National - CCCC hurling proposals change tier 2 teams status

What happens here is that there's always a top down approach to these sorts of things. They sort it out at the top and then make it up as they go along down the bottom.

You could have a really good competition by working from the middle and trying to improve the teams with aspirations of improving themselves.

Let's say there are 10 teams seeded from the previous year. Play the NHL with these 10.

Let's offer the chance at 4 more spots to teams in this Christy Ring cup. This gets played alongside the NHL and into the time where the Provincial qualifiers would be played.

Putting 14 teams in this Christy Ring cup, you'd have something along the lines of:

Leinster: Westmeath, Laois, Carlow, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow
Ulster: Antrim, Down, Derry, Armagh
Connacht: Mayo, Roscommon,
Kerry, London

You could play a Leinster shield competition, an Ulster championship and a Connacht shield match between Mayo and Roscommon.

Teams play a total of 4 games, however many Provincial matches they play plus then inter Provincial matches to take their games up to 4. Top 6 teams qualify for the knockout rounds.

Top 2 into semifinals, 3-6 into quarterfinals.

4 semifinalists qualify for the Liam McCarthy competition. The last 2 rounds of the Christy Ring cup counts towards Liam McCarthy standings. Leinster and Munster teams also qualify play in their Provincial championships.

In total all teams play 6 Liam McCarthy cup regular season matches with Top 6 qualifying for the AI series. 7th and 8th retain their McCarthy status. 9th-12th play a relegation playoff. 13th and 14th automatically relegated.

There will be a lot of dull enough games truth be told, but I think there has to be at some point to get hurling to a position where more teams are competitive.

It could really breath some life into middle tier hurling. Get some interest back into the Ulster championship and have a Leinster shield competition that could be quite prestigious.

There's flexibility there if there are too many games. Reduce the number of Christy Ring regular season games to 3. Have only Christy Ring finalist going through to the Liam McCarthy cup where every team plays 4 regular season matches.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1725 - 07/09/2017 22:08:54   2044001

Link

Replying To janesboro:  "I'm a Limerick man and that will not promote hurling in Limerick, hurling is dying in Limerick city,the three city clubs are joined up to U21 in all hurling ages,Munster council and Limerick board need to get coaches and money in to help Limerick,
cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts:203 - 06/09/2017 18:58:01 2043569

it would help limerick hurling as we would be guaranteed 4 games with 2 at home, - other than that you are 100% correct re the game in limerick city,"
You could be right,just think that if you turn the championship into a league format,they will be no interest in it till knockout,think you end up with small crowds

cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts:214 - 07/09/2017 23:08:20   2044024

Link

Replying To TheHermit:  "Janesboro, every county is competing for the hearts and minds of young kids whether its hurling, Gaelic football, soccer or rugby.

Kerry hurling is trying to establish itself as a top 12 county, we are doing that with a playing population practically restricted to 8 clubs in only 4 parishes in North Kerry. Around 4 years ago an underage club was started in Tralee and the hope is that they will in time become an adult club.

But there is huge competition in Tralee and elsewhere in Kerry from under age soccer and rugby is also expanding, never mind the huge shadow cast by Gaelic football in the Kingdom.

Now if you were one of the people working to try and expand the playing population of hurling by trying to get a foothold in Tralee etc why would you bother now, how are you going to convince kids to play for Kerry when you see proposals like this which are effectively 2 fingers to them??

As someone who comes from what is erroneously described as a 'non-traditional' hurling county, it seems to me that it is the same old story.

The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves."
Every proposal on hurling that has ever come from Croke Park has the preservation of the "sacred cow" of the Munster championship as its ultimate aim, so you are right to point your finger at your fellow Munster men. But hey, you're a bit out of order there pointing it at Galway who have been lobbying for the past 50 years at least for an open draw championship made up of whatever counties want to participate. And in Leinster too there is a growing acceptance of the need to separate the provincial championship from the All Ireland competition so they are not as culpable as your Munster friends.

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts:801 - 08/09/2017 02:23:57   2044039

Link

Replying To cityman73:  "You could be right,just think that if you turn the championship into a league format,they will be no interest in it till knockout,think you end up with small crowds"
You could be right,just think that if you turn the championship into a league format,they will be no interest in it till knockout,think you end up with small crowds
cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts:206 - 07/09/2017 23:08:20

i think there would be an effect on crowds - but then again most qualifier matches are played in front of small enough crowds anyway compared to provincial champships.

we need more big games, 10 Munster games in limerick per season versus 4 limerick senior hurling games at home or 16 limerick fc home games, with more big games more kids get inspired to play.

janesboro (Limerick) - Posts:1502 - 08/09/2017 09:34:25   2044065

Link

Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "Every proposal on hurling that has ever come from Croke Park has the preservation of the "sacred cow" of the Munster championship as its ultimate aim, so you are right to point your finger at your fellow Munster men. But hey, you're a bit out of order there pointing it at Galway who have been lobbying for the past 50 years at least for an open draw championship made up of whatever counties want to participate. And in Leinster too there is a growing acceptance of the need to separate the provincial championship from the All Ireland competition so they are not as culpable as your Munster friends."
pool sturgeon id be inclined to keep to provincials as an integral part of the championship in all grades, they are much coveted trophies and showpiece occasions

this year
cork v clare munster final got 45k - would it have got the same if it was an all ireland quarter final or last 16 games
ditto galway v wexford in from of nearly 60k
would limerick v cork under 21 got 12k if it was a quarterfinal
i think in all cases the answer is no - provincial championships should be kept

also it makes things easier for supporters to do away games as the counties are usually (but not always) near each other (obviously not in galways case)

janesboro (Limerick) - Posts:1502 - 08/09/2017 09:38:11   2044066

Link

Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "Every proposal on hurling that has ever come from Croke Park has the preservation of the "sacred cow" of the Munster championship as its ultimate aim, so you are right to point your finger at your fellow Munster men. But hey, you're a bit out of order there pointing it at Galway who have been lobbying for the past 50 years at least for an open draw championship made up of whatever counties want to participate. And in Leinster too there is a growing acceptance of the need to separate the provincial championship from the All Ireland competition so they are not as culpable as your Munster friends."
Well we will just wait and see how Galway and the other big hurling counties in Leinster react and vote...

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:3042 - 08/09/2017 11:22:33   2044114

Link

Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "Every proposal on hurling that has ever come from Croke Park has the preservation of the "sacred cow" of the Munster championship as its ultimate aim, so you are right to point your finger at your fellow Munster men. But hey, you're a bit out of order there pointing it at Galway who have been lobbying for the past 50 years at least for an open draw championship made up of whatever counties want to participate. And in Leinster too there is a growing acceptance of the need to separate the provincial championship from the All Ireland competition so they are not as culpable as your Munster friends."
No offense but,us in Munster want to keep to the Munster championship, remember Galway played ten years in Munster and couldn't win a match.

cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts:214 - 09/09/2017 00:44:36   2044303

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "What happens here is that there's always a top down approach to these sorts of things. They sort it out at the top and then make it up as they go along down the bottom.

You could have a really good competition by working from the middle and trying to improve the teams with aspirations of improving themselves.

Let's say there are 10 teams seeded from the previous year. Play the NHL with these 10.

Let's offer the chance at 4 more spots to teams in this Christy Ring cup. This gets played alongside the NHL and into the time where the Provincial qualifiers would be played.

Putting 14 teams in this Christy Ring cup, you'd have something along the lines of:

Leinster: Westmeath, Laois, Carlow, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow
Ulster: Antrim, Down, Derry, Armagh
Connacht: Mayo, Roscommon,
Kerry, London

You could play a Leinster shield competition, an Ulster championship and a Connacht shield match between Mayo and Roscommon.

Teams play a total of 4 games, however many Provincial matches they play plus then inter Provincial matches to take their games up to 4. Top 6 teams qualify for the knockout rounds.

Top 2 into semifinals, 3-6 into quarterfinals.

4 semifinalists qualify for the Liam McCarthy competition. The last 2 rounds of the Christy Ring cup counts towards Liam McCarthy standings. Leinster and Munster teams also qualify play in their Provincial championships.

In total all teams play 6 Liam McCarthy cup regular season matches with Top 6 qualifying for the AI series. 7th and 8th retain their McCarthy status. 9th-12th play a relegation playoff. 13th and 14th automatically relegated.

There will be a lot of dull enough games truth be told, but I think there has to be at some point to get hurling to a position where more teams are competitive.

It could really breath some life into middle tier hurling. Get some interest back into the Ulster championship and have a Leinster shield competition that could be quite prestigious.

There's flexibility there if there are too many games. Reduce the number of Christy Ring regular season games to 3. Have only Christy Ring finalist going through to the Liam McCarthy cup where every team plays 4 regular season matches."
You could do something similar in football -
1) NFL decides Top 4 each Prov for respective and restricted KO Prov SFs (16 teams).
2) Prov Champ, own Prov unplayed SFlist and 2 from Non-SF 16 draws 2 others from Non-SF 16 and own Prov SF and Final opponents.
3) This creates 4 sections of '4 v 4' - all plays 4 matches prior to AI KO - and interprov pzirings played parallel with Prov Championships.
4) AI KO Rd of 16 - 8 section winners and 8 wild cards (or for wider net, 12 wild cards, but only 8 advance after 4 KO pairings).

Or - Existing Qual Rd 1 pairing draw Prov SF loser to form 8 groups of 3.
As above, Restricted Prov SF 16 (based on NFL) play 3 KO Rds (2 unbeaten to AI KO QFs).
4 beaten Prov Finalists join top 2 each Rd 1 group in 20-team KO Rd 2.
2 beaten Prov Champs to 12-team KO Rd 3 - 6 winners complete AI KO QF field.

omahant (USA) - Posts:1031 - 11/09/2017 04:11:42   2044777

Link

I appreciate some of the suggestions here like

"Putting 14 teams in this Christy Ring cup, you'd have something along the lines of:

Leinster: Westmeath, Laois, Carlow, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow
Ulster: Antrim, Down, Derry, Armagh
Connacht: Mayo, Roscommon,
Kerry, London"

The problem for teams like Laois, Westmeath and Carlow is we play Championship at
minor, U21 and Club levels.

There is a huge gap between championship and christy ring level. Carlow played mayo and
wicklow this year and the games were over after 10 minutes.

Carlow won Christy ring cup so we could escape that level and Mayo and Wicklow are 2
of the stronger teams at Ring level.

Westmeath beat Kilkenny at u21 level and Carlow beat Dublin at U21 level while Laois ran
Galway seniors close twice in recent years.

Do people really want these counties to drop down a level ?

carlovia (All) - Posts:619 - 11/09/2017 09:18:13   2044799

Link

And Kerry and Antrim are at Westmeaths and Carlows level as well so they wont
be happy at dropping down either.

carlovia (All) - Posts:619 - 11/09/2017 09:37:41   2044803

Link

Here are a number of things I would propose to help the weaker hurling counties:

1) All four club SHC semi-finalists should be allowed play in the SHC of a neighbouring Tier 1 county the following year. Purpose - Increase profile and popularity of local teams

2) A player in a Junior/Intermediate club should also be allowed play for a senior club. Purpose - create a path for local players to play at senior level

3) An outstanding player should be allowed declare for a neighbouring Tier 1 county and play for that county as long as fixtures do not clash. Purpose - create local heroes that the kids can look up to and aspire to.

liam500 (Wicklow) - Posts:46 - 11/09/2017 11:18:07   2044857

Link

was at the b final saturday as well good match enjoyed it
the happiness on the kerry lads faces and the dejection for the wicklow lads showed me there a massive appetite for a b competition among players, the poor crowd showed me there is little interest among fans.

a good tier 2 competition with automatic promotion is whats needed

janesboro (Limerick) - Posts:1502 - 11/09/2017 11:33:21   2044869

Link

Replying To carlovia:  "I appreciate some of the suggestions here like

"Putting 14 teams in this Christy Ring cup, you'd have something along the lines of:

Leinster: Westmeath, Laois, Carlow, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow
Ulster: Antrim, Down, Derry, Armagh
Connacht: Mayo, Roscommon,
Kerry, London"

The problem for teams like Laois, Westmeath and Carlow is we play Championship at
minor, U21 and Club levels.

There is a huge gap between championship and christy ring level. Carlow played mayo and
wicklow this year and the games were over after 10 minutes.

Carlow won Christy ring cup so we could escape that level and Mayo and Wicklow are 2
of the stronger teams at Ring level.

Westmeath beat Kilkenny at u21 level and Carlow beat Dublin at U21 level while Laois ran
Galway seniors close twice in recent years.

Do people really want these counties to drop down a level ?"
The thinking behind it would be that you'd want all levels to be a bit more open.

So you'd have 2 or 4 spaces open in the Liam McCarthy for the teams such as Carlow, Antrim, Westmeath, Laois, Kerry, Meath but you'd also have a good quality competition for the teams below that level to have a go at to improve.

Hurling in Ulster has not gone very well since the Ulster championship lost a lot of its meaning. It'd be possibly good for the game in the second tier Leinster counties to have a meaningful Provincial competition to play in.

I think hurling has been very closed throughout all the levels since the tiered competitions were brought in. You look at the league there's only 6 teams per level, 8 teams in Ring and Rackard. It gives more teams an opportunity at silverware but does it actually help with the standard of hurling and depth of hurling. I'd say not.

The likes of Mayo would get trounced by Carlow right now but I think if your aim is to improve standards over the next 10 years then you have to open things up more and have teams take more beatings.

As a player I always learned more from a beating than a big win.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1725 - 11/09/2017 11:34:01   2044870

Link

Replying To carlovia:  "And Kerry and Antrim are at Westmeaths and Carlows level as well so they wont
be happy at dropping down either."
Maybe 14 is too large but going to 10 initially working towards expanding further could be a way to go.

The Liam McCarthy cup would be available for the winners and finalists of this competition in the same year.

Carlow would play a mix of standard of games. Getting Ines against the strongest teams to help their development and in turn would be playing against some weaker teams to aid their development.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1725 - 11/09/2017 11:38:00   2044874

Link

Replying To omahant:  "You could do something similar in football -
1) NFL decides Top 4 each Prov for respective and restricted KO Prov SFs (16 teams).
2) Prov Champ, own Prov unplayed SFlist and 2 from Non-SF 16 draws 2 others from Non-SF 16 and own Prov SF and Final opponents.
3) This creates 4 sections of '4 v 4' - all plays 4 matches prior to AI KO - and interprov pzirings played parallel with Prov Championships.
4) AI KO Rd of 16 - 8 section winners and 8 wild cards (or for wider net, 12 wild cards, but only 8 advance after 4 KO pairings).

Or - Existing Qual Rd 1 pairing draw Prov SF loser to form 8 groups of 3.
As above, Restricted Prov SF 16 (based on NFL) play 3 KO Rds (2 unbeaten to AI KO QFs).
4 beaten Prov Finalists join top 2 each Rd 1 group in 20-team KO Rd 2.
2 beaten Prov Champs to 12-team KO Rd 3 - 6 winners complete AI KO QF field."
For football I'd have every team play 4 matches to include their Provincial championship games.

Round 1 Ulster and Leinster preliminary rounds. 4 matches. 12 Interprovincial matches for remaining 24 teams.
Round 2 Provincial quarterfinals, 2 in Connacht and Munster, 4 in Ulster and Leinster. 4 interprovincial matches for 8 remaining teams. (2 Connacht and Munster, 1 Ulster, 3 Leinster)
Round 3 Provincial semifinals, 8 other matches between 16 teams eliminated from their Province.
Round 4 Provincial finals. 12 interprovincial matches.

Have some sort of playoff system from there on in.

Maybe 2 or 3 graded cups. Maybe top 20 move on to 2 further matches to decide 12 places in the knockout stages.

In summary though it's possible to come up with a fair system with the Provincial championships played as part of the All Ireland series.

It's a pretty simple system and it's flexible so that teams will play whatever number of matches the organisers want them to play.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1725 - 11/09/2017 20:11:36   2045052

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "For football I'd have every team play 4 matches to include their Provincial championship games.

Round 1 Ulster and Leinster preliminary rounds. 4 matches. 12 Interprovincial matches for remaining 24 teams.
Round 2 Provincial quarterfinals, 2 in Connacht and Munster, 4 in Ulster and Leinster. 4 interprovincial matches for 8 remaining teams. (2 Connacht and Munster, 1 Ulster, 3 Leinster)
Round 3 Provincial semifinals, 8 other matches between 16 teams eliminated from their Province.
Round 4 Provincial finals. 12 interprovincial matches.

Have some sort of playoff system from there on in.

Maybe 2 or 3 graded cups. Maybe top 20 move on to 2 further matches to decide 12 places in the knockout stages.

In summary though it's possible to come up with a fair system with the Provincial championships played as part of the All Ireland series.

It's a pretty simple system and it's flexible so that teams will play whatever number of matches the organisers want them to play."
http://uk.reuters.com/article/soccer-tournaments/interview-soccer-mathematician-says-he-has-devised-ideal-tournament-format-idUKL3N12S5E220151028
Wham, your idea follows much of what Shara has in mind in the link -
For better balance in your idea, maybe you want to consider 'seeding' of both Prov and Inter-prov opponents.
I think once you have, say 4 matches per team (many of them competitive), and then a wide enough KO field (e.g. 20 out of 32 and 12 byes), I think I like this - say 4 seeding pots based on NFL Divisions (but avoid 1v4) -
1v1,1,2,3; 2v1,3,3,4; 3v1,2,2,4; and 4v2,3,4,4.
Again the powers that be at GAA HQ would never go for it - let alone fellow bloggers here !

omahant (USA) - Posts:1031 - 12/09/2017 03:42:57   2045119

Link

Replying To omahant:  "http://uk.reuters.com/article/soccer-tournaments/interview-soccer-mathematician-says-he-has-devised-ideal-tournament-format-idUKL3N12S5E220151028
Wham, your idea follows much of what Shara has in mind in the link -
For better balance in your idea, maybe you want to consider 'seeding' of both Prov and Inter-prov opponents.
I think once you have, say 4 matches per team (many of them competitive), and then a wide enough KO field (e.g. 20 out of 32 and 12 byes), I think I like this - say 4 seeding pots based on NFL Divisions (but avoid 1v4) -
1v1,1,2,3; 2v1,3,3,4; 3v1,2,2,4; and 4v2,3,4,4.
Again the powers that be at GAA HQ would never go for it - let alone fellow bloggers here !"
I wouldn't even seed things.

Make everything open draw. All Provincial championships, all the interprovincial competitions, there's less incentive for Provincial councils to seed their competitions. 4 games means there isn't too much luck of the draw, but I think it'd make for more excitement to have it open in every round. You'd be quite likely to get big games in every round. There also be games between lower rated teams who can dream of progress.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1725 - 12/09/2017 17:07:51   2045304

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "No just draw them each round.

If you don't have Provincial championship in a round you still play.

Play each round over 2 weeks.

It's a bit more flexible than what you were suggesting. Teams not playing in the Provincial championship quarterfinals still play during that round of fixtures, there's no need to wait around to create the groups.

You can be flexible with the number of teams entering the tournament, just needs to be an even number.

Ulster teams and Galway don't need to be part of a Province.

You can be flexible with the number of games that get played.

How many teams get eliminated at each stage.

It's a single table tournament. So there's luck of the draw in who you get but that's the case already.

If I were running hurling I'd allow 16 teams to have 3 games each.

10 teams play a 4th match.

Down to a top 6 knockout series.

I'd have a relegation playoff for the bottom 4 teams."
My idea for 12 teams would be similar - Munster 5 and Leinster 7 (KO with same 12).
Top Half of Prov Draw (Odd 3 to SFs) = M1 v (M4 or M5) and L1 v (L4 or L5).
Bottom Half of Prov Draw (Even 2 and 4 to SFs) = M2 v M3 and (L2 or L7) v (L3 or L6).
Assume low numbers are stronger teams and win Prov matches that builds a '6 in Group A v 6 in B' grid.
Week 1 (Rd 1) = 1 Muns SF, 4 Prov QFs and 1 'M1 v L1'.
Week 3 (Rd 2a) = 3 Other Prov SFs (now complete Groups, incl M1 in A, L1 in B).
Week 4 (Rd 2b) = 3 matches, incl 4 QF losers and week 1 Muns SF teams.
Week 6 (Rd 3) = 1 Muns Final, 5 Other matches.
Week 8 (Rd 4) = 1 Lein Final, 5 Other matches.
Weeks 10 & 12 (Rds 5 & 6) = 10 matches.
Now, teams in Groups A and B have completed 6 matches (3 home, 3 away).
Bottom 2 in each group are out - all 8 others compare 4-match results v Other Top 4 only.
Top 4 of 8 single table to AI SFs - top team plays lowest (4th, 3rd or 2nd) from own group in one non-repeat SF.

omahant (USA) - Posts:1031 - 20/09/2017 04:49:02   2048400

Link

So - assuming low numbers are stronger teams in my example and always win - the groups are finalised after Rd 2a as follows -
M1, M5 and L4 to Group X; while L1, L5 and M4 are put in Group Y (using X and Y instead of A and B).
This decides the group allocation for the Bottom / Even 6 as well -
L2, L6, M3 to Group X; and M2, L3, L7.
Each team usually plays every two weeks, but with one three-week interval.
For this example, I assumed low numbers were stronger teams - in reality, you could have an unseeded open draw in each prov, just like Muns today.

omahant (USA) - Posts:1031 - 20/09/2017 05:14:37   2048401

Link

Replying To omahant:  "So - assuming low numbers are stronger teams in my example and always win - the groups are finalised after Rd 2a as follows -
M1, M5 and L4 to Group X; while L1, L5 and M4 are put in Group Y (using X and Y instead of A and B).
This decides the group allocation for the Bottom / Even 6 as well -
L2, L6, M3 to Group X; and M2, L3, L7.
Each team usually plays every two weeks, but with one three-week interval.
For this example, I assumed low numbers were stronger teams - in reality, you could have an unseeded open draw in each prov, just like Muns today."
Yeah the main thing really is that an exciting championship can be made in both codes by keeping the Provincial championships as straight knockout. Giving every team the same number of games and a roughly fair chance for all. The shara format is simple, flexible and some sort of modified version is perfect for GAA in my mind.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1725 - 20/09/2017 16:44:31   2048650

Link