National - Jimmy speaking sense again

Replying To Whammo86:  "More rubbish from McGuinness today.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-bitter-truth-is-mayo-have-only-themselves-to-blame-1.3225634

It's very easy to spout all this rubbish when you know the result and they've lost. It could very easily have happened that Mayo tried to sit back and ended up getting beaten still. It'd be no easy task to close out a game for that long against a team of Dublin's class."
felt was quite a decent article myself.....they ultimately didnt close the game out like it or not

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts:1955 - 19/09/2017 23:54:27   2048383

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Jim is the only manager to have managed to beat this Dublin team under Gavin in the championship, and he took Donegal from nowhere to win Ulster Titles and an All Ireland in his 4 years in charge, so his opinions mean something to alot of people and he is spot on again as usual, of course the begrudgery of his success then and since is still evident from a lot of sources,
Mayo can complain all they like about refereeing decisions etc. but the truth is Mayo only have themselves to blame, they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory,again.
The story of this All Ireland should be how brilliant this Dublin team are, 3 in a row is a magnificent achievement, all we are hearing though is whining from Mayo, get over it,as Roy Keane might say."
one of the stranger things i do see is the hatred/begrudgery people have for him considering what he achieved...dont quite understand it myself

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts:1955 - 19/09/2017 23:55:24   2048384

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Replying To alano12:  "one of the stranger things i do see is the hatred/begrudgery people have for him considering what he achieved...dont quite understand it myself"
There is a difference between having a hatred for someone and finding it objectionable for a man to criticise an intercounry manager for making tactical decisions after only watching a game on tv. Everyone knows only a fraction of the game can be understood when watching modern gaelic football on tv. Had Mayo sat back in the last 10 minutes people would say they lost their nerve by stopping doing what had been successful for the first 60 minutes. Monaghan and Tyrone both sat back against Dublin this year and it wasn't a great tactical success. Jimmy is the only manager to have beaten Gavins Dublin but also the only manager to get tactically out-thought by Fitzmaurice in a big championship game - trying to pin this loss on the decisions of Mayo management is a cheap shot.

Soma (UK) - Posts:2017 - 20/09/2017 08:02:51   2048407

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Replying To Soma:  "There is a difference between having a hatred for someone and finding it objectionable for a man to criticise an intercounry manager for making tactical decisions after only watching a game on tv. Everyone knows only a fraction of the game can be understood when watching modern gaelic football on tv. Had Mayo sat back in the last 10 minutes people would say they lost their nerve by stopping doing what had been successful for the first 60 minutes. Monaghan and Tyrone both sat back against Dublin this year and it wasn't a great tactical success. Jimmy is the only manager to have beaten Gavins Dublin but also the only manager to get tactically out-thought by Fitzmaurice in a big championship game - trying to pin this loss on the decisions of Mayo management is a cheap shot."
Yeah that's where I'm coming from.

I have zero hatred for the man. I respect him a great deal. His success with Donegal. His work in soccer, Roger Schmidt his boss in China is a very impressive coach who'll likely manage a really top 10 European club some day which is impressive.

I really don't think I show any bitterness on here at all particularly.

I didn't like his article. I think there's also a bit of a mystique about him where there's not much criticism of what he says.

This piece is just a lazy. Yes they didn't close out the game but would trying to be defensive actually have helped them.

I really don't think so, I really don't think it was there best chance. You can't sit back on this Dublin team for over 10 minutes to retain a 2 point lead.

How do you organise your team mid game to do that. How does everyone know what jobs to do? How are they going to execute that game plan when their team is absolutely spent. Tyrone couldn't defend the 45 vs Dublin and it's a game plan they've been working on for 2 years now.

There's no way of knowing but had Mayo tried that and lost you can bet there'd be similar articles bemoaning their lack of adventure. They failed to win, that doesn't mean they didn't give themselves their best chance to do so.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1725 - 20/09/2017 10:04:00   2048439

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah that's where I'm coming from.

I have zero hatred for the man. I respect him a great deal. His success with Donegal. His work in soccer, Roger Schmidt his boss in China is a very impressive coach who'll likely manage a really top 10 European club some day which is impressive.

I really don't think I show any bitterness on here at all particularly.

I didn't like his article. I think there's also a bit of a mystique about him where there's not much criticism of what he says.

This piece is just a lazy. Yes they didn't close out the game but would trying to be defensive actually have helped them.

I really don't think so, I really don't think it was there best chance. You can't sit back on this Dublin team for over 10 minutes to retain a 2 point lead.

How do you organise your team mid game to do that. How does everyone know what jobs to do? How are they going to execute that game plan when their team is absolutely spent. Tyrone couldn't defend the 45 vs Dublin and it's a game plan they've been working on for 2 years now.

There's no way of knowing but had Mayo tried that and lost you can bet there'd be similar articles bemoaning their lack of adventure. They failed to win, that doesn't mean they didn't give themselves their best chance to do so."
You make some fair points in that but surely a team the quality of Mayo should be capable of a mid game tactical adjustment? I think what Jim couldn't believe is how easy Dublin got in for their 2 points to level the game up after Mayo had taken a 2 point lead with less that 10 mins of normal time remaining. Dublin would of got everyone behind the ball if it had been the other way round to make sure a Mayo player would at best get a shot under pressure and found ways to slow the game down like they did after Rock's winning score. Mayo didn't change anything. In the build up to the game I heard David Brady make a point, in one of the hundred build up programmes he was on, that it was important that Mayo slowed Dublin down if they got ahead. He even said that the Mayo forwards should take turns taking yellow cards for kicking the ball off the tee to stop Cluxton's quick restarts. I believe this is the sort of stuff that was needed in those last 10 mins. Winning by any means necessary. I remember Barry John Keane doing this to Paul Durcan in 2014 just after he came on as a sub. It's the first thing Conor Loftus should of done when he came on for Andy Moran. Just look what Dublin did after Rock's point. Clarke's tee was thrown away and at least 4 Dublin players dragged Mayo players to the ground. If you don't think this is something that Dublin hadn't planned for then your very naive. Obviously Mayo didn't.

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts:293 - 20/09/2017 16:12:48   2048629

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Replying To Mobot:  "You make some fair points in that but surely a team the quality of Mayo should be capable of a mid game tactical adjustment? I think what Jim couldn't believe is how easy Dublin got in for their 2 points to level the game up after Mayo had taken a 2 point lead with less that 10 mins of normal time remaining. Dublin would of got everyone behind the ball if it had been the other way round to make sure a Mayo player would at best get a shot under pressure and found ways to slow the game down like they did after Rock's winning score. Mayo didn't change anything. In the build up to the game I heard David Brady make a point, in one of the hundred build up programmes he was on, that it was important that Mayo slowed Dublin down if they got ahead. He even said that the Mayo forwards should take turns taking yellow cards for kicking the ball off the tee to stop Cluxton's quick restarts. I believe this is the sort of stuff that was needed in those last 10 mins. Winning by any means necessary. I remember Barry John Keane doing this to Paul Durcan in 2014 just after he came on as a sub. It's the first thing Conor Loftus should of done when he came on for Andy Moran. Just look what Dublin did after Rock's point. Clarke's tee was thrown away and at least 4 Dublin players dragged Mayo players to the ground. If you don't think this is something that Dublin hadn't planned for then your very naive. Obviously Mayo didn't."
There's a big difference in doing it with time nearly up compared to doing it with over 10 minutes to play.

I'm not on the wind up here but looking back on last years Ulster final Donegal didn't close out a game that they were in control of. There's pitfalls to trying it.

My big problem is that you're inviting Dublin into their comfort zone. They are used to playing against massed defence at this stage. They thrive on it. I think it would've been a real pick off job.

Again you can look back at last year and how Kerry tried to play on the counter in the semifinal and it didn't work.

I kind of expect better from his articles and recently they've been a bit tired seeming, going over very familiar ground and something any old hack could write.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1725 - 20/09/2017 16:37:11   2048645

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Winning by any means necessary means there is no game left. Look up the definition of a game It has to have rules and a boundary to behaviour Total cynicism is destroying gaelic football and so it is no longer a game just a riot with a balloon somewhere in the middle of it driven by a media circus worse than Nero's collosseum.

cjx (Tyrone) - Posts:244 - 20/09/2017 17:05:50   2048662

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