What should be done to negate this apparent disadvantage ?
At a minimum, bfing back 4 AI QFs.
I'd prefer a Muns v Lein Champs Playoff - winner to AI SFs, loser to one of 3 AI QFs.
Playoff could be played 2 weeks after Muns Final, QF 2 weeks after that, and SF 2 weeks after that
(one week later than now).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 25/08/2015 20:08:43    1776228

Sure it is even longer for the Leinster champions, why is it only when it effects Munster that it becomes an issue?

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 25/08/2015 20:26:02    1776239

It's not longer for Leinster it's the same. The problem is every match is Munster is a battle royale so to win Munster means peaking early in the season. Then you have a long break and you need to peak again.

Kilkenny don't need to peak early as you know yourself Pinkie.

Anyway petty provincial differences aside, we already know the four quarter finals worked really well from 2005 - 2007. This is coming from someone who watched his team lose a quarter final each year.

Wexford should be in favour of this? no?

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 25/08/2015 21:20:39    1776268

Plus two more teams get to play an extra game. If it was done like before you are talking the last six plus Clare and Limerick would have been this year's quarter finalists.

If I'm Cheddar Plunkett in Laois I'm telling my players to aim for a quarter final berth. It's straightforward enough, the provincial finalists would face four teams coming through the qualifiers with the provincial winners getting the lowest ranked teams.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 25/08/2015 21:49:47    1776288

Surely the 5 week wait helps them recover from this battle royale Munster championship, no? And arent there clubs etc to be considered?

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 26/08/2015 10:37:38    1776361

Battle Royale? Go away outa that! Most games in Munster were damp squibs.
Time to do away with the provincial championships and have a championship that gives every team the same chance.

Barnowl94 (Galway) - Posts: 3150 - 26/08/2015 11:01:16    1776383

Scrap the 1st Sunday in September, bring it forward by a month at least.

m_the_d (None) - Posts: 1099 - 26/08/2015 11:19:51    1776397

I don't see any disadvantage. if anything it's a plus. Munster teams are more battle hardened no ? I don't see it anyway. In general Wexford have no problem with these mighty munster teams in championship hurling. Kilkenny can deal with this lay off year in year out and Tipp are nearly as good as them.

I've believed for a few years now it's nearly better to go out of the province early. It didn't do tipp any harm the last few years. They went and won munster only to be beaten by Galway then.

I don't think this year can be used as an example for anything as it's been pretty awful from start to finish.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2660 - 26/08/2015 11:20:26    1776398

I think five weeks is a long time to wait for provincial winners to play an All Ireland semi final final.I would not use it as an excuse though.I cant recall off hand,but im sure lots of those losses were close affairs,like Tipp v Galway.Leinster is quite competetive at long last,with the addition of Galway and a strong Dublin.Wexford are a coming team.Offaly,Antrim,Laois,Westmeath and Carlow are a good bit off the pace.Munster has always been exciting to watch.Granted,sometimes the standard might be questionable,but the games are generally close fought and good to watch.If the GAA calender could reschedule the fixture list whereby the provincial winners just hjave a three week break,i think it would be a better system.Also,i wouldnt be against an open draw,but as we all know,the provincial councils would never let that happen.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 26/08/2015 11:35:35    1776405

Ok, would you agree on 8 team quarter finals then?

More Munster teams have come through the qualifiers to get to the final ( Tipp 2010, Clare and Cork 2013, Tipp 2014) than Munster champions (Tipp 2011) this decade. So Munster teams have no problem making the final. It's the Munster Champions that seem to struggle.

Agreed that this year's championship hasn't been great but it has nothing to do with this debate. I was using it for illustrative purposes to say two more teams would have got the chance to play a quarter final that got knocked out sooner (Clare and Limerick).

Barnowl and Pinkie, what was the last Munster championship match you attended? This year's Munster Final was one of the most intense, hard fought matches I have watched live. I know it wasn't a great spectacle for the neutral but it was very difficult to win. I was at the Leinster Final too and it didn't seem as intense in comparison.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 26/08/2015 12:38:21    1776455

Actually, before the semi-final Brendan Maher said that the break is exactly what Tipp needed to get injuries right & to come in fresh.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 26/08/2015 13:00:51    1776481

The best hurling championship since the 1990s (prior to the 2013 classic) was 2007. This was the last year in which the Leinster and Munster champions had to play an All-Ireland QF against whomever came out of the qualifiers. What happened that year was that Waterford, having beaten Limerick easily in the Munster final, were unlucky and drew a strong Cork team in the QF, which was played 3 weeks later. Waterford needed two gruelling, epic matches to beat Cork, after which they faced a Limerick team who had progressed fairly quietly into the semi-final.

The gap was only one week between the Waterford-Cork replay and the semi-final v Limerick. Waterford were favourites but were flat as a pancake in that match and Limerick beat them scoring 5 goals.

After what happened to Waterford, the talk from the Munster council was that it was scandalous that the Munster champions should have to play a quarter-final, so the championship was changed so that the provincial champions got a bye straight into the All-Ireland SF, 5 week break and all.

Basically, the problem with 2007 was that while the layout of the championship was producing more matches, and exciting matches, there was too big a gap between the Munster Final and All-Ireland QF (3 weeks) giving very little wriggle room in the event of a replay, which duly happened. So instead of doing the sensible thing of keeping the championship layout but tweaking it so the All-Ireland QF would only be 2 weeks after the provincial final, the GAA threw the baby out with the bath water, and scrapped the QF altogether for provincial champions.

Now we're getting complaints from Munster again that their champions have to endure a 5 week break before playing teams who have been battle-hardened in the qualifiers and quarter-finals! After pushing so hard to by-pass the said same quarter-finals!

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 26/08/2015 13:42:19    1776535

Well put, Ballydalane.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 26/08/2015 14:16:34    1776566

I dont really know why such a big deal is being made out of this!! If teams are good enough they will win, if they are not good enough they will loose..simple as that!!

A pet peeve of mine is this notion that the Munster championship is a game of attrition...it is not!! Infact the quality can be very poor! Yes going back 10 - 20 years ago it was attritional but not any more!!

How come a bigger issue of the soft draw the Munster losers get in the second round!! How is it fair that Munster teams are kept on one side of the draw and are drawn to face Leinster teams. Everyone knows the likes of Offaly, Laois, Westmeath (teams in the pot this year) are more easily beatable. But why cant it be open draw and fair rather than handing a team a more favourable draw!! Thats a much bigger issue imo

jkiamasnake (Galway) - Posts: 81 - 26/08/2015 14:27:51    1776578

But the fact is a Munster team is more likely to get to an all-Ireland final now through the back door.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 26/08/2015 15:19:53    1776625

ballydalane you are right there. I can remember the uproar over that and its what changed the way it was run. Its ok as long as someone from Munster is winning and thats the truth of it. The provincial championships in Hurling need to be scrapped but the Munster counties won't agree to anything near that happening. They blame the difficulty of winning munster as the reason for not winning the All Ireland but yet won't scrap munster in order to develop hurling and win an All Ireland.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1804 - 26/08/2015 17:10:42    1776713

If a Munster team is winning the province almost every year it probably becomes easier to manage that 5 week gap.
Kilkenny just have a routine now and they can manage that gap plus they have some of the best hurlers in the game mentally and physically also so the 5 week thing with them is nothing they are just rearing to go.

Plus the Leinster Champions also have an extra week to prepare for the final which is nearly always Kilkenny. So in theory they have their homework done on the system and it proves in their success.

The last 3 years in Munster 2013 , 2014 and 2015 has seen different winners and none qualified for the final.Limerick & Cork badly fared but from a Tipp perspective I don't think we can say we'd have beaten Galway should we have come through the back door.

In Leinster there was 3 different winners in 2012 , 2013 & 2014 with two of them reaching a final and bear in mind Dublin were not far off beating Cork in 2013.

If a player / team can overcome that mental aspect of a 5 week break and they are good enough no reason why they shouldn't win. however look that's the beauty of hurling. if the same teams were getting to the final the whole time there would be out cry for competition changes so you cant win really!!!

WildPundit (Tipperary) - Posts: 1709 - 26/08/2015 17:14:49    1776716

ballydalane
County: Kilkenny
Now we're getting complaints from Munster again that their champions have to endure a 5 week break before playing teams who have been battle-hardened in the qualifiers and quarter-finals! After pushing so hard to by-pass the said same quarter-finals!

Who from Munster is complaining this year? This thread is the first time I've seen anyone mention it. As keeper said above, Padraic Maher actually stated that the break was a godsend, and that he wouldn't have been fit for a quarter-final.

But I agree with you, the GAA got rid of the 4 quarter-final system when they didn't need to, they did the same with getting rid of the qualifer round-robin group stage, it was a knee-jerk and short sighted reaction. Happens too often. I'd like to see the 4 quarter-final system re-introduced, but then people would ask what the point of winning the province is, if you get to the same stage regardless. I wouldn't have that problem with it, but any change to the current system is going to be problematic somehow, because the provincial system just doesn't work for hurling any more (maybe it never really did). The best change we could make is to scrap the provincial system, and I think we'll see growing support for that from here on in.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 26/08/2015 17:42:48    1776744

Its been raised umpteen times already on this forum. As long as the provincial system remains it's impossible to have a championship that's fair and equal to all participants. Again, as its been stated umpteen times already, that's not going to happen as the provincials councils have too much of a vested interest in maintaining the status quo

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1060 - 27/08/2015 13:25:36    1777065

Ballydalane nailed it there.

We had 4 quarter finals in 2005, 2006 & 2007. As He/She said, everything was going fine until 2007 and what happened to Waterford sparked a change. The samne Waterford side who got no benefit from the 6 week layoff as Munster Champions in 2002, or 2004, lost the 06 semi final with a free hitting the post, then with the tweaked format in 2007 after beating Kilkenny in the NHL final, winning the Munster title, fell victim to the format again. Talk about no luck.

The fairest way is a group system. How about the Leinster champions from last year qualify to play in a round robin Munster Championship the year after :-)

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 27/08/2015 15:37:47    1777159