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While there has been a lot or talk of the sweeper system being fazed out this year, on closer inspection that is not the case!!
Wexford for one are committed to using the sweeper, it would be very surprising if davy doesnt do it again this sunday against a very talented galway forward line.
Waterford used a sweeper for a period of their defeat to cork.
But aside from those examples we can see in other teams how the "sweeper" is developing.
As teams apparently move away from a sweeper what we are now seeing is that teams do not want their center back to be taken out of position. Therefore using cork and mark ellis as an example - ellis sits back pretty deep and holds his center back position. He plays a lot of ball over the course of a game and is very dominant.
The flip side of this is that (against waterford) pauric mahony - his direct opponent got 4 or 5 points from play and was one of waterfords best players.
It was the same at the other side of the field, tadhg de burca sat back very deep and of course played a lot of ball himself while at the same time making conor lehane look like a world beater as he scored 4 or 5 points - but there was no one marking him. Similarly in the cork tipp game, lehane was named man of the match - but ronan maher didnt leave his center back position allowing lehane to play all the hurling he wanted.
We had the exact same thing in leinster when galway played dublin - joe canning had a great game. Taking scores and setting them up but there way no one closely marking him as liam rushe's main concern was protecting his goal not marking canning.
So basically if teams play their best forwards at no.11 they will more than likely get 4 or 5 points due to the freedom they are given. While the tactic is effective in decreasing goal scoring chances and closing down space through the center the no.11 is free to do what he wants.
So we have not seen the end of the sweeper - just a more subble use of it. Is facinating to see it develops. The deep lying 6 is the new "sweeper" and 2017 is most definitely the year to be a center forward!!
hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1941 - 26/06/2017 20:12:36
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Interesting discussion, cheers guys
hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1941 - 28/06/2017 10:41:59
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Replying To hurlingexpert: "While there has been a lot or talk of the sweeper system being fazed out this year, on closer inspection that is not the case!!
Wexford for one are committed to using the sweeper, it would be very surprising if davy doesnt do it again this sunday against a very talented galway forward line.
Waterford used a sweeper for a period of their defeat to cork.
But aside from those examples we can see in other teams how the "sweeper" is developing.
As teams apparently move away from a sweeper what we are now seeing is that teams do not want their center back to be taken out of position. Therefore using cork and mark ellis as an example - ellis sits back pretty deep and holds his center back position. He plays a lot of ball over the course of a game and is very dominant.
The flip side of this is that (against waterford) pauric mahony - his direct opponent got 4 or 5 points from play and was one of waterfords best players.
It was the same at the other side of the field, tadhg de burca sat back very deep and of course played a lot of ball himself while at the same time making conor lehane look like a world beater as he scored 4 or 5 points - but there was no one marking him. Similarly in the cork tipp game, lehane was named man of the match - but ronan maher didnt leave his center back position allowing lehane to play all the hurling he wanted.
We had the exact same thing in leinster when galway played dublin - joe canning had a great game. Taking scores and setting them up but there way no one closely marking him as liam rushe's main concern was protecting his goal not marking canning.
So basically if teams play their best forwards at no.11 they will more than likely get 4 or 5 points due to the freedom they are given. While the tactic is effective in decreasing goal scoring chances and closing down space through the center the no.11 is free to do what he wants.
So we have not seen the end of the sweeper - just a more subble use of it. Is facinating to see it develops. The deep lying 6 is the new "sweeper" and 2017 is most definitely the year to be a center forward!!" Brian Cody has deployed the deep lying centre back since Galway ran in 5 goals back in the AI Semi-final they lost out in.
Big Brian Hogan very seldom ventured further out any more than 60 yards and more often than not lay much deeper with the two midfielders covering in and in turn the half forwards were well into midfield. The also created the added bonus of huge spaces in front of their full forward line which the likes of Shefflin and Eddie Brennan exploited for years.
Kilkenny didn't conceded many goals in their prime and this was one of the main reasons for this.
bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2503 - 28/06/2017 11:17:03
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How effective is it?
Clare used two sweepers to beat Limerick in 2013 & scored 1-18 but in the finals against Cork they played more off the cuff and scored 0-25 and 5-16 respectively. As the previous poster referenced, some teams make a big deal of it, picking a lad at 13 & sticking him between the two back lines, some like Kilkenny have played the deep centre back. Limerick picked Seamus Hickey at Wing forward in the 2013 Munster Final but he played anywhere but there & created a massive load of space down that flank.
When Daly managed Dublin I always thought they were limiting their scoring potential by playing 7 backs and 5 forwards.
If a county side can find 6 aggressive, fast, close marking backs, is there any need for a sweeper?
Finally, one thing I'd like to see teams do is to have the balls to counteract a sweeper by marking him. Rather than have 7 v 6 in both halves, trust your team by marking their sweeper. If we had done that v Clare in 2013 I thought we'd have been better off. Put Richie McCarthy up on their sweepers & let him off. If a sweeper is marked he will find it hard to be a sweeper.
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 28/06/2017 12:27:57
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Replying To slayer: "How effective is it?
Clare used two sweepers to beat Limerick in 2013 & scored 1-18 but in the finals against Cork they played more off the cuff and scored 0-25 and 5-16 respectively. As the previous poster referenced, some teams make a big deal of it, picking a lad at 13 & sticking him between the two back lines, some like Kilkenny have played the deep centre back. Limerick picked Seamus Hickey at Wing forward in the 2013 Munster Final but he played anywhere but there & created a massive load of space down that flank.
When Daly managed Dublin I always thought they were limiting their scoring potential by playing 7 backs and 5 forwards.
If a county side can find 6 aggressive, fast, close marking backs, is there any need for a sweeper?
Finally, one thing I'd like to see teams do is to have the balls to counteract a sweeper by marking him. Rather than have 7 v 6 in both halves, trust your team by marking their sweeper. If we had done that v Clare in 2013 I thought we'd have been better off. Put Richie McCarthy up on their sweepers & let him off. If a sweeper is marked he will find it hard to be a sweeper." "Finally, one thing I'd like to see teams do is to have the balls to counteract a sweeper by marking him."
brian cody tried that v wexford,he pushed padraig walsh up on the sweper,all it did was create space for our forwards to exploit.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 28/06/2017 12:50:57
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Replying To slayer: "How effective is it?
Clare used two sweepers to beat Limerick in 2013 & scored 1-18 but in the finals against Cork they played more off the cuff and scored 0-25 and 5-16 respectively. As the previous poster referenced, some teams make a big deal of it, picking a lad at 13 & sticking him between the two back lines, some like Kilkenny have played the deep centre back. Limerick picked Seamus Hickey at Wing forward in the 2013 Munster Final but he played anywhere but there & created a massive load of space down that flank.
When Daly managed Dublin I always thought they were limiting their scoring potential by playing 7 backs and 5 forwards.
If a county side can find 6 aggressive, fast, close marking backs, is there any need for a sweeper?
Finally, one thing I'd like to see teams do is to have the balls to counteract a sweeper by marking him. Rather than have 7 v 6 in both halves, trust your team by marking their sweeper. If we had done that v Clare in 2013 I thought we'd have been better off. Put Richie McCarthy up on their sweepers & let him off. If a sweeper is marked he will find it hard to be a sweeper." Why would you mark a sweeper? I don't see the logic to it. A sweeper never won an All Ireland and never will. Any team Waterford have beaten have been teams they'd beat 15v15.
There's a difference between a sweeper and a deep lying centre back. Noel McGrath went to town on KK and Waterford in the same year despite being a teenager and being on Ken Mcgrath and Brian Hogan because there roles allowed him too as much as anything and neither team had faith in their full back. For this reason I'm always surprised why more teams don't play their best hurler at centre forward. A lot of club teams do the opposite and try to "stop" the centre back from hurling. Make the centre back come out and mark the man!
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 28/06/2017 13:16:49
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Replying To tiobraid: "Why would you mark a sweeper? I don't see the logic to it. A sweeper never won an All Ireland and never will. Any team Waterford have beaten have been teams they'd beat 15v15.
There's a difference between a sweeper and a deep lying centre back. Noel McGrath went to town on KK and Waterford in the same year despite being a teenager and being on Ken Mcgrath and Brian Hogan because there roles allowed him too as much as anything and neither team had faith in their full back. For this reason I'm always surprised why more teams don't play their best hurler at centre forward. A lot of club teams do the opposite and try to "stop" the centre back from hurling. Make the centre back come out and mark the man!" To stop them from having space & keep it as man to man all over the field.
The sort of thing suggested here about playing a very good hurler centre forward - Dublin did that to Limerick in 2011 by playing Ryan O'Dwyer centre forward on Brian Geary. He ran Brian all over the field and scored 3-3. Running after a lad like that wasn't Geary's game - he was a superb hurler at keeping his position and winning the ball. Once O'Dwyer started wandering then maybe a nippy player on him would have been the answer. Geary was one of our lads who stood up to Kilkenny's black arts on All Ireland final day 2007. Seeing him being run out to all the other positions was poor.
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 28/06/2017 17:13:37
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