well having just returned from the u21,i can only lament what a waste of time the out of date system of provincial champions is.antrim and galway play their first matches and prove yet again why the provincial system needs to change if hurling is to prosper.

with all due respect to antrim,while they kept the score down with 2-3 extra men,that was as far as their ambition went.

surely,it is time to look at this who setup.either move these 2 to leinster like their seniors,or completely abandon the provincial structure and groups of 4,or go with straight knock-out from the word go with everybody starting from an even keel.

i know it is unfair to pick on antrim but to be honest clare or kilkenny or tipp would have been more worthy of an all ireland semi final place.

and at the end of the day,what good did 1 game do either of these teams and promotion of hurling in their counties?absolutely none.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 22/08/2015 21:14:37    1774375

A very good post, I agree but it seems those with the power to change things are probably incapable of doing so.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4895 - 22/08/2015 21:30:51    1774383

Agree with you perfect.
Point of information,that was Antrims third championship game this year,after beating Down and Derry in Ulster.
And they got closer to ye than Kilkenny did!!!! As did kildare who lost to Wicklow in the B championship Im told,but were closer to ye than the cats!!!!!
The real injustice is the unfair treatment of the Galway U21s by leinster.This years team looked highly talented and skillful against a highly motivated,brilliant and battle hardened Limerick side who came through the munster minefield ,beating Tipp and then Clare in Ennis!!
First half was unbelievable hurling,and the way Galway shot six points in a row and drew level before halftime,shows the potential of the side......if only they had a better puckout strategy......something you realise needed to be done watching game...but too late now as they are out of championship.
For U21 grade......the champions league format would be brilliant,as it a fantastic standard of hurling...pity all that training for most of the guys for one match........Tipp,clare,Waterford,galway,limerick,wexford.........all great teams this year but too many of them only spotted once!!! More matches needed.

carrigrua (Galway) - Posts: 363 - 22/08/2015 21:54:50    1774394

Perfect 10 - Many won't disagree with your comments. However if you are recommending a complete change of structures based on Wexford u21's beating Antrim u21's by 12 points, and talking about Antrim and Galway being unworthy of gracing a semi final. You should look at some of the wide margin beatings handed out in league and championship this year:- Galway beat Cork by 12 in 1/4 finals, Clare beat Offaly by 20 pts in the qualifiers, Kilkenny beat Wexford by 24 in the Leinster semis. I could go on but I hope you see my point. Having a pop at Galway and Antrim solves nothing. Many of us are aware that some serious thought needs to be given to how hurling is structured. There is a certain apathy on behalf of Croke Park and some provincial councils in terms of how the game should be developed outside the top 3 or 4. This wold take significant effort and investment. I am not sure the will is there.

Oh, and I was proud of how the 'gather up' that was Antrim yesterday, performed. If we had been able to prepare for another couple of nights had brought something close to our full team, you never know. You may not have commented at all.

Glensboy (Antrim) - Posts: 286 - 23/08/2015 09:23:35    1774409

Perfect 10 - Why are you complaining about Galway when Leinster last winter refused to let out minors and under 21s in? I agree that there needs to be change at all levels of the game. If camogie can run an All Ireland competition, then why cant hurling at all levels and have the provincials as separate competitions. There are only a max of 16 counties who play at a serious level and all but Antrim are north of the Galway Dublin line. I can understand the money aspect of provincials at senior level but below that, it is as you say, a joke.

galwaydublin (Galway) - Posts: 226 - 23/08/2015 10:55:07    1774440

Its not Galway's or Antrim's fault. Self serving individuals in the Leinster Council deemed it appropriate to keep their underage competitions a closed shop. Until the all powerful provincial councils relinquish their control the totally outdated and unfair system of championship in nearly all grades and codes will continue. So much for promoting hurling.

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1060 - 23/08/2015 11:09:35    1774447

You are right perfect 10. However, the other posters have some good points too.

Antrim is the wasteland of hurling. while it might soon be joined by Cork, we are not as bad yet. If central council GAA stepped in and gave massive funds to coaching hurling in Belfast to the same degree as it has in Dublin, then we are likely to have more competitive Antrim sides.

Cork got hammered by Waterford who lost to Clare who in turn lost Limerick. Kilkenny were hammered by Wexford so neither of those 'traditional' counties can argue for a place in the semi finals. Galway should not be automatically be in the semi-finals but they were knocked back a place in Leinster..what are they to do?

A straight knockout would be useful I think.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 23/08/2015 11:25:26    1774454

The great thing about the U21 championship is the knock out, no 2nd chances. Once you are out your out.

But lads, in Leinster we have Wexford, Carlow, Kildare, Dublin, Offaly, Kilkenny, Westmeath and Laois in this championship. Why should Leinster accept 2 more? When is everybody going to stop bowing to the "never see no evil" Munster council? Surely if there are 8 teams in Leinster who compete reasonably well at this level, the Munster council should be taking these 2 counties?

It is gone beyond a joke lads. The stranglehold of the Munster Council is a real problem for both the expansion and the promotion of hurling. There are 16 teams competing in this championship, it could not be more perfect for either 4 groups of 4 or a straight knock-out.

But geography and logic were never the GAA's strong points....

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 23/08/2015 18:44:20    1774757

Its hard to know what the solution is on this.You are right though - it is not right that Antrim & Galway enter at the All Ire semi final stage.Not their fault of course,but this has to change.An open draw would be interesting but of course the provincial councils wudnt agree to that.I think Galway would like their minor and U21 teams in Leinster but some of the other counties oppose this.Im not sure what Antrims preference is.Maybe some of the Antrim posters have a better idea?Either way,this system has to change.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 23/08/2015 18:58:23    1774768

Pinkie
County: Wexford
Posts: 3341

1774757
The great thing about the U21 championship is the knock out, no 2nd chances. Once you are out your out.

But lads, in Leinster we have Wexford, Carlow, Kildare, Dublin, Offaly, Kilkenny, Westmeath and Laois in this championship. Why should Leinster accept 2 more? When is everybody going to stop bowing to the "never see no evil" Munster council? Surely if there are 8 teams in Leinster who compete reasonably well at this level, the Munster council should be taking these 2 counties?

It is gone beyond a joke lads. The stranglehold of the Munster Council is a real problem for both the expansion and the promotion of hurling. There are 16 teams competing in this championship, it could not be more perfect for either 4 groups of 4 or a straight knock-out.

But geography and logic were never the GAA's strong points....

Galway are in the Leinster senior hurling championship. They were in the Munster senior championship between 1957 and 1967. That is 10 years. They are only Leinster 7/8 years? Would it not make more sense for them that they are in the same provinicial championship at minor/ u21 as at senior level?

Antrim are cut adrift a little bit geographically and some of the Leinster teams are marginally nearer them so they choose this.

However, I think we need to do away with provincial councils. The hurling geography of Ireland is very small indeed. If we are honest, the majority of the geographical space on the land has no hurling interest/stronghold - all of Ulster bar North Antrm and Ards - all of connacht bar East Galway and a tiny part of Roscommon - in Leinster only Kilkenny, South Offaly and south Carlow, part of Wexford and Laois, Dublin has clubs - in Munster vast swathes such as most of kerry, west Clare, west and north-west Cork, west Limerick etc has very little hurling..

effectively the hurling area in this country is tiny..yet we have divisional boards (n Cork/tipp), county boards, provincial boards, central council all there..layers of bureaucracy in effect that we don't need...singling out the Munster council is wrong in my opinion..we don't need any..

a case in point..there are almost as many clubs in Cork as there are in Connacht...Cork has a bigger population than Connacht ..do we need a connacht council..county board and a central council are enuogh

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 23/08/2015 19:47:32    1774797

BennyBunny- Some good points there. Antrim are in Leinster because, geographically, this makes sense. I know there are many opinions about the success of this experiment. I feel it was pretty much doomed to failure without all under age teams following the same path. The rub here is that this would have required major investment. That's the end of that then. The powers that be are just paying lip service to the development of the game in places like Ulster. As an example the Antrim u21's played Wexford in Semple stadium. An olive branch to play this up the country a bit would have enabled more ulster gaels, and others, the chance to see this game. Its not the reason we were beaten but a gesture wouldn't go amiss.

Glensboy (Antrim) - Posts: 286 - 24/08/2015 11:24:35    1775051

There are currently 4 teams in the U21 Ulster hurling championship proper. Looking at the scores in the final & semi-finals there doesn't appear to be much between Antrim, Derry & Down. Armagh should be in the 'B' championship as Antrim hammered them in the semi. But that Antrim side can hurl as they showed for periods against a brilliant Wexford team on Saturday.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 24/08/2015 12:31:37    1775140

Keeper, the ability has always been there, the problem is the 100% dedication and commitment that is required isn't.

Which is illustrated every year with walk outs and non attendance

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 24/08/2015 12:43:11    1775155

Down and Derry have no business in the U21 A championship, waste of time. If Antrim want to play in All Ireland q finals or semi finals at minor/u21 let them earn that right by competing and winning in Leinster rather than getting a freebie every year by winning the 'Ulster championship'. Antrim have nearly twice as many hurling clubs than Derry, Down and Armagh combined so the Ulster championship is a farce designed to give Antrim a run out before the usual beating by southern opposition.

Antrim have the club numbers etc to be competing at a far higher level, some of that is Crokers fault but a lot of it is due to their own internal failings which they need to recognise and address - let Antrim into Leinster at all ages and put the rest of the Ulster teams into a proper B championship were they belong - don't let closeness of games mask the fact that u21 championship was very poor standard this yr and a mockery of the preparation made by other counties - for example the Derry and Down teams trained once all yr before their semi final meeting!

PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 24/08/2015 13:00:59    1775186

Antrim have nearly twice as many hurling clubs than Derry, Down and Armagh combined so the Ulster championship is a farce designed to give Antrim a run out before the usual beating by southern opposition

We have 28 teams playing across all 4 divisions. Are you saying that Derry, Down and Armagh have only 14 teams between all 3 Counties? I find this statement hard to believe given Down alone have near that number of teams when you go in and look at their fixtures on their website. And Derry have 11 teams playing Senior league alone.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 24/08/2015 13:23:07    1775229

Antrim didnt half try against Wexford and Wexford didnt even need to start the engine to get over the line.
As another poster said its commitment.
I'm just gonna talk from a Munster point of view and I know my own county were in training since about March and playing challenge games. They played both Galway and Kilkenny this year before bowing out to Limerick.
I dont think the Antrim lads have that commitment so early on in the year and if you dont have it early on its hard to get committed half way through a season.
Also that Galway U.21 Team 10 of them were part of the Galway Intermediate AI winning team so it wasnt exactly their first game together.
If Galway go into Leinster it will stop the progress of other U.21 teams trying to break through. That seems to be the issue with the council there. You will have a saturated championship like in Munster where any of the 5 teams can win it. In Leinster at the moment there are only 3 in Wexford , Dublin & Kilkenny.
Something does need to be done as you lose 1 game and effectivley your out. Plus also I think if players are U.21 and playing Senior too that's a burn out issue and hence why it wont be changed.

WildPundit (Tipperary) - Posts: 1709 - 24/08/2015 14:09:25    1775285

This thread has me looking back at some old results of Ulster teams and there's an oddity or 2 there. For example at one point, Donegal, Derry and Down each had more Ulster hurling titles than they had Ulster football titles.

Also, while Galway, Cork and Dublin might spring to mind when you think of a provincial double, Monaghan managed the impressive feat in 1914 of winning both the Ulster SHC and the Ulster SFC!

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1643 - 24/08/2015 14:44:17    1775319

At the moment Antiem won Ulster and have the right to be there..

Firstly I'm involved in Underage hurling so I believe I can speak with some reality of the problems:-

1. We had no Armagh County Hurling coach last yr or this yr... money does matter - If Croke Park / GAA cared pick one (ONE) coach for a year and pick the areas within the county to focus on , in Armagh 12 primary schools - there is no point going to Crossmaglen ( it will never take off there) - focus on where we can grow from

2. The U-21 Championship is a southern competition ( reality) - Croke Park want to stick to the present format.... The ulster u-21 Champ is played off in July each yr when most are on hols ( reality) . The ulster council wanted to play it earlier in the yr ( but were refused - madness but reality)
3. Having the Ulster representatives ( usually Antrim) play in Semple Stadium each yr is unfair... can we have a rota and play one semi-final in Antim/Derry or Armagh - can you imagine Wexford travelling up to Ballycastle.....
4. The Minor B and U-21 B is a great competition but gets no coverage..... let the winners back into the competition A grade
5.To say that Antrim don't deserve to be there - were does that end - schools level, club etc

Fact - there are excellant hurlers in Antrim - In the last 5yrs they have won Senior/Intermediate/Junior Club All-Irelands and multiple All-Ireland B Schools titles... the U-21 hurlers were beaten by Wexord( only 10 points) but the argument suggests that beacuse Ulsterhurling is poor therefore they shouldn't be in a semi-final....... could we have the same argument about Leinster Underage Football!!!! (apart from Dublin)
Why was the All-Ireland Minor B venve switched from Newry to Newbridge at the last minute when all previous draws were home draws....

when i was growing up Antrim regularly defeated Dublin..... what happened -Organisation, planning, money!!!!!

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1671 - 24/08/2015 14:53:21    1775336

Benny bunny, the parts of the country with very little hurling are minuscule, population-wise (with the exception of west ulster). Theres plenty hurling clubs everywhere else in Ireland, especially at underage, before the football nazis get their claws on the players

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1054 - 24/08/2015 15:01:12    1775345

Offside there are circa 30 clubs hurling in Antrim which is almost as many as clubs like Clare etc, by the way I'm assuming you are counting the Tyrone clubs when you say there are 11 clubs playing in their league.

Reality is Antrim have it easy in Ulster and are more than happy to 'hog the limelight' of the annual run out in an all Ireland semi or quarter final hence their opposition to the team Ulster idea as they feel it is a threat to their privileged position - if they are really interested in developing go into the Leinster championship at all grades, ultimately it will do hurling in Antrim and indeed Ulster more good.

Claiming a 12 pt defeat while playing two sweepers is some sort of moral victory is an embarassment to all the good Antrim hurling people, at least the Antrim miners who were well prepared by Ciaran Kearney went out to hurl and compete, for me Saturday was an embarassment to Ulster hurling.

Stop the farce, Antrim into Leinster and the rest of Ulster into the All Ireland B, Meath play Wicklow in the All Ireland u21 B on TG4 in couple of was of little doubt Down, Derry etc could compete for a place there.

PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 24/08/2015 15:52:30    1775400