This may sound silly but hear me out. I will use Roscommon as an example. Just promoted to division 1, poor performance against Sligo. May well be out by july 4th. This may sound bad but my thinking is Roscommon and teams like them i.e. Tipperary and Cavan should peak for the league, get accustomed to playing a higher standard of teams and then championship success will follow. I think our aim for the next 1-2 years has to be to stay in Div 1. We are not like kerry/Dublin who can peak for the championship. We need to play these teams week in week out. This may mean poor championship performances for the next couple of years but I know if we stay competitive in the division, success will follow. Nobody will win the all Ireland outside division 1. We need to stay there. Thoughts?

Rosfan (Roscommon) - Posts: 778 - 22/06/2015 21:44:29    1741277

I think the Rossies are a much better championship side than they showed the other night and they'll prove it against Cavan. Sligo deserved the win on the night, they look very good and had prepared well for that. No point in the Rossies having an inferiority complex about division 1 teams. Saturday night's results shows upsets are always possible. I hope ye go far in this years championship.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7336 - 22/06/2015 21:57:33    1741291

I can never understand why teams in the lower leagues don't put maximum effort into the league (especially with a younger team). The higher the division, the higher the standard. You can only lift your own standards if playing against the better teams.
Dublin, Kerry, Cork, Dublin and Mayo have been operating in Div 1 for a long time (bar the odd blip) which gives them the opportunity to develop players at a high level of competition. This means they can develop a conveyor belt of players who go from U21 to a high level of football..

A lot of counties have underage success which isn't translated into senior because they never get exposed to the top level of the game on a regular basis.

Roscommon and Cavan are a good example. How man games per year do they play against Dublin, Kerry, Cork, Mayo and Donegal? One or two a year won't develop the talent they have and those players will drop their standards and develop bad habits which prevents them getting to the highest level.

With all the fuss about the weaker counties and the championship structure, most people forget that its the current structure which keeps the strong counties where they are and keeps the other counties down.

Both minor and U21 championships have a wider spread of winners but its the senior league/championship structure which keeps the weaker counties down.

TO answer your question, Roscommon should do their utmost to stay in div 1 next year and try to stay 3-4 years at that level. Then they can start talking seriously about all irelands.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 23/06/2015 08:30:33    1741304

For me, it makes little sense peaking for the championship when your playing weaker sides in the league. Doesn't matter then if you have peaked in the championship chances are you will be beaten sooner rather than later, at least if you have the knowledge you competed in the league against top opposition you know you can compete. Derry last year aside.

Rosfan (Roscommon) - Posts: 778 - 23/06/2015 09:11:18    1741317

I remember reading in the book "Working on a Dream" about the Waterford footballers and all they really cared about was getting out of Division 4.

They certainly seemed to prioritise the league over the Championship as they had no hope of winning the Munster Championship but had a chance of winning Division 4.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 23/06/2015 09:11:59    1741318

Excellent opening post.

Yes - I think Roscommon's priority should be staying in Division 1 over the next few years. Ultimately, they have a chance of winning Connacht as there is only one other Division 1 team is in there with them.

If I was a manager of any team outside of Division 1, I would be using the championship to blood players for the league (especially the qualifier rounds). If players are going to put in so much dedication, they might as well have a fighting chance of winning a trophy.There were some hammerings in the league as well but in general these competitions are fairer and all teams are generally at their standard based on previous performance and each team has a chance to move up the tables.

The championship on the other hand is only really geared for the top teams. The back door ensures that if we have a big shock (Clare v Cork in 1997, Limerick v Cork 2000), the bigger team will regroup and make them pay in later rounds. The championship is also not equal. Donegal thus far have played one Divsion 1 team. They play another Division 1 team on Saturday and another if they win that. To get to the quarter final they will have played 3 Division 1 sides. The other contenders - Kerry (one), Dublin (none) and Mayo (none) will have played fewer. I am not suggesting that the ultimate winners (if not Donegal) will be somehow undeserving as one could counter argue that Donegal are the beneficiaries in this system. However, what we can say with certainty is that it is not equal. If all teams focussed on the league, then each year the best team would always win and it is fair.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 23/06/2015 09:24:08    1741324

If Jim McGuiness proposals were adopted then the work Roscommon did to date would be 'banked' so to speak, rather than being lost after a championship defeat.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 23/06/2015 09:44:44    1741340

Roscommon have some fantastic talent and but nothing happens over night it takes time.

Dublin didnt get to where they are in a couple of seasons it was a slow process.

Rossies like slightly jaded even in the first half and there is always next year even if they lose to Cavan.

DIV 1 would be a priority I think maybe the rest will do them good

Scarabin (Dublin) - Posts: 116 - 23/06/2015 10:19:11    1741357

One thing McGuinness said on Saturday on Sky was that he was disappointed with the effort of Tipp, Cavan and Roscommon in the championship this year given their recent U21 success.

Was a bit surprised that he expected these sides to have an impact based on their U21 success.

I think a huge factor in championship football is having decemt experience in the squad, with McGuinness's own Donegal the prime example of this.

Regarding the OP's central point - since the current league setup was adopted there has been a very strong correlation between league standing and championship success.

Basically for any side that wants to seriously compete you need to be playing at the highest level possible.

Last year provided a perfect example of how being in Division 1 helps bring player's through in terms of Paul Murphy for Kerry. Now obviously it wasn't simply a case of playing in Division 1 magically making him ready to have an impact on the championship but imagine for a minute that Kerry were in Division 2 last year. Now imagine they were in Division 3 or Division 4. How much would playing in the lower divisions have affected Murphy's chances of having an impact on the championship?

To my mind it was a serious blow to Tipp's progression not getting promoted out of Division 3 this year. Next year they will have league games against Longford, Offaly, Limerick, Clare, Sligo, Westmeath and Kildare. If they had been promoted to Division 2 they would have had games against Tyrone, Derry, Cavan, Meath, Galway, Laois and one of Fermanagh or Armagh. You look at those two possibilities and it's impossible to argue that the second one wouldnt prepare Tipp far far better for making an assault on Munster.

besidetheditch (Dublin) - Posts: 81 - 23/06/2015 11:30:13    1741424

Tipp would have thought at the start of the year that they could perhaps cause an upset in Munster. There would have been no point in them peaking for the league. They need to see how far they are behind Kerry and Cork. As for next year I would agree that they should now peak for the league and try and get out of Division 3. They now know that they are still a bit too far of challenging for Munster.

Roscommon probably feel that there is a Connaught championship in the side next year. It will be interesting to see how they approach the league.

deadybai (Kilkenny) - Posts: 63 - 23/06/2015 12:20:05    1741466

Tipperary are improving in football no doubt. In this decade they have won two under 21 and two minor (4 of 11 underage titles available), Cork have 4 under 21 and one minor (5 titles) and Kerry have the two minor titles. Kerry schools have won 5 Corn Ui Mhuiri (Cork have one). At third level, UCC and CIT have been to the fore in the Sigerson Cup and they have some Tipperary players but mostly are populated by Kerry and Cork players.

The point of the above is, certainly Tipp are doing well but by this we mean they are holding their own at underage. They are not dominant.

At senior level though, they are a mile behind. They need to be playing at a higher level or the gap is not going to narrow. For them, the league should be a priority.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 23/06/2015 13:59:10    1741570

Underage success has never and never will guarantee senior success.
I said after league and ill say it again Roscommon are very likely to do a Westmeath on it in the league.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 23/06/2015 14:21:55    1741587

I was wondering when royaldunne was going to show himself.

Rosfan (Roscommon) - Posts: 778 - 23/06/2015 20:37:51    1741838

royaldunne
County: Meath
Posts: 7650

1741587
Underage success has never and never will guarantee senior success.
I said after league and ill say it again Roscommon are very likely to do a Westmeath on it in the league.

I think it depends on what experienced quality senior players you already have, as successful teams normally have a blend of ages. Cavan have had tonnes of underage success, but little or no key senior players to help ease the underage talent in. This is or will also be a problem for Roscommon and Tipperary.

Don't get me wrong, if you have enough sustained underage success, eventually you will win at senior level. But lack of experienced talent probably slows down the success of the transition from U21 to Senior.

Donegal seem to have done well at bringing U21 and even Minor talent in over the past few years, and they already had a strong core of talented senior men in place.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 23/06/2015 21:58:11    1741892

Congratulations to Roscommon. A great win and performance. Let the league take care of itself in 2016. Now that ye've yer confidence back ye can give any remaining team a game of it in this years championship.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7336 - 04/07/2015 18:42:10    1747447