The Ulster champions as in any championships have a mix of tough tasks, handy games and tough finals or not in some cases. I've taken a look back at the last 10 championships:

2003
QF Tyrone 0-17 Derry 1-5
SF Tyrone 1-17 Antrim 1-9
FNL Tyrone 0-23 Down 1-5

2004
QF Armagh 2-19 Monaghan 0-10
SF Armagh 0-13 Cavan 0-11
FNL Armagh 3-15 Donegal 0-11
'04 using northern logic, which again is expressed by a minority, Armagh should have won the All-Ireland championship.

2005
PR Armagh 2-12 Fermanagh 1-7
QF Armagh 3-11 Donegal 1-10
SF Armagh 1-11 Derry 0-10
FNL Armagh 0-13 Tyrone 0-11

2006
QF Armagh 1-13 Monaghan 0-10
SF Armagh 0-16 Fermanagh 1-8
FNL Armagh 1-9 Donegal 0-9
'06 again it's arguable under northern logic that Armagh should have been All-Ireland champions.

2007
QF Tyrone 1-13 Fermanagh 1-9
SF Tyrone 2-15 Donegal 1-7
FNL Tyrone 1-15 Monaghan 1-13
'07 again is another year where it has to be said the champions had one serious challenge and under the northern logic, probably should have won the All-Ireland.

2008
QF Armagh 0-17 Cavan 0-13
SF Armagh 1-12 Down 0-11
FNL Armagh 1-11 Fermanagh 0-8

2009
QF Tyrone 2-10 Armagh 1-10
SF Tyrone 0-15 Derry 0-7
FNL Tyrone 1-18 Antrim 0-15
'09 again is yet another year where using the norther logic criteria, the champions who had a tough provincial quarter-final should have won the All-Ireland from there.

2010
QF Tyrone 2-14 Antrim 1-13
SF Tyrone 0-14 Down 0-10
FNL Tyrone 1-14 Monaghan 0-7
'10 again is another year under northern logic where arguably the Ulster champions should have gone on to win the All-Ireland.

2011
PR Donegal 1-10 Antrim 0-7
QF Donegal 2-14 Cavan 1-8
SF Donegal 2-6 Tyrone 0-9
FNL Donegal 1-11 Derry 0-8
'11 again under northern logic, the Ulster champions should have won the All-Ireland. It was a tough semi-final but the other games arguably were similar in standard to all other provinces.

2012
PR Donegal 1-16 Cavan 1-10
QF Donegal 2-13 Derry 0-9
SF Donegal 0-12 Tyrone 0-10
FNL Donegal 2-18 Down 0-13

2013
QF Monaghan 0-11 Antrim 0-6
SF Monaghan 1-10 Cavan 0-12
FNL Monaghan 0-13 Donegal 0-7
'13 again under northern logic, it's a bit surprising the Ulster champions did not win the All-Ireland. The final was tough but other provinces have these standard of finals as well.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 17/07/2014 18:34:24    1620799

UNLEASH THE DOGS OF WAR!!!!!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 17/07/2014 18:55:21    1620810

This is all getting very tiresome . You people are going around in circles chasing your tails and getting nowhere fast. Park this "debate". It is tired . Find something better to do with your lives. The Munster hurling and the Ulster football championships are the two best, most competitive championships in the country. They are both very hard to win. Winning them however does not automatically confer greatness. Now like I said go and mow the lawns . That is what I am going to do .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 17/07/2014 18:58:04    1620811

Enough of this nonsense. Stop now.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 17/07/2014 19:39:57    1620829

If you really couldn't help it could you not at least have posted this in the current topic about Ulster?

MichaelO (Tyrone) - Posts: 820 - 17/07/2014 19:42:24    1620830

Since the back door all provinces have won All-Ireland's and the competition is all the better for that. Kerry, Cork, Armagh, Tyrone, Donegal, Dublin and Galway have all enjoyed success and I certainly like to see Meath, Kildare, Laois, Mayo, Roscommon, Monaghan, Down, Derry etc pushing hard to make the competition better. The Ulster Championship is very competitive which Munster will never be. It was the same in the 1980's a great Kerry team dominated with 5 wins but the Leinster championship in the same decade produced All-Ireland champions Dublin, Meath and Offaly.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 17/07/2014 19:45:45    1620833

I think there was a good debate on the thread I started a few days ago. But all that needed to be said was said, with good scrutiny of the status Ulster holds, a status I believe does not stand up these days. Sorry legend, but I think this thread was pushing it to be honest.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 17/07/2014 20:40:04    1620865

You're entitled to you're opinion Treaty, no worries! In my opinion, obviously a few here do not agree, I felt there needs to be a discussion on Ulster's champions and their paths to their respective titles. If people wish to discuss it they will. If not, this thread will simply drop off into a scrap heap.

A northern logic keeps being applied to other championships. It seems a fair yardstick to measure the northern champions themselves.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 17/07/2014 20:57:02    1620874

No worries Legend!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 17/07/2014 21:27:51    1620884

so what are you saying legend.

that Ulster is not any more competive than other provinces. why don't you publish all other provinces results then.
find out how much the eventual champions won their games by add up the total differences. get an average and compare.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 17/07/2014 22:00:58    1620898

@s goldrick - A northern logic has been used to be dismissive of counties from other provinces who have gone on to do well in the All-Ireland series. It's par for the course to use that very same northern logic on the northern championship itself. If people want to use a certain criteria to gauge others, they shouldn't have any problems being gauged by that criteria themselves.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 18/07/2014 08:22:54    1620900

So lets have a look at the Munster champions path in Munster in the same period:

2003:
SF Kerry 0-25 Tipperary 1-10
F Kerry 1-11 Limerick 0-09

2004:
QF Kerry 2-10 Clare 0-09
SF Kerry 0-15 Cork 0-7
F Kerry 3-10 Limerick 2-09

2005
QF Kerry 0-22 Tipperary 0-13
SF Kerry 2-10 Limerick 0-10
F Kerry 1-11 Cork 0-10

2006
SF Cork 0-09 Limerick 0-05
F Cork 1-02 Kerry 0-09

2007
SF Kerry 2-15 Waterford 0-04
F Kerry 1-15 Cork 1-13

2008
SF Cork 2-09 Limerick 0-02
F Cork 1-16 Kerry 1-11

2009
QF Cork 2-18 Waterford 2-18
SF Cork 1-17 Kerry 0-12
F Cork 2-06 Limerick 0-11

2010
QF Kerry 2-18 Tipperary 2-06
SF Kerry 1-15 Cork 1-14
F Kerry 1-17 Limerick 1-14

2011
QF Kerry 2-16 Tipperary 0-11
SF Kerry 1-26 Limerick 3-09
F Kerry 1-15 Cork 1-12

2012
SF Cork 0-17 Kerry 0-12
F Cork 3-16 Clare 0-13

2013
QF Kerry 2-19 Tipperary 0-08
SF Kerry 4-21 Waterford 1-4
F Kerry 1-16 Cork 0-17

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 09:17:58    1620914

I have also being going through the divisions of the opponent of each of the winners in the two Provinces to see if this can be quantified though to hand I was only able to get NFL tables going back to 2009 - if anyone has a link to beyond this I can complete this back to 2003 but on the details to hand:

I have used the following co-efficients as a basis:
Div 1 opponent 4 points, Div 2 opponent 3 points, Div 3 opponent 2 points and Div 4 opponent 1 point.

Since 2009 the Munster Champions v Ulster Champions co-effiecients reads:

2009: Munster 7 Ulster 8
2010: Munster 8 Ulster 9
2011: Munster 8 Ulster 11
2012: Munster 5 Ulster 12
2013: Munster 6 Ulster 8

Now, it doesn't take a genius to have a quick look at the path in Ulster and compare to the Munster and see which is the path of least resistance so this backs up what most on here know already that the Ulster championship is a lot harder to win then Munster.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 09:18:16    1620915

Further furthermore. If we then look at the All-Ireland Champions over the same period and check out the co-efficients it reads as follows:

2009: Champions Kerry (Munster) with 17 points
2010: Champions Cork (Munster) with 18 points
2011: Champions Dublin (Leinster) with 18 points
2012: Champions Donegal (Ulster) with 24 points
2013: Champions Dublin (Leinster) with 21 points

So if we rank these in order of hardest to easiest won All-Irelands over this period it ranks:

2012
2013
2011/2010
2009

Its clear from these stats that in the period the easiest won All-Irelands (paths of least resistance) were by the Munster winners with the hardest being the Ulster winners.

I have all the stats sitting ready from 2003 to 2009 so if I can get the NFL league tables I can complete the analysis. However, from the stats available two things are clear:

1. The Munster Championship offers less resistance than Ulster
2. The 2 All-Irelands win by Munster teams in this period have been the easiest to win.

Would like to take this opportunity to thank Legendzxix and Treaty for their inspiration in compiling these stats. I sat up last night going through the internet and at times felt what was the point but all it took was a quick re-read of their posts to make me continue in my quest so for that I am thankful.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 09:18:39    1620916

Should have added that although I don't have the leagues from 2003-2008 inclusive yet, from the analysis I have I don't think the 2 conclusions in my last post are going to change much :-)

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 09:43:34    1620925

Impressive compilation of stats but you've missed the point. If you look at the Ulster champions results, under northern logic more should have gone on to win the All-Ireland.

Looking at the stats I'm more envious of the northern championship. Being guaranteed 3 games ahead of the All-Ireland series is great preparation. The more games the better. Players want to be playing games not training. Supporters want more of an opportunity to see there team.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 18/07/2014 09:53:53    1620930

Offside_Rule that is some pretty impressive stuff.

I spoke on another thread about the limitations of just throwing out figures in isolation and you have certainly done good work on this front by applying a weight based on respective division which is the best indicator available.

While you have been able to prove from your analysis that it is a tougher path to win the Ulster than Munster (something I do not think has really been in question apart from a couple of mischief makers) I wonder how Leinster and even Connacht compare.

While there has been a lot of squabbling about Ulster and Munster, looking at your 2013 findings is it possible that winning Leinster means beating better teams than Dublin (or others) often get credit for?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 18/07/2014 10:03:42    1620937

Haven't missed any point legend. What this shows is that not only is Ulster harder to win but that anyone who knows anything about sport will tell you that having tougher games/opponnents takes more out of you over a campaign and also increases the likelyhood of picking up more injuries. This gives the Provincial winners in say Munster an advantage in that they are fresher come the QF stage. Also it shows us that some AIs are easier won that others and from the stats shown the ones won by Dublin and Donegal have been harder won that those by Cork and Kerry. If we look at this trend over a longer period then you could deduce that a team from the province with the path of least resistance will have more AI titles than the other teams and when you check the stats then it makes sense that Kerry (and Munster) have the most titles and no surprise using the same logic that Ulster as a province has the least titles.

So what Province you are in arguably has a major say in how many AI titles are won. QED.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 10:08:20    1620939

Funny Naysayer, Leinster is the one province which I think is more competitive than the perception. Again, if I can get a link to the NFL tables I could complete it for all Provinces but from what I have in front of me I don't think Dublin get it as easy as people suggest.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 10:11:15    1620941

I do notice as well that all posts on this thread bar one are from Ulster or Munster and the one that was not was stating 'This is all getting very tiresome'.

As such maybe legendzxix and Treaty_Exile might want to let this subject go now before everyone gets totally turned off.

If you want to entertain yourselves in your summer holidays why dont you ring the neighbours doorbell and run away or else throw water ballons at cars and see if you can get a chase.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 18/07/2014 10:29:49    1620953