In response to John Allen's call for a more inclusive and fairer NHL with reduced risk of one-sided matches,
I came with the following:
Div 1 to consist of a 'Super 14', with mid-ranked teams (seeds 5 to 11) each playing the other 7.
One league table, with Top 8 to QFs ( 1v8, 2v7 etc) and with the highest and lowest winning seeds being paired in the SFs.
Two up / two down.
This will keep the strong 'head-to-head' matches for the knockout stage and ensurd a mid-ranked county partipates
in every match.
What do you think ? Same answers as before ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 15/04/2014 22:01:33    1575775

Same answers as before but a few q's for you
- why do you constantly put up loads and loads of different convulated competition formats
- why cant you put them all into 1 thread ie "omahants competition format ideas" instead of having them all over the forum

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/04/2014 09:04:49    1575785

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 7071

1575785 Same answers as before but a few q's for you
- why do you constantly put up loads and loads of different convulated competition formats
- why cant you put them all into 1 thread ie "omahants competition format ideas" instead of having them all over the forum

I can answer that. This is a discussion forum. He is entitled to start new topics if he wishes. If you do not like the topics then you do not have to post.

What is a lot more worrying is the fact that you take the moral high ground on absolutely everything that you reply to. Just because you say something, does not mean that it is correct. I, and many others, have said to you before that you really need to learn some netiquette. You seem oblivious to that need.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 16/04/2014 16:03:14    1576039

Ormy you're really becoming a pain on these forums. Must we ask you for permission to post from now on?? You're not the greatest poster yourself you know.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 16/04/2014 16:38:10    1576056

I don't like shooting down people format suggestions, because I've put enough up here myself. But that system is too complicated omahant, and we need more straightforward competition formats.

I'd have no problem with larger divisions, I think the league is flawed at the moment. But if you have larger divisions, with more teams in the same tier, one-sided matches are always a possibility, trying to preemptively mitigate that does more harm than good.
If you're in the same division as Kilkenny, Galway, Clare etc, you should have to play the same games as they do, and play those teams as well. Every team in the same division should be on the same footing. If there are a few one-sided matches, that's just the way it is. If you get a result against one of the bigger teams, that'll make up for it. If someone isn't able to compete at all, they get relegated to a lower league where they can build again. It'll all be part of the learning process. But we need to get back to a league being a league.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 16/04/2014 17:17:50    1576078

16/04/2014 16:03:14
bennybunny
I can answer that. This is a discussion forum. He is entitled to start new topics if he wishes. If you do not like the topics then you do not have to post.

What is a lot more worrying is the fact that you take the moral high ground on absolutely everything that you reply to. Just because you say something, does not mean that it is correct. I, and many others, have said to you before that you really need to learn some netiquette. You seem oblivious to that need.Simple question when he/she has constantly got the same replies in each of the dozens of threads he/she has created on competition formats.
I didn't take any moral high ground here. Asked a question as there is loads of threads of omahants and very similar answers so why not combine all of them and its easier for omahant and everyone else to gain consensus on his ideas and plans for competition reform.
I do need to work on my netiquette but as do majority of people when addressing me do. There is no ormo here only Ormond and I regularly have posts dismissing me because I happen to follow rugby first and foremost with hurling second and gaelic below that

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/04/2014 17:21:48    1576080

Another chance to bang on this drum:
The league should be straightforward divisions of 8 with 2 up/down between divisions and the relegated getting on with it rather than cribbing about it.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 16/04/2014 17:58:46    1576091

Sorry lads I am with ormondbannerman on this one sick of these stupid ideas that are all the same and most of them a Maths teacher would'nt be able to sort them out with all the x by z rubbish or whatever.

As for sorthing out the league the GAA will never win this one and the GAA will never stray to far from a little change here and there so forget about the big changes idea.

therealtmo (Tipperary) - Posts: 1292 - 16/04/2014 19:57:52    1576143

Thank you Bennybunny for allowing me to air my views - a US right. By the way, I emigrated from Cork (Douglas).
My idea here allows the strongest 4 (incl KK and Clare) to play the next 7 (same 7 opponents) and avoid the weakest 3 (e.g. no Clare v Carlow).
I appreciate the purity of a full round fobin, but as one of the goals is to give the Carlows more competitive games, I feel my
idea strikes a good balance of competitive games, and the 8-team knockout field should be broad enough to accomodate any
impurities in what I have proposed. US sports and Aussie AFL operate with unbalanced league seasons before the playoffs - without me
saying it is right - it may strike a reasonable balance when one has multiple goals to achieve - there has to be some compromises.
My bottom line is this - a decent conversation can only be had between people of similar educational and professional profiles -
to that, I am the one who truly wastes his time here.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 16/04/2014 20:12:39    1576149

Omahant is right regards US sports and the AFL operating the unbalanced leagues. It needs to be kept in mind as well though that something similar was on the table for the hurling leage last year. The suggestion was 2 even groups of 6. Each team would play the 5 teams in their group plus 2 other games against teams in the other group. The top 2 in each group, the middle 2 and then the bottom 2 would play teams in the corresponding 2 places in the other group. It didn't gain support. A reality that has to be accepted, similar to my support for Dublin and Tyrone's champions round idea in football which did not gain support either.

therealtmo is right that the GAA will never stray far from a little change. Changes within current structures are the most realistic.

Omahant - I've probably overlooked the threads but I haven't noticed you comment much on matches themselves. What have you made of the league to date? Who will win the hurling and football leagues? What do you make of the TV deals struck by the GAA? Will it mean more ease of access for you to watch these games in the states? What was the last championship match you were at before you headed off to the states? Format discussions can go on forever, at the end of the day teams have been preparing throughout the league for championship.

Back on topic...
If the two groups of 1A and 1B are to remain, I'd like to see them expand to being 8 teams in each. The top 3 in 1A and the top team from 1B into the semi-finals. Bottom team in 1A relegated with the team top of 1B being promoted. The teams 6th & 7th in 1A and 2nd & 3rd in 1B into a 4 team play-off group where the top 2 will play in 1A in the following year. The results from the games where 6th & 7th in 1A and 2nd & 3rd in 1B have already played each other could carry over into the 4 team group. This would then just require 2 further rounds of games played on the same weekends as the semi-finals and finals. It would at the very least give the teams 2nd & 3rd in 1B two competitive games ahead of the championship. Based on this year's league placings the semi-finals would be: Clare v Wexford and Kilkenny v Galway. The play-off group for 1A then would consist of Waterford, Cork, Laois and Offaly. While Waterford and Cork would be favourites to retain a top 8 status, two games against them would be good for Offaly and Laois with their own championship preparations and help bridge the gap between the two tiers of 8 each.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 17/04/2014 20:53:48    1576556

To Legendzxix -
At the moment I think the Dubs are unstoppable - will win the NFL and AIC.
In hurling, I fancy Clare for the NHL and KK to make an AIC come back.
As for the Sky package, I think it's a reasonable amount of matches to see how it goes. The GAA has been too insular for too long (e.g. the pre-1971 'ban').
In the modern age, the growth of commercial interests is inevitable - and although I would not like this to lead to professionalism - it should motivate RTE to improve its output.
Up to now, I follow the games on the internet only - I haven't attended a match since '86 or so - not sure,
if I will get any additional match coverage on US TV - from what I've read, it seems the Aussies are the big winners from the Sky package.
Now approve my 'outside the box' ideas :) -
My NHL plan is a straight 7 v 7 (say, all A v B crossover games), less confusing than the 5+2 failed vote you mentioned.
My 24/7 is a modest change - could have the 1st rd losers in all provs entering a 'separate 8' instead of Muns anc Conn.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 18/04/2014 17:59:27    1576811

The NHL has had so many formats, I don't think any idea can be considered crazy or outside the box at this stage! ;)
Provincial champions have to treated the same regardless of the number of games or teams. The GAA tried entering div 4 teams into the TMC instead of the qualifiers. It was a good move in terms of streamlining the qualifiers but div 4 teams weren't too pleased. Working in current structures, a qualifier group is coming into the hurling. If that beds in well, it could be an option in football with 4 teams in each province starting in a qualifier group and top 2 into the provincial championship proper. Like the hurling, if a qualifier county beat a seeded team in the provincial championship first round, they'd swap places the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 18/04/2014 18:51:29    1576823

To Legendzxix -
Btw, I also took part in the recent NHL predictions competition - holding my own, I think - finishing 12th ish.

Another point I'd like to make is that full round robins are not entirely fair. I recall a few years back when Man Utd having already
wrapped up the title, faced relegation-threatened West Ham on the last day of the season. Result - West Ham 1 Man U 0.
West Ham survived after a 'soft' win - an opportunity that few (or none) of the other opponents got.
At lease in knockout competitions, a team's destiny is only in its own hands - watch for how many teams 'back in' to 2nd place
in the upcoming World Cup groups with 4 pts, after results elsewhere are favourable to the qualifier. Is this fair, based on the random
sequence of the group pairings ? I'd replace most round robin tournaments with the AIC double chance.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 19/04/2014 15:09:16    1576978

That's a fair point. Leagues are leagues though, teams being safe comes with the territory. If the AIC had groups of 4, lose two games and you're more than likely out. That already happens in the current championship. Only way to guarantee 3 games is if teams dropped into a secondary competition which does have much backing. Groups are not revolutionary as some might think. The WC will get interesting at the round of 16 stage.

Interestingly Christy Ring teams are guaranteed 3 games. Teams losing first two games find their 3rd game in the shape of relegation play-off system.

In the AIC, the majority of teams who could benefit from a third game e.g. TMC, find it beneath them. Teams who are relatively successfully will get over the odd season of only 2 days out.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 20/04/2014 11:39:25    1577535

I believe when the Div 4 teams didn't grt a second chance at Sam a few years ago, it rendered the TMC redundant. In my 24/7, I have the TMC as a feeder competition to the final Qualifying Rd - would this not be more acceptable by the weaker, and for that matter, all counties ? It could leave the entire current structure in place - only that I would have a Muns champ v Conn champ playoff. As a Corkman, I still think it would be fair to have one of Kerry, Cork, Mayo or Galway getting one front door QF slot - comparable with Ulster in particular. Your Super 16 is a levelling of the playing field too.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 20/04/2014 17:41:48    1577703

We have to agree to disagree on the Munster-Connaught play-off. Provincial champions like county champions are the same regardless of provincial/county size or number of games.
TMC possibly rendered redundant but secondary competitions are common place across many sports e.g. Europa League and Amlin Challenge Cup. Counties have no interest in a second tier competition with promotion/relegation as in the hurling. The idea of the TMC then is as a secondary competition to drop into and progress at a level for the remainder of the season. It's currently a non-runner so what can be said about it?
Having 8 teams drop into the Tommy Murphy Cup on one side is not a bad idea but 5 into 4 does not go. Munster-Connaught play-off as I say is not the way to ram it through! If 24/7 or Round of 16 is not the way forward, the provincial qualifier group coming into the hurling could be something to look at. Have the 4 weaker counties in each province start off in a qualifer group. It'll guarantee them at least 3 games. Have the top 2 advance to their provincial championship at the bottom 2 from each of the 4 qualifier groups enter the TMC as their competition over June and early July. A solution within current structures.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 20/04/2014 18:15:58    1577723