Discuss the pros and cons of this

Brianmac78 (Dublin) - Posts: 1168 - 28/01/2015 13:06:01    1687344

Pros - retain possession and then get the ball into the full forward line or even take a score.

Cons - if possession is not retained the opposition have it in an advanced position.

It should be utilised but the trick is having a keeper who sees when it is on (and crucially when it is not on) and defenders comfortable enough on the ball to execute it.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 28/01/2015 14:02:22    1687378

Definitely need to trust your defenders touch/catch. Also the goalie needs to be fairly accurate. Dropping it short/too long for the defender can be a disaster.

The pros are getting the ball into the full forward lines faster and finding a free man easier

deadybai (Kilkenny) - Posts: 63 - 28/01/2015 16:52:19    1687456

definitely can be useful for a team that might not have ball winners in midfield or half forward line.

It needs half backs and midfielders who can move to exploit space, a very good touch and a keep who has accurate delivery.

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1890 - 28/01/2015 17:03:45    1687459

A great option if teams practise and use it. A neat way of getting ball where you ultimately want it to go.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4895 - 28/01/2015 20:54:35    1687550

Personally, I hate seeing it, its completely pointless unless the goalie has a terrible puc out. Nearly always results in the defender hitting under pressure, belting it up the field, only reaching less distance than the goalie would have (that or else the defender losing it, and an easy score for the opposition). Id rather see it banned in hurling than football, at least in th peil it has a point

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1054 - 29/01/2015 11:09:20    1687640

a viable tactic if able to be performed properly like all other tactics i guess i see no problem with it at all.

hurler in the ditch (Louth) - Posts: 439 - 29/01/2015 11:36:07    1687652

when we say short puck out, are we saying to full or half backs? Half backs are fine if they are able to take a score. It will not work for long though as teams will soon close this avenue off. If it is to the full backs then they are likely to be hitting the ball into a very crowded forward area with the opposition having a lot of cover. These are the pros.

The cons are- if you mess it up, you are f@~#$%

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 29/01/2015 11:40:50    1687656

It was used very effectively by Cork in the early noughties. Cusack had great understanding with Seán Óg, Gardiner and O'Connor and his puck outs were often basis for Cork scores. I notice actually that from my limited viewing of Dublin under Cunningham that a not dissimilar style is perhaps being employed. It is like everything else, including the Dublin footballrs, any effective tactic will eventually be countered, as Cork hurler's was by the Cats although arguably that Cork team's best days were over before KK really hit their peak.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 29/01/2015 12:12:49    1687674

Partly why I brought it up HurlingDub

Watching us on Sunday there were a far few puckouts hit short ( Ive never rated Maguires puckouts anyway). But the short puck to the defender was often followed by the long strike which the keeper could have attempted anyway.

Cork perfected it but few others have. Ye go short with the hope of opening up space but teams will gladly let ye puck short to the defendef and drop back to swarm the defence therefore pucking short to a defender who will then hit long is a bit silly really. If that defender is going to go short again and run the ball out from defence then that might open things up a bit

Why puck short though if you have ball winners in your half forward (In Dublins team ye have Keaney Sutcliffe and Schutte or Dwyer all well able to win there own ball). If ye dont have ball winners why not create space and have the keeper drill a ball out to the space for a runner?

Brianmac78 (Dublin) - Posts: 1168 - 29/01/2015 13:29:08    1687707

massive effective if done well. absolute It totally dismantled Kilkenny in 04. Damine Fitzhenry,Declan Ruth,Darragh Ryan and Rory McCarthy had a meeting behind manager John Conran's back to devise the game plan for the leister semi final. In previous years the senior players were immensely dissatisfied by the manager's "your big enough now, go out and hurl them" attitude with little or no game plan so they took matters into their own hands. It worked a treat with fitzhenry being deadly accurate and always finding a man inside his own half to build attacks from there and take Kilkenny's awesome half back line completely out of the game. Kilkenny had no answer.

The same strategy in the same year was adopted by cork and won them the all-Ireland.

The big thing is both of those teams had deadly accurate goal keepers and composed and experienced defenders to trust in. Teams wise up to it fairly quickly though. Wexford tried it in 05 and had to abandon the tactic as Kilkenny were hoping on everything.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2624 - 29/01/2015 13:41:03    1687711

Brianmac78
County: Dublin
Posts: 800


Why puck short though if you have ball winners in your half forward (In Dublins team ye have Keaney Sutcliffe and Schutte or Dwyer all well able to win there own ball)

Because they can't win every ball.

Also it becomes very easy to suffocate and close down that if the opposition know where every puck out is going to go. Your half forward may win the ball but they'll win it in traffic or else it'll be broken away.

However if the opposition is kept guessing about whether or not the keeper will go short or long they'll have to push up on the full back line. That leaves more space for your ball winning half forwards to do some damage when they win the puck outs.

If the opportunity is there, the keeper should almost always go short.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 29/01/2015 14:14:01    1687718

it only ever worked in 2004, especially by wexford. its a complete waste now, nothing good ever comes out of it, the ball just ends up being driven up, usually shorter and to an even more bunched up defence, often enough the defender fools around in a semi panic before passing it back to the goalie! who now has to hit his "puc out" with the forward breathing down his neck. and thats at intercounty, at club level its a complete disaster, fumbles, `poking, end up invariably with a free in and maybe a booking for the poor unfortunate corner back who was only too embarrassed to say he didnt even want the ble****g ball in the first place.
If you can pick out an unmarked midfielder around the centrefield, grand. Otherwise its rubbish.

Even in 2004, it copmletely backfired for Cork against Waterford, they just let cusack tap it to the Rock and waited for him to do what cusack should have been doing himself. And cork were supposed to be good at it! Theres no way you could attribute Corks all irelands to puc outs anyway, with the players they had, and with KK going through a mini slump

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1054 - 29/01/2015 15:31:25    1687745

Doyler, I had neglected to mention yourselves. Cork I thought made good enough use of it for a while, but of course it can be countered. It was more than 'tapping it' to Sullivan by the way! Cusack's puck outs to the wings or occasionally centrally, were bullets which as someone said requires great accuracy, speed and a cool receiver who can make use of it. I played in the backs and worst nightmare was seeing a puckout from ourselves heading my way so huge respect for any back who can use it the way Seán Óg and Gardiner and Kenny did!

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 29/01/2015 18:55:05    1687854

Check Gleeson's performance for Tipp v Cork in this year's All-Ireland semi-final.

Flawless puckouts. Mixed it up perfectly between long and short and destroyed Cork in the process. Positively Cluxtonesque!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 29/01/2015 19:55:32    1687874

But check him out v Kilkenny, who were on to him, especially 2nd match. Completely neutralized and impotent

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1054 - 29/01/2015 20:56:51    1687902

flack
County: Dublin
Posts: 504

1687902
But check him out v Kilkenny, who were on to him, especially 2nd match. Completely neutralized and impotent

True but it doesn't mean the entire tactic doesn't work.

It wasn't completely neutralised either, Kilkenny coped a lot better than Cork though defo!

No tactic is perfect and all can be stopped in different ways, however all teams need to have different ways to play the game.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 29/01/2015 21:16:13    1687912

short puck out game requires modern goal keepers. who are quick to get the ball after a score/wide, have the vision to spot an available teammate and most of all accuracy.
previously goalkeepers would take their time and then wind up to drive the ball as far as possible

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1941 - 29/01/2015 21:22:23    1687918

Short puckouts are probably more effective at club level where most goalies will have a few balls in the net ready to go. You really need to be ready to hit the puck out as the ball is going dead. This gives the defender the most time possible to look up and pick someone out. This is harder at inter county level because the umpires tend to hold onto the balls which slows it down and gives the forwards a change to get back into position.

PROS: Moves the ball further when executed correctly, can also be used to pass strong half back lines.

CONS: If the tactic is pushed on a goalie who is not comfortable in taking shorts puck outs it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 29/01/2015 21:43:29    1687927

I suppose it depends on how short, anything that involves clean possesion past the halfback line is grand

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1054 - 30/01/2015 13:51:19    1688077