In the Jimmy McGuinness Championship, the following will have qualified for the Top 16:

Provincial champions:
Dublin
Monaghan
Mayo
Kerry

Best 12 from the league excluding provincial champions:
Cork
Donegal
Down
Roscommon
Tyrone
Derry
Meath
Galway
Cavan
Laois
Fermanagh
Armagh

In my own humble opinion in such a scenario the provincial winners should be given at home game against the 4 lowest league placed teams e.g.:
Dublin v Armagh
Monaghan v Fermanagh
Mayo v Laois
Kerry v Cavan

The middle 8 then should be in an open draw with the first team out given a home game e.g.:
Donegal v Cork
Down v Roscommon
Derry v Tyrone
Galway v Meath

The provincial semi-final pairings should be retained. The winner of the games featuring provincial champions should be drawn against a team from the middle 8 in the All-Ireland quarter-finals e.g.:
Kerry/Cavan v Derry/Tyrone
Monaghan/Fermanagh v Galway/Meath
Dublin/Armagh v Down/Roscommon
Mayo/Laois v Donegal/Cork

The Jimmy McGuinness B Championship will feature the following:
Westmeath
Kildare
Tipperary
Sligo
Clare
Limerick
Longford
Offaly
Louth
Wexford
Antrim
Leitrim
Carlow
Waterford
Wicklow
London

The winner of the B championship will be assured of a Top 16 place in the following year. They will be joined by the 4 provincial winners and the next best 11 from the league.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 22/07/2015 21:35:51    1757795

It's worth a 2 year trial

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 22/07/2015 21:54:41    1757805

If the B winner gets promoted how is the relegation sorted, multiple playoffs or league?

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 23/07/2015 08:52:16    1757814

I don't think it does enough to improve the standard of the so-called weaker counties but it's definitely worth a 2 year trial. The GAA should not only listen more but also proactively implement some of the proposals from forward-thinkers like Jim McGuinness. A great ambassador for the GAA.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7337 - 23/07/2015 09:06:13    1757818

Based on that idea 3 of the current last 12 would be confined to the B competition. Two beaten provincial finalists excluded for competing for Sam. This highlights the flaws in McGuinness's idea.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 23/07/2015 09:22:11    1757821

I just have reservations about a B All-Ireland, would people actually turn up for the games? I have serious doubts about that. Also the Gaa are poor at promoting their main competitions so could you imagine how poor they'd be at promoting a B competition, in fact we don't even have to imagine, look at how bad they were at promoting the Tommy Murphy cup!

I know personally that if Meath failed to qualify for Sam and ended up in the B AI, I'd probably still go to the games but it would feel like a wasted year, hard to get excited about it.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 23/07/2015 09:27:29    1757825

tirawleybaron

Two beaten provincial finalists excluded for competing for Sam. This highlights the flaws in McGuinness's idea.

This would be my main concern as well, I don't like the idea of a beaten provincial finalist not automatically qualifying for Sam. I think it would be an insult to teams like Sligo and Westmeath in particular who done so well to even make their provincial finals (only to come undone against better opposition) and then get dumped into a B competition. Especially considering both Roscommon and Meath would qualify for Sam through the League and they were both beaten by Sligo and Westmeath respectively, that would be the ultimate kick in the nuts!

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 23/07/2015 09:41:44    1757828

I have to agree with Htaem. Would very much struggle to get excited about a B Championship! I would like a Champions league format with 8 groups of 4. Gives a lot to play for. The back door has already belittled the provincial championship.....

lilyabu (Kildare) - Posts: 32 - 23/07/2015 09:56:14    1757834

A strong province like Ulster is being rewarded with a good representation in the Top 16. While I have sympathy for Westmeath and Sligo in such a scenario, it does reflect their lower league status and possibly easy-ish route to a final. They would have the same opportunity as everyone else to perform in the league. The second tier championship would offer the prize of a top 16 place in the following year. It's fair enough to reward consistency in the league but to open up the opportunity to all through the provincial championships or through winning the second tier championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 23/07/2015 10:09:06    1757841

No matter what system is introduced it will not keep everybody happy. The McGuinness proposal is the best one I have seen yet as it keeps the league and provincial championships and makes them important in terms of seeding. I understand the concerns about the 'B' championship but he also put forward proposals to market it and make it popular. The key to this would be making sure the B championship means something.

I think it looks like it could really making the championship more exciting. There will be some teams hard done by e.g. Sligo and Westmeath as beaten provincial finalist this year. However those teams would have a great chance of winning the B championship.

JimTheLegend (Donegal) - Posts: 247 - 23/07/2015 11:00:50    1757871

His idea is excellent.

Even if you narrowly miss out on getting into the A championship there is a lot to play for in the B championship.

The only flaw though is I don't think it gives enough levels to cover the varied ability of teams across the land. 3 tiers are probably needed.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 23/07/2015 11:01:41    1757873

legendzxix

A strong province like Ulster is being rewarded with a good representation in the Top 16. While I have sympathy for Westmeath and Sligo in such a scenario, it does reflect their lower league status and possibly easy-ish route to a final. They would have the same opportunity as everyone else to perform in the league.

But in this scenario we'd be valuing the League pretty much above the provincial championships, because weaker teams very rarely win their provincial but they do occasionally qualify for their provincial finals and I think they have to be rewarded for that (granted the structures do need reforming though). Now I'm not a traditionalist, in fact I generally try to move away from tradition and try new things but Gaa supporters just don't have the same interest in the league as they do in the provincials so I don't really think it makes sense to give the league 12 places and the provincials only 4.

Personally I'd like to see a World Cup system where all 8 provincial finalists get top seed (with champions getting priority to keep them apart till an AI semi final), and the league is used to seed the rest. This would guarantee every team 3 games, every team would get a shot at the main competition before a potential B AI, the importance of the league would be increased and the importance of the provincials would be retained even though they'd technically be removed from the All-Ireland championship.

Ps, Westmeath didn't have an easy run to the Leinster final, they had to play 3 games, including ourselves who they'd previously never beaten in championship football and we'd already beaten them twice this year by a combined total of 17 points!

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 23/07/2015 11:10:11    1757876

All formats are open to debate. Possibly provincial runners-up in Ulster and Leinster should also qualify automatically for the top 16. The Connacht and Munster runners-up due to a smaller championship could possibly play-off if both have not qualified through the league. If one of the two runners-up has already qualified, the other can get through without the need of the play-off. This year Sligo would go through due to Cork qualifying through the league.

The Top 16 would then consist of:
4 provincial champions
3 provincial runners-up
1 second tier champion from the year before
8 best league placed teams outside of the above

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 23/07/2015 11:44:25    1757900

JimTheLegend

There will be some teams hard done by e.g. Sligo and Westmeath as beaten provincial finalist this year. However those teams would have a great chance of winning the B championship.

But would they really want to win a B All-Ireland having done well to make their provincial final? Surely they deserve a place in the hunt for Sam, again especially considering Roscommon and Meath (two teams they've beaten!!!) would qualify.

On paper McGuinness's idea looked ok but I think this year's championship has highlighted some major flaws with it.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 23/07/2015 11:45:28    1757902

as worthy of a trial as any other plan out there to shake up football

hurler in the ditch (Louth) - Posts: 439 - 23/07/2015 12:11:17    1757919

legendzxix

That's true, everything is open to debate and I know there are many opinions out there about new championship structures amd on order to get it rogjt we havw to debate the issue. Personally I just think that if beaten provincial finalists don't automatically qualify for the last 16, they certainly should have a playoff chance or something to get there. But I really don't think it would be fair to dismiss them just because their league status doesn't qualify them, I think that would devalue the provincials for weaker teams.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 23/07/2015 12:12:18    1757921

Also the sides knocked out early in championship would be kicking their heels. I know Jim did say run provincials off faster but sides that go far in provincials may have short turn around before last sixteen knockouts


Personally I like lots about Jim's proposals but I'd make the 16 up as follows

Eight provincial finalists
Last years B champion
Next best seven sides in the league

The Provincial champions qualify for quarter finals

The other eight sides battle it out with four winners taking on beaten provincial finalists.
And the four winenrs emerging go to Quarter finals


In this scenario

We'd have

Mayo
Dublin
Kerry
Monaghan
in quarter finals

Playoffs would be
Lets say Armagh won last years B championship
Other seven sides would be
Derry
Tyrone
Roscommon
Down
Meath
Galway
Cavan

so lets say it was also seeded in this round with B champion top seed

Armagh v Cavan
Tyrone v Galway
Derry v Meath
Down v Roscommon

Talk about four brilliant match ups with it all on the line
Again seeding could be maintained or open draw
So beaten provincial finalists come on

Armagh v Sligo
Tyrone v Westmeath
Meath v Donegal
Roscommon v Cork

Winners take on provincial winners in quarter finals

Games could be played out at proper intervals and provincal championships wouldnt have to be squashed into too small a window

B Championship then would be

Laois v London
Kildare v Wicklow
Fermanagh v Waterford
Tipperary v Carlow
Clare v Leitrim
Limerick v Antrim
Louth v Offaly
Wexford v Longford

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 187 - 23/07/2015 13:08:00    1757959

The key thing in terms of interest in a B championship is to give it the same billing as the race for Sam - and why shouldn't it? Trophies at inter-county level aren't handed out to anyone who wants them, they are hard earned and the matches should be given that status. That's why I think they should run parallel to the Sam Maguire.

I'd agree beaten provincial finalists should get a shot at Sam as well, it's rare for a weaker county to win their provincial but they get to finals often and should be rewarded for that.

It's a great idea with the main stumbling block being interest in the B championship. I don't see why it wouldn't be of interest. People talk about up and coming teams like Roscommon and Tipperary - well maybe if they experience winning a national competition it will give them a boost going in to challenge in their provincials the following year, and build from there.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 23/07/2015 15:26:30    1758068

I also loathe the idea of any sort of Champions League format - there are just too many games with those types of ideas. There is zero room for club championships to be run off - somebody mentioned some teams twiddling their thumbs if they get knocked out of the provincials early with Jim's proposal, well why can't that county run off a few club championship games while they're waiting? If you take this year as your example, Tyrone would have been knocked out of Ulster in May and potentially waiting 2 months for the Sam Maguire race to start, what's to stop them running off their club games in the meantime?

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 23/07/2015 15:33:57    1758073

Htaem I take your point about the beaten provincial finalists. They could have played very well and still end up in the B championship. Shaggkev has a good solution though, all 8 provincial finalists get into the B championship.

The big concern would be for everybody to embrace the B championship, it would be dead in the water if this didn't happen. How come intermediate and junior levels are ok at club level but not county? What makes them work? Is it fair to say some clubs that play senior and have no hope would prefer to play intermediate and have a chance of winning it?

JimTheLegend (Donegal) - Posts: 247 - 23/07/2015 16:13:35    1758100