So, we've had oodles of championship hurling format suggestions on here, people have probably had enough. So I wouldn't be surprised if this thread got tumbleweed and crickets, but I have one more to add to the bunch.

I think if we're to persist with the provincial system, we have to find a way to include all provinces in the championship. The idea is to start off with a 4 province/32 county AI series, with all counties playing in their province. So all 9 counties play in Uslter SHC, same for Leinster and Connacht, Kerry included in Munster SHC, and so on.

Here's the thing, all teams would have a seeding which would determine what stage they came in at (i.e. Kilkenny would come in at Leinster semi stage, Louth would start at first round).
BUT, the MAIN use of the seeding would determine where teams would go AFTER being knocked out of their provinces, whether they went into the AI qualifers, or Ring/Rackard/Meaghar cups.
Example, say Derry had a Ring seeding (i.e. 3 to 5), and Tipp had a Liam McCarthy seeding (i.e. 7 to 10). If Derry lost their 1st round Ulster game, they would play in the Christy Ring, if Tipp lost their 1st round game, they'd go into the AI qualifers. However, if Derry won their province, their seeding would improve (Tipps seeding would conversely suffer for a 1st round loss etc).
Provinces would also have seeings, to determine at what stage their champions joined the AI series.

It would mean the AI qualifers and Ring/Rackard/Meaghar cups would be played after the provincial championships. Also, I'm not sure how it would work for Galway, I'll admit that off the bat. But I think if we are to persist with the provincial system, we have to find a way to include all provinces. This way, we're still preserving the existing competitions and structures, we're just giving all teams a shot at the AI.

Could there be any merit in this?

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 30/08/2015 18:27:23    1778201

Some merit all right, but do you think all the Connaught & Ulster teams would realistically field teams in those provincial championships?

I'd love to see all those counties participating but unfortunately don't see it happening.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 31/08/2015 09:08:29    1778500

Yeah I think there is Marlon. I was giving a bit of thought yesterday to our comments on the other post the other day where you had asked about the other competitions if it went back to all Provincial Champions getting in to the 1/4 final. I was thinking that the round you exited in determined where you went but realised that by itself was problematic given the skewed nature of the strengths of each Province. I think there is merit to the idea of seeding as it could also potentially push teams on in the likes of Ulster or Connacht and whether or not you look at League or incorporate it alongside previous Championship to gauge these rankings may also put more emphasis on the league and increase the standards at lower league levels. Would you also have a Brucie Bonus where the winners of the other competitions play-off to get in to another play-off against the Province with the lowest seeding points each year? Again the difference between getting in to a 1/4 final directly or having to play the winners of the other play-off could be an incentive for the likes of ourslves and Connacht to push on.

slayer - we actually had a full compliment in the Ulster as recent as from 2007 until 2010 and in 2011 we had 8 of the 9 Counties, with Cavan the only non-participants so I think (hope) we could get all Counties participating again.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 31/08/2015 10:11:28    1778607

slayer - we actually had a full compliment in the Ulster as recent as from 2007 until 2010 and in 2011 we had 8 of the 9 Counties, with Cavan the only non-participants so I think (hope) we could get all Counties participating again.

Cheers offside_rule

How competetive do you think the championship was/is though? With Antrim winning 13 in a row as far as I know, will we ever see the days of Derry & Down competing in All-Ireland semi finals again? I know those sides are in non-McCarthy cups but it would be heart warming to see the Ulster sides back in Croker in the McCarthy Cup.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 31/08/2015 10:18:18    1778627

I think it's a good idea. Something HAS to be done about the current hurling championship, the POTY, Richie Hogan said he hates the championship and he'd rather play more games than less each year. I think this idea would bring in more games for sure, and also more hammerings and mismatches but that happens in every sport does it not?

mayo_hurler (Mayo) - Posts: 113 - 31/08/2015 11:13:15    1778748

mayo_hurler

I think the only way to fix that is to create a 3 or 4 tier structure with proper promotion & relegation whereby the winners of the level below HAVE to be promoted each year. It would allow counties to put together a 5 year plan. Look at club level, what Mount Leinster Rangers achieved in a matter of a few years. That same ability to make it to top flight hurling needs to be there for all counties.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 31/08/2015 11:20:01    1778765

slayer
County: Limerick
Posts: 5448

I agree. But I don't think we need 3-4 tiers in hurling, it widens the gap between the tiers and leaves less games for teams to play. Another proposal I thought might work is something like what Jim McGuinness proposed for football: Scrap the Rackard/Meagher Cups. Have a league-based championship with the top 16 teams playing in the Liam McCarthy Championship and the bottom 16 (+ London, Warwickshire) playing in the Christy Ring.

mayo_hurler (Mayo) - Posts: 113 - 31/08/2015 11:42:32    1778799

Slayer - I think it has the potential to be quite competitive. In 2011 we saw Armagh dispose of Down in the semi and they didn't disgrace themselves either in the final losing by 8. In 2010 London (who made up the 10th team) beat Derry by 3 but unfortunately for them a clash with the Nicky Rackard and no compromise meant they didn't field against Down. Looking back through the results over the years in each of the rounds there were some tight enough games throughout, finals included and yes there have been some big wins too but sure we see that in all of the Provinces and in the AI series itself. I would just love to see an All Ireland system which, alongside proper structures put in place at both Provincial level and with the help of HQ, would help get it to a level which benefits not only us or Ulster Hurling but Hurling in general.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 31/08/2015 11:46:46    1778808

Some good informative posts in this thread.

It was refreshing to watch 'Thank GAA it's Sunday' recently and see Keith Higgins talking about playing hurling. The club scene in Mayo looks reasonable. I know from talking to lads who attend Feile's etc that Easkey in Sligo for example have a solid hurling structure. The more counties we could get playing the game the more interesting it could be.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 31/08/2015 11:52:49    1778813

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim

Yeah, the seeding system would need alot of finesse-ing to get it to be fair, but I think its a good way to go. As for promotion/relegation, as all teams actually start off in the top tier provincial championship, it makes promotion/relegation a bit redundant. What you would have instead, is promotion to higher seeding. For example, the winners of the Christy Ring would achieve Liam McCarthy seeding (so they'd go into the AI qualifiers the following year if they were knocked out of their province), and the lowest place Liam McCarty team would lose their seeding conversely (not sure how you'd determine the lowest Liam MC team, guess it depends on how the qualifers were structured). Same would apply throughout the the tiers.

One idea, that I've seen floated before in a similar way, would be to scrap the league, and play the above system over the course of the year. So you'd have the provincial championships played by May, have a decent break for all counties (enough to realistically allow for club activity), then play the AI series and Ring/Rackard/Meaghar competitions from June onward. Everyone's competition places would have been decided in the provincials, and we could be free to introduce an AI qualifier structure that would giver players a decent number of top summer championship games (closer to what Richie Hogan was looking for). These qualifers would include all the top tier seeded teams, ranked according to how they did in the provinces, as well as the Champions from every province (as well as perhaps the runners up).
Ring/Rackard/Meaghar would be getting played at the same time, returning them to proper summer hurling months.

I might be going overboard there, its easy to go off the reservation when you start thinking about these formats. Its just that, you want to give every county a chance to aspire to the top table. I've waxed lyrical about Tyrone hurlers a bit on these boards, I've been really impressed by how they've progressed through the league divisions and tiers. I just think, how it would help all aspiring hurlers in the county, to know that of they made it to an Ulster final, they'd get into the AI series, and play on the big stages. And if they didn't, they still have a chance to fight for higher seedings via the Nicky Rackard cup, and continue their progress via that avenue.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 31/08/2015 18:21:06    1779296

Some interesting viewpoints here. I wonder do the full-time staff of the GAA ever look at these things in a revolutionary way?

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 01/09/2015 14:37:17    1779930

Some interesting viewpoints here. I wonder do the full-time staff of the GAA ever look at these things in a revolutionary way?

Not sure about them but the lads on off the ball do and they sometimes mention this messageboard. It would be good if some of the feedback here made its way to those same officials.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 01/09/2015 15:20:56    1779966

I see they've suggested restructuring the UHC, 4 seeded teams - Antrim,Down ,Derry,Armagh all play one another with both losers facing a relegation playoff with the winners from other section

The remaining 5 counties similarly play off with the winner facing the loser from 'top tier'.

Im not sure where London fit into all this, though id imagine if theyre a Christy Ring team still then they would be in the top tier.

Its worth a try I suppose, if nothing else it will encourage all the counties to participate and with the chance of promotion form second tier will give the weaker counties something to target!

However, I still think the UHC is on life support as there is no appeal to the public and no benefits to winning it. Theres no doubt it suffered hugely when the Ulster Champions were denied automatic entry to quarter/semi finals. I hope im wrong but it seems like a case of rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic!

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 02/09/2015 10:59:22    1780468

Well thought out piece Marlon_JD. We know the provincial system is not going away any day soon so a re-formatted provincial championship would have some merit. I think most supporters' fear though would be games that are totally one-sided. With your proposals I think teams on completely different levels would inevitably meet up at some stage.

I know its a completely off-the-wall suggestion but what about allowing lower graded counties bring in personnel from the stronger counties ? e.g. Mayo could field lad's from Galway and/or Clare who are outside their own county's senior panel etc. Also depending on their own progression Down, Derry etc could have their best players line out with Antrim should Antrim emerge as Ulster champs. Agreed limits on the number of players being brought in would apply.

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1060 - 02/09/2015 11:21:34    1780487