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Football Championship structure

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Why not have a Senior, Intermediate and Junior grade for football like in Ladies football and camogie? Not much point having Dublin (Senior) hammering Junior teams like Westmesth year in year out. Give every county 5 years to get their house in order and seed teams based on their league positions. Play the finals over the same weekend as the All Ireland? Not much point to the so called super 8 making the Senior teams stronger. Just a thought?

AnnieXcuse (Longford) - Posts: 7 - 01/07/2017 14:43:57    2008349

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Replying To AnnieXcuse:  "Why not have a Senior, Intermediate and Junior grade for football like in Ladies football and camogie? Not much point having Dublin (Senior) hammering Junior teams like Westmesth year in year out. Give every county 5 years to get their house in order and seed teams based on their league positions. Play the finals over the same weekend as the All Ireland? Not much point to the so called super 8 making the Senior teams stronger. Just a thought?"
There's been a hundred of these threads already.

I've been responsible for too much of it myself and it's been discussed to death!

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 01/07/2017 15:15:35    2008357

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's been a hundred of these threads already.

I've been responsible for too much of it myself and it's been discussed to death!"
So, it's a dead duck? Teams going through qualifiers that have no chance of wining anything. What's the point!

AnnieXcuse (Longford) - Posts: 7 - 01/07/2017 15:38:18    2008367

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Another structures thread.

Savage!!

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 01/07/2017 15:43:06    2008369

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Replying To AnnieXcuse:  "Why not have a Senior, Intermediate and Junior grade for football like in Ladies football and camogie? Not much point having Dublin (Senior) hammering Junior teams like Westmesth year in year out. Give every county 5 years to get their house in order and seed teams based on their league positions. Play the finals over the same weekend as the All Ireland? Not much point to the so called super 8 making the Senior teams stronger. Just a thought?"
Because it make too much sense to do things in the correct way for once.

No disrespect to the weaker counties but its hard to get anyway excited until August at the earliest with only one or two important games in 9 months of football is not enough.

Your idea seems like the best way forward.

KY4SAM2015 (Kerry) - Posts: 898 - 01/07/2017 15:44:57    2008370

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Never understood why players don't want this, maybe they just don't want to admit they aren't good enough? Take my own county for example, our "goal" for a few years now has been to reach an AI semi, I'd take a win in September even if it was just for a "B" AI, what's the point of an amateur competition where there is only a single winner every year and usually only 4 teams with any chance?

Iamlegion666 (Monaghan) - Posts: 285 - 01/07/2017 16:15:56    2008383

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Replying To AnnieXcuse:  "So, it's a dead duck? Teams going through qualifiers that have no chance of wining anything. What's the point!"
What's the point in Ireland playing international football, we're never going to win the World Cup. Why did Tipperary play last years Munster championship, they didn't win it. They then shouldn't have entered the qualifiers either sure they didn't even make it to the AI final.

Why do we do anything, sure we'll all be dead someday.

Only 1 team wins the All Ireland. That's not what playing a sport is all about.

I agree with structures needing changed, read any of my 100 different posts on this site, covering probably about 20 different potential formats.

I hate this what's the point attitude. County squads have 30 players training half the year for these matches and tens of thousands of people go to watch these games. So there is some point.

This topic has been done to death on here. Your proposal has been covered by others. There are pros and there are huge cons to it, like practically all the other systems that are on here.

For me the biggest problem is that the league is a preseason competition. Play it alongside championship and you sort out a tonne of problems.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 01/07/2017 16:20:53    2008387

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Senior: 12 teams
3 groups with 4 teams in each group.
Top two teams plus two best third teams in to the quarter-finals.
Group winner with the best record would play the eight ranked team and so on:
A) 1 v 8
B) 4 v 5
C) 2 v 7
D) 3 v 6
Semi Finals:
1) A V B
2) C V D
Final:
1 v 2. The winner would be the senior champions.

Relegation play-offs would be the 3 bottom teams plus the third team with the worse record:
Bottom team with the worse record v third team with the worse record.
Two other bottom teams play each other in the other semi.
The two losers meet each other in the relegation play-off final with the loser going down to Inter the following season.

Inter: 12 teams
3 groups with 4 teams in each group.
Top two teams plus two best third teams in to the quarter-finals.
Group winner with the best record would play the eight ranked team and so on:
A) 1 v 8
B) 4 v 5
C) 2 v 7
D) 3 v 6
Semi Finals:
1) A V B
2) C V D
Final:
1 v 2. The winner would be the Inter champions and be promoted to Senior the following year.

Relegation play-offs would be the 3 bottom teams plus the third team with the worse record:
Bottom team with the worse record v third team with the worse record.
Two other bottom teams play each other in the other semi.
The two losers meet each other in the relegation play-off final with the loser going down to Inter the following season.

Junior: 8 teams
2 groups with 4 teams in each group.
The top two going through to the semi-finals (Winner Group 1 v Runner Up Group 2, Winner Group 2 v Runner Up Group 1).
The winner would be Junior champions and be promoted to Inter the following year.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 01/07/2017 17:34:31    2008411

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It's called the ALL Ireland because ALL the counties in Ireland, that want one, have a chance to compete for it.

The GAA in their wisdom have done a good job of disenfranchising club football. They want to create an elite Super 8, a bit like separating the Premier League teams in soccer from those of a lesser standard. They have no interest in improving standards of Division 3 and 4 standard teams who will never improve if there is a B championship introduced and all these counties are also down there and playing division 3 and 4 standard. There's little or no coverage of Division 3 and 4 teams as it is. There'll be practically none if there's an A and B or A, B and C championships. And never will you see runs to the semis from Fermanagh, Wexford and Tipperary who in those great years weren't happy to be told they were a B standard.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7337 - 01/07/2017 18:03:55    2008424

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Every structure possible has been discussed and floated around. Enjoy the inter-county and club games! There's still plenty of football to be played within counties after the inter-county teams are out.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7824 - 01/07/2017 22:16:47    2008617

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's been a hundred of these threads already.

I've been responsible for too much of it myself and it's been discussed to death!"
Sick to death sounds like :) ....me too actually......probably driven by lack of proper reform at official level / GAA HQ.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 01/07/2017 23:23:16    2008656

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Can you bear one more.....
Merge NFL into Championship.
Northern 16 has Louth, Longford, Westmeath, Uster, Connacht less Galway.
These 16 are divided into 4 divisions of 4 - Divs 1 North to 4 North.
The South 16 (incl London) form 4 divisions of 4 as well - Divs 1 South to 4 South.
Each team plays 10 regular season matches - twice against own div and once against same div in other region.
One up / one down between each quartet.
All -Ireland KO Last 12 - 6 winners Divs 2, 3, 4 join 6 non-relegated Div 1 teams.
4 byes to AI QFs from both Divs 1s top 2s- other 8 play for other 4 slots.
AI QFs - 1N 1st v (2S or 4N); 1S 2nd v (1N 3rd or 3S); 1S 1st v (2N or 4S); 1N 2nd v (1S 3rd or 3N).
AI SFs (expected based on seeding) - 1N 1st v 1S 2nd and 1S 1st v 1N 2nd.
Teams play 10 matches at own level - all have chance at AI.
Top 4 in each Prov in NFL play in restricted and separate Prov SFs (4 champs could get byes instead).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 02/07/2017 00:54:25    2008710

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Replying To Whammo86:  "What's the point in Ireland playing international football, we're never going to win the World Cup. Why did Tipperary play last years Munster championship, they didn't win it. They then shouldn't have entered the qualifiers either sure they didn't even make it to the AI final.

Why do we do anything, sure we'll all be dead someday.

Only 1 team wins the All Ireland. That's not what playing a sport is all about.

I agree with structures needing changed, read any of my 100 different posts on this site, covering probably about 20 different potential formats.

I hate this what's the point attitude. County squads have 30 players training half the year for these matches and tens of thousands of people go to watch these games. So there is some point.

This topic has been done to death on here. Your proposal has been covered by others. There are pros and there are huge cons to it, like practically all the other systems that are on here.

For me the biggest problem is that the league is a preseason competition. Play it alongside championship and you sort out a tonne of problems."
Yes highly unlikely Ireland will win the world cup but in soccer underdogs always have a better chance at succeeding compared to gaa. Take Greece winning the euros in 2004 i think or Leicester in the premiership a few years ago.

These teams have proven it can be done but in all fairness the likes of Wicklow in football or Kerry in hurling will never in the foreseeable future have even a slight chance to win an All Ireland at Senior level.

KY4SAM2015 (Kerry) - Posts: 898 - 02/07/2017 09:56:07    2008780

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Replying To omahant:  "Can you bear one more.....
Merge NFL into Championship.
Northern 16 has Louth, Longford, Westmeath, Uster, Connacht less Galway.
These 16 are divided into 4 divisions of 4 - Divs 1 North to 4 North.
The South 16 (incl London) form 4 divisions of 4 as well - Divs 1 South to 4 South.
Each team plays 10 regular season matches - twice against own div and once against same div in other region.
One up / one down between each quartet.
All -Ireland KO Last 12 - 6 winners Divs 2, 3, 4 join 6 non-relegated Div 1 teams.
4 byes to AI QFs from both Divs 1s top 2s- other 8 play for other 4 slots.
AI QFs - 1N 1st v (2S or 4N); 1S 2nd v (1N 3rd or 3S); 1S 1st v (2N or 4S); 1N 2nd v (1S 3rd or 3N).
AI SFs (expected based on seeding) - 1N 1st v 1S 2nd and 1S 1st v 1N 2nd.
Teams play 10 matches at own level - all have chance at AI.
Top 4 in each Prov in NFL play in restricted and separate Prov SFs (4 champs could get byes instead)."
had something similar in mind but by keeping provincial structure in place

Connacht 5 teams
Ulster plus London 10 teams - split into 2 groups of 5
Lenister 11 teams - split into groups of 6 and 5
Munster 6 teams

winner of each group in Lenister and Ulster play in provincial final, in others winners are champs, or top two can play a final.

Championship then split into 2 , 16 Senior , 16 for intermediate

Top two in each provincial league go into senior, bottom 2 into intermediate. Remaining teams play off to decide remaining teams in each.

4 groups of 4 in each, top 2 into quarters.

Play intermediate final the night before the Senior final in Croke Park, also have some major incentive for winning the intermediate, (eg)guaranteed place in senior next year,

Rosineri1 (UK) - Posts: 2099 - 06/07/2017 16:30:36    2011573

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Replying To omahant:  "Can you bear one more.....
Merge NFL into Championship.
Northern 16 has Louth, Longford, Westmeath, Uster, Connacht less Galway.
These 16 are divided into 4 divisions of 4 - Divs 1 North to 4 North.
The South 16 (incl London) form 4 divisions of 4 as well - Divs 1 South to 4 South.
Each team plays 10 regular season matches - twice against own div and once against same div in other region.
One up / one down between each quartet.
All -Ireland KO Last 12 - 6 winners Divs 2, 3, 4 join 6 non-relegated Div 1 teams.
4 byes to AI QFs from both Divs 1s top 2s- other 8 play for other 4 slots.
AI QFs - 1N 1st v (2S or 4N); 1S 2nd v (1N 3rd or 3S); 1S 1st v (2N or 4S); 1N 2nd v (1S 3rd or 3N).
AI SFs (expected based on seeding) - 1N 1st v 1S 2nd and 1S 1st v 1N 2nd.
Teams play 10 matches at own level - all have chance at AI.
Top 4 in each Prov in NFL play in restricted and separate Prov SFs (4 champs could get byes instead)."
This would encourage teams to tank to play at a lower level.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 07/07/2017 17:03:13    2012067

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Replying To omahant:  "Can you bear one more.....
Merge NFL into Championship.
Northern 16 has Louth, Longford, Westmeath, Uster, Connacht less Galway.
These 16 are divided into 4 divisions of 4 - Divs 1 North to 4 North.
The South 16 (incl London) form 4 divisions of 4 as well - Divs 1 South to 4 South.
Each team plays 10 regular season matches - twice against own div and once against same div in other region.
One up / one down between each quartet.
All -Ireland KO Last 12 - 6 winners Divs 2, 3, 4 join 6 non-relegated Div 1 teams.
4 byes to AI QFs from both Divs 1s top 2s- other 8 play for other 4 slots.
AI QFs - 1N 1st v (2S or 4N); 1S 2nd v (1N 3rd or 3S); 1S 1st v (2N or 4S); 1N 2nd v (1S 3rd or 3N).
AI SFs (expected based on seeding) - 1N 1st v 1S 2nd and 1S 1st v 1N 2nd.
Teams play 10 matches at own level - all have chance at AI.
Top 4 in each Prov in NFL play in restricted and separate Prov SFs (4 champs could get byes instead)."
I only ever see you post the most convoluted structures imaginable, make no sense and don't fix any of the problems

iwantwhiteboots (Donegal) - Posts: 4 - 07/07/2017 18:40:32    2012097

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the only change completely necessary is balancing the provincials, cavan/fermanagh and Longford/westmeath/offaly alternate into connacht
2 of offaly/carlow/wexford/laois into Munster,
4 provs of 8 and no more 1 win against leitrim getting Prov finals, or prelim rounds

iwantwhiteboots (Donegal) - Posts: 4 - 07/07/2017 21:35:40    2012161

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Replying To Whammo86:  "This would encourage teams to tank to play at a lower level."
Well....in a given year, I think teams would want to advance as much as possible....a team would need to deliberately tank and sacrafice say two consecutive years to move down from Div 2 to 4. If a team goes down to Div 4 then what - they walk it but are then left with no choice but go up the next year - would they sacrafice another tanking year for the pleasure of walking another Div 4 ? - I don't think so. Of the more competitive teams, 4 of the top 5 in each region account for 8 of the 12 KO teams (the other 4 are Div 3 and 4 group winners).
The KO pairings seed the stronger teams - the QFs should be between the following year's Div 1 contingent only (unless upsets).
The beauty is all play 10 matches at their own grade.
In decades past, the NFL's 4 divisions of 8 produced 8 QFinalists playing for one NFL title (top 4, 2, 1, 1 qualifying from respective divisions).
I do something similar with skew more in favour of top ranked teams (all Div 1 non relegated play for seeding and going thru - 6, 2, 2, 2).
Also, in my seeding, I target Div 1 v 3 and Divs 2 v 4 in AI QFs to avoid the greatest blowouts (Divs 1 v 4).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 07/07/2017 23:20:08    2012208

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.....that should read.....Divs 1 v 3 and Divs 2 v 4 pairings in 1st KO Rd leading to AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 07/07/2017 23:26:52    2012210

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Wham.....the 3 div structure you had sometime ago - what was it again - quantities of 14, 10, 8, I think - with higher divs playing additional group games as lower divs start playoffs earlier - why would tanking not apply here given your thought process - more teams making the KO throughout ? - but I think you had only half of the top Div qualifying - fueling greater tanking ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 07/07/2017 23:38:20    2012218

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