are more optimal, no matter if you have good players or crap players - a good defensive system will do better in any situation. Its simply the evolution of Gaelic football which people are still reluctant to accept. Can you imagine teams in basketball playing 2-1-2 formations and sticking to their positions? No, of course not. Everyone attacks and everyone defends. Thats why possession is so important in the modern game as it allows people in defensive positions time to adopt more attacking positions - if you dont keep the ball then you surrender this opportunity to build an attack.

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 02/09/2015 09:19:47    1780372

Spot benjyyy, I hear old boys talking about the modern game and they have this mystical view of the past & it was the best thing ever… Sorry but leaving yourself wide open at the back is tactically naive and plain stupid if honest..

The fitness levels these days are at superhuman levels and the effort put into systems by clued up management teams is now at a professional level that is all. When the system is used to an optimum it is a pleasure to see, Tyrone in the early 00's and Donegal in 2012 were fantastic to watch IMO. The pace they broke at taking the ball from end to end was as good as any football you would wish to see!

The issue really is the RTE and general media negativity has come from boys similar to the old boys I was eluding to earlier. They are living in the past unfortunately, the game has basically moved on but they haven't simple really..

Until the dinosaurs move on unfortunately the negativity will continue..;( The only possible other way to stop the mass defences is create a rule where you have to have a min of 6 players in the oppositions half at all times but I can hardly see that happening so these old heads are just going to have to accept the modern game for what it is..

Mancirish (UK) - Posts: 2200 - 02/09/2015 09:58:20    1780412

TyroneLegend78
County: Tyrone
Posts: 47

1780341
I'm afraid its here to stay. Defensive counter attacking football played by one side against a side that does man to man will win out.

Only when the team playing the counter attacking football is good enough. If 2 teams of a similar standard play then yes the one that plays the defensive system will almost certainly beat the team playing attacking football.

But it isn't a magic panacea. If a poor team plays a defensive brand of ball against a good side attacking then they'll still get beat. It may be the difference between a 12 point beating and a 20 point hammering but the end result is the same.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 02/09/2015 10:07:45    1780420

Anybody notice the change in language on RTE? When it's Donegal playing over last few years it's been 'blanket defence' and and how to beat the blanket etc. Now I've noticed recently a subtle change in language. When Dublin, Mayo and Kerry pull men back it's called a 'sweeper system'!! Much more sophisticated!

supporter (Donegal) - Posts: 205 - 02/09/2015 10:10:52    1780423

The sad fact was the defensive football style did not suit both Dublina nd Mayo.
It is well for one of them to lose and going out in style as in losing playing that shite. A bit like Kerry in 2013...gallant losers!!

SamOnErrigal, good point about James O Donoghue but when the scoring zone is as full as Italy's port with illegal immigrants he had to bottle to work for the team instead of hanging in inside and hoping to get a handful of touches. A bit like Aidan O Shea was a colussus for mayo the last day but his best work was done outside of the scoring zone.

woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 02/09/2015 10:21:19    1780436

Last weekend's match showed that all the top teams are now playing the blanket defence in one form or another. I think it made sense for both Dublin and Mayo to concentrate more on defence as leaking goals cost down last year but I was really surprised how defensive the were. It is just part of the evolution of gaelic football and I do believe teams will get better at breaking down the blanket. Even in the last few years it is noticeable that teams do not get as frustrated, they are more patient when faced with a wall of defenders.

JimTheLegend (Donegal) - Posts: 247 - 02/09/2015 11:03:56    1780470

The reason teams play defensive football is that, under the present rules, it works.

As clondalkin said, Dublin would love to play mano a mano football as it suits their style & they are brilliant at it. But the fact of the matter is that a good defensive system will beat a good attacking system most of the time.

I we want things to change the the rules have to change as no manager is going to finish his team talk exhorting the players to "entertain the crowd whatever else ye do lads".

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 02/09/2015 19:45:13    1780883

MuckrossHead
County: Donegal
Posts: 3727

1780883
The reason teams play defensive football is that, under the present rules, it works.

As clondalkin said, Dublin would love to play mano a mano football as it suits their style & they are brilliant at it. But the fact of the matter is that a good defensive system will beat a good attacking system most of the time.

I we want things to change the the rules have to change as no manager is going to finish his team talk exhorting the players to "entertain the crowd whatever else ye do lads".

----
This is all true and it's a great pity. It saddened me to see two of the greatest forwards in the modern game, Flynn and Connoly operating deep on their own 45 for a lot of the game on Sunday. They looked like lost sheep at times and neither had an impact on the game. Similarly with Michael Murphy for Donegal, these days more often seen in his own half than on the opposition 20 which again is a great shame. It's here for the foreseeable future unfortunately. Will it damage the game as s spectacle? Most likely. Will it make it less attractive to budding forwards? Yes I would say. Will it dissuade kids from taking up the sport, these tactics are now being taught at underage level? Possibly.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 02/09/2015 21:09:48    1780928

What surprised me about Mayo and Dublin is that they have gone from all out attacking teams to playing an all out blanket defence, surely there is a happy medium for both sides. Kerry seem to have found this happy medium between defence and attack, is that because they use the foot pass more than other teams and can keep 3 attackers up at all times? Flynn and Connolly are good examples of great players who will suffer if they are in their own half back line. Would Dublin be better to move Connolly to the full forward line (if available) and bring in a work horse to play the deep lying half forward role?

JimTheLegend (Donegal) - Posts: 247 - 03/09/2015 09:35:48    1780990

Mancirish
County: UK
Posts: 2130

The issue really is the RTE and general media negativity has come from boys similar to the old boys I was eluding to earlier. They are living in the past unfortunately, the game has basically moved on but they haven't simple really..

This post has summed up everything in a nut shell.

Im not an old boy im 39 and only retired this year. But i do lament the way the game was played. As another person put it you can have 15 brilliant players or 15 crap and you can have the same result once the fitness levels are right. With the MODERN GAME we will no longer have the talks about the gooch or brogan or canavan. Or on the other side the O shea or anthony lynch in relation to defensive displays. Saying that the game has moved on doesnt necessarily mean it has moved on for the better. It would be nice to see the best 15/21 players as a collective team being crowned al champions

Also you mention the rte and negativity but would you not concede that setting up for a match with a defensive system is by its own definition negative .. You look at games of the past we used to discuss who would mark gooch or mark brogan now the whole team marks them cause how often do we see 14 men in their own half. Also have you ever known such i high rate of scoring from back as we have now adays ??

so call me old call me a dinosaur but i prefered to watch the game the way it was played i prefered to watch when teams priority was to go out and score not go out and defend. It is my contention that so much is put into defending at training that we see the kind of wides we see now adays . They arent sneaking wide they are sneaking towards the corner flag. THEY ARE GOING WIDE BY METRES NOT INCHES.

I agree they best thing is to introduce a minimum number of forwards that must stay in their own half. 4 would be enough but there should be a minimum . A gentle man here mentioned basketball and saying that they dont maintain zonal defence for an entire game. But since basketball was brought up there are rules from it that would go down well in gaa. One a time clock counting down thus taking away this fictitious injury time. Technical fouls where the free / penalty is straight infront of the posts. And a number of fouls any player is allowed to commit as well as a team total . I played basket ball for years so know the game and the rules that would go well. The best one is the technical foul. Should a player deliberately foul in his own half in the dying minutes of the game the free is automatically taken infront of the posts thus taking away the benefit of pulling him down..

I do believe over the next few years there will be changes at congress .. Based on this year sky wont be running to resign a contract ..The games simply were not good enough

So yeah changes will come but for the moment negativity breed negativity .. And if its negative in the training pitches and the dressing rooms then it will be negative in the rte studios and pubs

ritchie (Cork) - Posts: 346 - 03/09/2015 11:50:27    1781127

Spot on Ritchie...couldnt have said it better myself!

woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 03/09/2015 12:55:20    1781201

Thanks for seeing my post as a reasonable assessment of our games currently Richie.

Just to breakdown your post a little;

It would be nice to see the best 15/21 players as a collective team being crowned al champions…I would say that in general the best team still does win the AI but I would say that the tactical awareness of managers is so much more important now. Subs have become a massive part of the game also and the manager's awareness of changing situations as games develop has become critical. Just off the top of my head I really believe James Horan messed up against Kerry last year and the Dubs the 2013 and very likely cost Mayo 2 All Irelands IMO not his team so I would also add the management team to the squad of players…


Would you not concede that setting up for a match with a defensive system is by its own definition negative?
A defensive system can be seen and used to lethal effect if you have players with pace and there distribution is spot. As I was saying in my post some of the football played by Donegal in 2012 was breath taking IMO and a pleasure to watch. The way they counterattacked from deep was a joy to be hold! But logically pulling the majority of your 15 behind the ball is common sense when you think about.. If you want to call it negative that's up to you and I can understand why you would but as a coach I would rather see this positive in my team for the way it deals with its defensive skills and responsibilities..;)


Also have you ever known such I high rate of scoring from back as we have now a days ??
This has got to be a positive surly, is there a finer site than a skilled FB/HB soloing up the pitch at pace and linking with his forwards? The modern game has given us this which has to be good. As you are indicating this would have been unheard off back in the day. A defo plus IMO and the key to a counter attacking quality team…


It is my contention that so much is put into defending at training that we see the kind of wides we see now adays . They aren't sneaking wide they are sneaking towards the corner flag. THEY ARE GOING WIDE BY METRES NOT INCHES.
Again I'd be keen to praise the defending rather than be critical of the forward missing but that is due to more often than not the numbers around the ball.. But from underage you are taught to wait for you chance and make sure you are not off balance if you do that you wont be far away.. What's that old saying patience is a virtue..;)


Based on this year sky won't be running to resign a contract..The games simply were not good enough
I wouldn't agree here sorry Richie. It's been funny reading some of the threads on here re the Dublin v Mayo game where both teams set up with much more defensive shapes than they normally would. Was it the worst Semi ever etc And yes we didn't see the free flowing football we all wanted to see but that was mainly down to the Dublin cynicism and poor defending not the system if honest. But I'll tell you what it was still edge of your seat stuff and people are still talking about it 4 days later… Trust me on this Sky would have loved that game and the way it finished and will be champing at the bit for more of our games.. But also don't forget that the Hurling is also attached to the contract…

As for the rule changes lets just wait and see but I'll believe it when I see it with the numbers up top TBH

Totally agree on the clock, sick and tired of games falling apart towards the end when a team is up and they are clearly counting down the clock. A stop watch kills this antic easily it's a no brainer for me and must come in!!! I hope I covered most of your points.

Mancirish (UK) - Posts: 2200 - 03/09/2015 13:43:37    1781273

And yes we didn't see the free flowing football we all wanted to see but that was mainly down to the Dublin cynicism and poor defending


That nails it personally. You your self wants to see the free flowing. We dont want to see the current encampment that we currently see. I dont want to watch 14 men try break through 15 in one half of the field. If i did i would simply say half the size of the field.

And no the best team doesnt always win. Dublin were the best team in the country last year they didnt even make the final

ritchie (Cork) - Posts: 346 - 03/09/2015 16:19:44    1781452

There will be a change, but it will involve the rules changing. This is what fifa did in 1990 with the introduction of the back pass rule. It worked very well, as the usa 1994 world cup was one of the best ever.

There will be someting brought in to handicap short kick outs etc.

I can see it in the next year actually. Then we will see the mid field being used a lot more than it is at the moment. Really looking forward to the game next saturday, I feel that will see a more open and less defensive game.

ps, there was no sign of Jim MCGuinness, tyrone or monaghan, or indeed any northern team on the pitch last sunday, and yet there was a blanket defense tactic used. It will be interesting to see if the final is the same. If this is the case, then you can no longer blame ulster teams exclusively for it.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 03/09/2015 16:37:35    1781474