Why not use the league as qualification to the symmetric 16 team prov SFs ?
16 other non SFlists could play for the Tommy Murphy Cup (TMC).
Each stream could play 4 knockout rounds to determine 'Champions Cup' (CC) and TMC winners, with
prov champs crowned after 2 rounds.
Losers from both streams enter Qualifiers.
TMC champ join 5 surviving Qualifiers in 3 AI QFs - the 3 winners join the CC winner in the AI SFs.
AI description is fitting as the two 16 team streams are merged in late competition.
More exciting competition as the stronger 16 go head to head more often thru the CC, and the weaker 16
could be paired up thru the Qualifiers.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 27/09/2014 17:36:11    1657489

The league is good preparation for the championship. End of.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 27/09/2014 17:52:48    1657494

27/09/2014 17:36:11 omahant
Why not use the league as qualification to the symmetric 16 team prov SFs ?
16 other non SFlists could play for the Tommy Murphy Cup (TMC).
Each stream could play 4 knockout rounds to determine 'Champions Cup' (CC) and TMC winners, with
prov champs crowned after 2 rounds.
Losers from both streams enter Qualifiers.
TMC champ join 5 surviving Qualifiers in 3 AI QFs - the 3 winners join the CC winner in the AI SFs.
AI description is fitting as the two 16 team streams are merged in late competition.
More exciting competition as the stronger 16 go head to head more often thru the CC, and the weaker 16
could be paired up thru the Qualifiers. No. That's a terrible idea
What is the point if this? It wouldn't lead to more exciting competition. It would add be needless layers of games and would certainly not be more exciting


PS omahant could you not create one thread for all your competition ideas? Better than you having a dozen plus threads. By having every one of your ideas in the same thread we could compare all your competition ideas...

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 27/09/2014 17:56:39    1657495

Were you watching the All-Ireland final last weekend omahant?!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 27/09/2014 18:02:10    1657498

To Legendzxix -

Congrats on number 37 - while I'm sure you never get tired of winning, 2014 must be extra sweet when many of us wrote you off - I did before Muns final.
I did see match but listened in live on radio 1.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 28/09/2014 16:22:54    1657706

A drastic change in format won't be approved at congress.

I do think that league placings should effect a seeded draw in each province (like how the 2015 Munster championship works).
That gives extra games to weaker counties before they meet the bigger teams.
I also think the 16 teams who don't reach the provincial finals should play off like this:

1. 8 lowest ranked losers of provincial quarters and preliminary rounds enter Tommy Murphy
2. 8 highest ranked losers of provincial quarters and preliminary rounds play off - QR1
3. 4 Winners of QR1 playoff with 8 provincial semi losers - QR2
4. 6 Winners of QR2 playoff - QR3
5. 3 no QR3 winners + tommy murphy winner play 4 beaten provincial finalists QR4
6. All Ireland series

This gives all counties a chance of a championship run regardless of their status in the game and means teams who progress in the National leagues are rewarded with later entry into the championship.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 29/09/2014 12:50:05    1658039

How about merging the National league and Provincial's, with the top 4 teams graduating to the All Ireland series group stage.

That means 4 teams from each province make 4 All Ireland series groups, with one team from each province entering each group.

A Provincial final could then be played in the Interim by the top 2 Provincial league sides, with their place in the last 16 already guaranteed.

Provincial champions would then be seeded and thus kept apart from the other 3 provincial champions, and one side from each province will then enter each group.

Example: Using this year's championship,

Champions: Kerry, Dublin, Donegal, Mayo
runners up: Monaghan, Galway, Meath, Cork
3rd place: Roscommon, Armagh, Tipp, Kildare
4th place: Laois, Clare, Sligo, Antrim

Top 4 enter All Ireland SF's.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 29/09/2014 14:26:31    1658115

Too much change too soon for Congress.

I would prefer to abolish the league and run a round robin provincial championship and then a top sixteen 4 teams x 4 groups all Ireland championship but it would never get through congress.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 29/09/2014 16:02:50    1658172

29/09/2014 12:50:05 tirawleybaron
A drastic change in format won't be approved at congress.
I do think that league placings should effect a seeded draw in each province (like how the 2015 Munster championship works).
That gives extra games to weaker counties before they meet the bigger teams.
I also think the 16 teams who don't reach the provincial finals should play off like this:
1. 8 lowest ranked losers of provincial quarters and preliminary rounds enter Tommy Murphy
2. 8 highest ranked losers of provincial quarters and preliminary rounds play off - QR1
3. 4 Winners of QR1 playoff with 8 provincial semi losers - QR2
4. 6 Winners of QR2 playoff - QR3
5. 3 no QR3 winners + tommy murphy winner play 4 beaten provincial finalists QR4
6. All Ireland series
This gives all counties a chance of a championship run regardless of their status in the game and means teams who progress in the National leagues are rewarded with later entry into the championship. I disagree with this format as its unequal and doesn't solve issues like counties entering championship at varying different times and some teams having played 2 games before others play 1 etc etc
29/09/2014 14:26:31 GaryMc82
How about merging the National league and Provincial's, with the top 4 teams graduating to the All Ireland series group stage.
That means 4 teams from each province make 4 All Ireland series groups, with one team from each province entering each group.
A Provincial final could then be played in the Interim by the top 2 Provincial league sides, with their place in the last 16 already guaranteed.
Provincial champions would then be seeded and thus kept apart from the other 3 provincial champions, and one side from each province will then enter each group.
Example: Using this year's championship,
Champions: Kerry, Dublin, Donegal, Mayo
runners up: Monaghan, Galway, Meath, Cork
3rd place: Roscommon, Armagh, Tipp, Kildare
4th place: Laois, Clare, Sligo, Antrim
Top 4 enter All Ireland SF's. No that's a terrible idea IMO. You need a decent length league and have it separate to other competitions. Your format doesn't take into account varying strengths of each province and is unfair to Leinster/Ulster
29/09/2014 16:02:50
tirawleybaron
Too much change too soon for Congress.

I would prefer to abolish the league and run a round robin provincial championship and then a top sixteen 4 teams x 4 groups all Ireland championship but it would never get through congress. That would be terrible and you are right it would never get through congress. How is that a good proposal? What is the benefit of abolishing the league?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 29/09/2014 16:37:22    1658194

why do people waste their time with these meaningless suggestions.....have you lost sight of the fact that many provincial semi-finalists don't even play in div 1 and div 2...eg coonnacht and munster championships have a load of div 3 and 4 teams at semi final stage...don't see the point of this thread

mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 29/09/2014 20:10:00    1658306

The Championship and National League does need a shake up, as the league really isn't doing any serious business at present. And the Championship is too short and spaced out ( 3 or 4 weeks between games ).

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 29/09/2014 20:48:36    1658324

The GAA broad in the A and B sides to the draw. That's about as much change as ye'll be seeing to the current structure for a while. The qualifiers are a round too long but the TMC got scrapped and the extra round for the qualifier was reinstated.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 29/09/2014 21:09:09    1658334

SUGGESTION: Scrap the National league as we know it, and create a Provincial league/Provincial Championship merger which then leads to an extended 2 tier All Ireland series.

PROVINCIAL LEAGUE / CHAMPIONSHIP:
Each Province can setup their own provincial, in a way they feel is best. The one rule, is that they must supply 4 teams to the All Ireland Senior football championship. Clearly in the absence of a National League, and extended Provincial Championship is needed. So there would be a need to have 8 to 10 games, meaning playing teams both home and away.

ALL IRELAND SENIOR FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP: Each Province would then send their top 4 to the All Ireland Senior football series ( Top 2 play a Provincial final, Provincial Champions would be top seed in groups ), which in short would be 4 groups of 4 teams who play each other twice ( Home & Away ).

All IRELAND INTERMEDIATE FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP: All the teams who don't make the All Ireland senior football series, will enter 4 groups of 4. Basically Identical structure to the senior championship. You then have 16 lower placed teams with a realistic chance of ending the year as All Ireland Champions.

RESULT: All 32 teams get quite a few provincial games, which will attract crowds due to playing all the local derby games.
All 32 teams will get at least 6 All Ireland Championship games ( Either Senior or Intermediate ). There should be no longer than 2 weeks between games, preferably 1 week between group games. This would open up summer space for Club Championship football.

CONCLUSION:
We retain the 4 x Provincial Championship system, with the 4 winners gaining top seeding for the All Ireland series keeping provincials Important. We give the lowest placed 16 teams a real competitive Championship too. But most Importantly we start using Intercounty Grounds more often with Home and Away games against each Opposition, and give all Counties a longer and meaningful championship.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 29/09/2014 21:25:56    1658349

The one major benefit to my Idea for the 2 tier football championship, Is that every team has a shot at Senior or Intermediate Championship every year.

If your playing well and get on a bit of a run, you will be rewarded by getting a shot at the All Ireland Senior football Championship.

The downside, Is that the Idea of scrapping the National League and replacing it with a Provincial League/Championship merger won't float with many. Too much change in too little time, probably too radical.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 29/09/2014 21:37:52    1658352

I disagree Gary.

1. There is a place for a shorter league of 5 games from two even groups of 6 per division with top teams contesting a final.
2. I agree on provincial groups but 1 in Munster, 1 in Connaught, 2 in Ulster + London and 2 in Leinster. All teams getting at least two home games in the groups of five or six.
3. The top 2 from the 6 provincial groups should make the knock-out All-Ireland series. That'll be 2 from Munster, 2 from Connaught, 4 from Ulster and 4 from Leinster.
4. Leinster and Ulster should retain provincial semi-finals from top 2 of the groups. Munster and Connaught should retain provincial final from the top 2 of their groups.
5. Provincial runners-up vs Leinster & Ulster losing semi-finalists in a play-off round.
6. Provincial winners vs Play-off winners in the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

Advantages:
a. League retained but with less games.
b. Provincial championships retained but in a group format with all teams guaranteed two home games with an April start to the championship.
c. The top 12 in the country enter the All-Ireland series in a neat way of 8 in the play-offs with the 4 winners joining the 4 provincial winners in the quarter-finals.

The Tommy Murphy Cup could return for the 20 teams not making the All-Ireland series:
i. 8 teams finishing 5th and 6th in the groups start off in Round 1.
ii. 4 Round 1 winners and the 12 teams finishing 3rd and 4th in the groups entering Round 2.
iii. Quarter-finals onwards from there. Award the TMC winners an all paid trip to New York and take on the New York team in the process.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 29/09/2014 21:44:08    1658357

one word: NO

kerryluck (Kerry) - Posts: 2517 - 29/09/2014 21:45:15    1658358

Ormondbannerman, Mayotyroneman, kerryluck.

Do ye believe the championship is fine as it is with miss matches up until the semi finals? As well as a national league that doesn't attract crowds because their is no intensity in most matches?

AS for not discussing it. Is this not a GAA discussion forum?

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 30/09/2014 08:46:03    1658390

29/09/2014 21:25:56 GaryMc82
SUGGESTION: Scrap the National league as we know it, and create a Provincial league/Provincial Championship merger which then leads to an extended 2 tier All Ireland series.
PROVINCIAL LEAGUE / CHAMPIONSHIP:
Each Province can setup their own provincial, in a way they feel is best. The one rule, is that they must supply 4 teams to the All Ireland Senior football championship. Clearly in the absence of a National League, and extended Provincial Championship is needed. So there would be a need to have 8 to 10 games, meaning playing teams both home and away.
ALL IRELAND SENIOR FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP: Each Province would then send their top 4 to the All Ireland Senior football series ( Top 2 play a Provincial final, Provincial Champions would be top seed in groups ), which in short would be 4 groups of 4 teams who play each other twice ( Home & Away ).
All IRELAND INTERMEDIATE FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP: All the teams who don't make the All Ireland senior football series, will enter 4 groups of 4. Basically Identical structure to the senior championship. You then have 16 lower placed teams with a realistic chance of ending the year as All Ireland Champions.
RESULT: All 32 teams get quite a few provincial games, which will attract crowds due to playing all the local derby games.
All 32 teams will get at least 6 All Ireland Championship games ( Either Senior or Intermediate ). There should be no longer than 2 weeks between games, preferably 1 week between group games. This would open up summer space for Club Championship football.
CONCLUSION:
We retain the 4 x Provincial Championship system, with the 4 winners gaining top seeding for the All Ireland series keeping provincials Important. We give the lowest placed 16 teams a real competitive Championship too. But most Importantly we start using Intercounty Grounds more often with Home and Away games against each Opposition, and give all Counties a longer and meaningful championship. Where are you getting the idea that scrapping the current league for a provincial league will see bigger crowds in attendance. The bottom 4 Munster sides have often been in the same division in national league in football and it hasn't exactly seen huge crowds at league games
By sending 4 sides from each province to national set up it unfairly gives advantages to the counties from smaller provinces(Connacht/Munster) over Leinster and Ulster counties
29/09/2014 21:45:15 kerryluck
one word: NOWhy not give some feedback on their ideas or come up with you own proposal if you disagree with the ideas posted here
30/09/2014 08:46:03
tirawleybaron
Ormondbannerman, Mayotyroneman, kerryluck.
Do ye believe the championship is fine as it is with miss matches up until the semi finals? As well as a national league that doesn't attract crowds because their is no intensity in most matches?
AS for not discussing it. Is this not a GAA discussion forum? Of course I don't believe the championship is fine as it is but some of the proposed ideas will never work

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 30/09/2014 11:14:21    1658459

Ormondbannerman

The current provincial system has teams entering the championship at different stages. I proposed a slight variation on the existing championship where national league performance dictates seeding for the championship draw and lowest 8 ranked teams play a Tommy Murphy cup with re entry to the championship against a beaten provincial finalist. This is minimal change to the current system and gives those teams that have no chance of provincial or all Ireland success a trophy to play for, summer football and a method of progress.

You shot it down "I disagree with this format as its unequal and doesn't solve issues like counties entering championship at varying different times and some teams having played 2 games before others play 1 etc etc"

The only solution to your issues are an open draw and scrap the provincial system or even up the provincial numbers. That way everyone enters at the same time. Both of these wouldn't get through congress.

I would be interested to see what your would suggest (1) as your ideal system and (2) a modification of the current system that might pass at congress?

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 30/09/2014 12:25:57    1658525

30/09/2014 12:25:57 tirawleybaron
Ormond The current provincial system has teams entering the championship at different stages. I proposed a slight variation on the existing championship where national league performance dictates seeding for the championship draw and lowest 8 ranked teams play a Tommy Murphy cup with re entry to the championship against a beaten provincial finalist. This is minimal change to the current system and gives those teams that have no chance of provincial or all Ireland success a trophy to play for, summer football and a method of progress.
You shot it down "I disagree with this format as its unequal and doesn't solve issues like counties entering championship at varying different times and some teams having played 2 games before others play 1 etc etc"
The only solution to your issues are an open draw and scrap the provincial system or even up the provincial numbers. That way everyone enters at the same time. Both of these wouldn't get through congress.
I would be interested to see what your would suggest (1) as your ideal system and (2) a modification of the current system that might pass at congress? I disagree that we only need minimal change to the current system as the current system is nowhere near good enough
Lower ranked sides don't want and shouldn't have to go into a ranking tournament to decide if they should be deemed worthy of a place in the main competition even if the reward of success is a place in the latter stages of the main competition.
I think a primarily league based competition should be the primary competition of the year with ranking playoffs played at conclusion of the group stages to decide winner of sam with cup competitions also being played
Never go and scrap the provincial system and go to open draw and never even up provincial numbers

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 30/09/2014 13:14:22    1658551