National Forum

What Needs To Be Done To Finally Get Rid Of The Provincial System?

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winning leinster was great and beating kk sweetened the deal,but if we came top 2 of a group that had wexford,dublin,galway,limerick,tipp and waterford i would enjoy that equally.
my tuppence worth is in hurling,have 2 x groups of 6,top two play group finals.
likewise in football,there is surely something to be said for either 6x5 groups and 2 6x6 groups,i dont think anyone would mind a group of 6 if the other 5 counties got a trip to the big apple out of it.
but as we all know,change in the gaa happens at the rate of glaciers movement

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3523 - 09/10/2019 13:27:38    2242339

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Replying To perfect10:  "winning leinster was great and beating kk sweetened the deal,but if we came top 2 of a group that had wexford,dublin,galway,limerick,tipp and waterford i would enjoy that equally.
my tuppence worth is in hurling,have 2 x groups of 6,top two play group finals.
likewise in football,there is surely something to be said for either 6x5 groups and 2 6x6 groups,i dont think anyone would mind a group of 6 if the other 5 counties got a trip to the big apple out of it.
but as we all know,change in the gaa happens at the rate of glaciers movement"
Glaciers are on the move now

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1296 - 09/10/2019 14:00:17    2242350

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Replying To Donegalman:  "Provincials are all that the smaller counties (outside the big 2 at the moment) can hope to win. I don't think there will be a big rush to get rid of them for that reason. Factor in the tradition of provincials into a conservative organisation like the GAA and there is no way they will get rid of them."
You make a good case for tiering - whether intentionally or not.

Teams need to be playing at their own level. I mentioned Munster Hurling and Ulster Football earlier; they're good competitions because, by and large, teams are indeed playing at their own level.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 88 - 09/10/2019 16:52:01    2242396

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "You make a good case for tiering - whether intentionally or not.

Teams need to be playing at their own level. I mentioned Munster Hurling and Ulster Football earlier; they're good competitions because, by and large, teams are indeed playing at their own level."
If we do ever get a real teir 2 anyone know at what level some of the other British counties are at and would they be interested same as they are in hurling

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 330 - 09/10/2019 17:44:42    2242404

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if we want to get rid of provincial system its very simple, stop going to matches! money talks to the gaa [us] but thats not going to happen, we wiil still go, the same as we always have, the provinces are still making and taking in big money so it wont change

Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 1709 - 09/10/2019 18:34:03    2242409

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if the players want the provincial silverware then I am for it remaining as is. Just because Colm O Rourke has no optimism about Meath ever winning Leinster again is not a great reason for scrapping them either. Money will decide anyway.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1296 - 09/10/2019 19:03:14    2242416

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "You make a good case for tiering - whether intentionally or not.

Teams need to be playing at their own level. I mentioned Munster Hurling and Ulster Football earlier; they're good competitions because, by and large, teams are indeed playing at their own level."
So no team should be playing Dublin then?

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1609 - 09/10/2019 20:20:24    2242435

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Needs completely to be scrapped.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4197 - 09/10/2019 20:57:33    2242441

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Replying To oldsam_newsam:  "Two very significant interventions in to the Provincial Championships debate

"It's over as far as I'm concerned"

Former Longford manager Dennis Connerton says the Leinster SFC is "a lame duck".

https://hoganstand.com/Meath/Article/Index/304732


Time to "get rid of the provincial systems"

Colm O'Rourke says the provincial football championships should be scrapped.

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/304721


I realise that my contribution is just to copy and paste from 2 articles but, to varying degrees, the provincial (bar Ulster football and Munster hurling) are dead.

Can there be a serious discussion at the top level into the GAA that can provide an alternative that provides decent competition for players and supporters and that Ulster (Football) and Munster (Hurling) level of competition is not lost for those counties?"
Taking it away would be a big mistake.
Counties like Cork, Roscommon, Cavan, and even Meath and Tipp for example have a aims to win a Provincial title and with some work can be realistic as it has been for Roscommon's recently. Take away the provinicals and a lot of these counties have no chance of winning anything meaningful.
Most peoples plan is to remove 5 cship titles are replace with 2. The hurling structure of the lower tiers has worked ok and could be improved with some tweaks. Getting rid of the provincials shouldnt happen in my opinion.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 2751 - 09/10/2019 21:24:23    2242449

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Replying To perfect10:  "winning leinster was great and beating kk sweetened the deal,but if we came top 2 of a group that had wexford,dublin,galway,limerick,tipp and waterford i would enjoy that equally.
my tuppence worth is in hurling,have 2 x groups of 6,top two play group finals.
likewise in football,there is surely something to be said for either 6x5 groups and 2 6x6 groups,i dont think anyone would mind a group of 6 if the other 5 counties got a trip to the big apple out of it.
but as we all know,change in the gaa happens at the rate of glaciers movement"
You would enjoy topping a group the same as winning a Leinster? I find that hard to believe and I doubt you'd find a Wexford player agreeing with that either

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 2751 - 09/10/2019 21:27:00    2242450

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Replying To superbluedub:  "And for the umpteenth time you role out this rotate Dublin around the provinces rubbish , we heard you all ready , we all know what you want , no need for this constant obsession to be repeated year after year , what about Waterford Tipp and Limerick in Munster , over a hundred years since they won a Munster title , Kerry have won 81 Munster titles , Munster is more of a basket case than Leinster , but you don't give a monkeys about these counties , how come there's no call from yourself about sending Kerry around the provences to give these counties a realistic chance of winning a Munster title ??"
Take your point but don't pull stats out of nowhere to make a point.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 2751 - 09/10/2019 21:34:20    2242451

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Here's an idea based on the ladies' football championship. All the Tier 1 counties would take part in their provincial championship, but not Tier 2 counties. So, say you were doing it this year based on the composition of Divisions 1 and 2, you'd have:
Kerry, Clare, Cork and Tipp in Munster,
Mayo, Galway and Roscommon in Connacht,
Tyrone, Monaghan, Cavan, Donegal, Fermanagh and Armagh in Ulster, and
Dublin, Meath and Kildare in Leinster.
(If promotion and relegation between Divisions 2 and 3 counted, then you'd have just Kerry and Clare in Munster, and you'd add Westmeath and Laois to Leinster.) Then, when the provincials are over, you'd stick all 16 teams into the All-Ireland series, 4 groups of 4, and you'd probably keep the provincial champions apart. And so on.

For relegation to Tier 2 (assuming 1 up, 1 down), the bottom team in each group would go into a relegation series, except that provincial champions would be exempt from relegation.

So the provincial championships would be shorter and more competitive, and would provide the champions with seeding in the group stage and immunity from relegation.

One obvious problem with the above: in this example, you'd have six teams in Ulster but only three in Connacht (or maybe even two in Munster).

Tier 2 would be similar. Again, based on this year's Div 3 and 4, you'd have two (or 4) teams from Munster, three teams from Connacht (I included London), three teams from Ulster and eight (or 6) teams from Leinster. (Which kind of proves my point from another thread about how the rest of Leinster need to shape up.) Again, big contrast between the number of teams in each championship.

One more thing: maybe you could give the Tier 2 winners a quarterfinal (or preliminary quarterfinal) spot in the Tier 1 competition in the same year as they win Tier 2, as well as being part of it in their own right the following year, much like how the Joe McDonagh winners and runners-up get a crack at Liam in the same year.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 532 - 09/10/2019 23:17:10    2242474

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Give the dubs more money lads I wonder who they would buy if there was a transfer system in place. They awould be the man City of gaa or should I say they are the man City of gaa as things stand

traleegerry (Kerry) - Posts: 488 - 10/10/2019 03:15:33    2242482

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Replying To traleegerry:  "Give the dubs more money lads I wonder who they would buy if there was a transfer system in place. They awould be the man City of gaa or should I say they are the man City of gaa as things stand"
That's completely off topic.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2762 - 10/10/2019 09:44:48    2242503

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Taking it away would be a big mistake.
Counties like Cork, Roscommon, Cavan, and even Meath and Tipp for example have a aims to win a Provincial title and with some work can be realistic as it has been for Roscommon's recently. Take away the provinicals and a lot of these counties have no chance of winning anything meaningful.
Most peoples plan is to remove 5 cship titles are replace with 2. The hurling structure of the lower tiers has worked ok and could be improved with some tweaks. Getting rid of the provincials shouldnt happen in my opinion."
The counties you list reflect the overall problem of imbalance. Roscommon and Cavan have realistic chances of success as they are in provinces where there are number of evenly matched teams and they themselves are playing at a high level.

Meath and Tipp are always going to be facing in the Dublin and Kerry roadblocks. Fair enough Meath have history, but really Tipp have no history of winning and will always be up against hurling.

Cork - fair enough as they are a big county and history, but realistically they are coming from a low base and again are competing with Hurling.

Overall, the real problems are Leinster and Munster Championships. I don't like the thought of losing the Ulster championship, but solutions need to found. In my opinion Hurling has shown the way were provincial championships have been merged so Leinster is now effectively a 'rest of ireland outside munster' championship.

himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 214 - 10/10/2019 10:47:32    2242519

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I think once Dublin have finally been beaten in their province or in the championship in general the buzz will come back I think. Right now they seem unbeatable, especially in Leinster.

kick_it (Leitrim) - Posts: 15 - 10/10/2019 11:28:14    2242530

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I would love to see something like the below be set up by the GAA.
It would make it both fair on club and county players. I think we are asking to much of county players and it is not fair to ask them to play league with their club.
It would make league very competitive.
It also allows club players to plan holidays etc each year and to plan training etc. We are losing a lot of young players due to poor organisation.
It would be up to each county board to organise their own house to get all hurling and football club championship played in April, July, September and October. League played in Jan, Feb and March.
The provincial championship is incredibly boring and needs to go.

January - Intercounty League/Club League (ex county players)
February - Intercounty League/Club League (ex county players)
March - Intercounty League/Club League (ex county players)
April - Club Championship (4 group games - hurling and football)
May - Intercounty Championship ( 2 group games)
June - Intercounty Championship (1 group games and q finals)
July - Club Championship (2 group games and q final - hurling and football)
August - Intercounty Championship (semi finals and final)
September - Club Championship (semi-final and final - hurling and football)
October - Club Championship (semi-final and final - hurling and football)
November - Club Championship (provincial and All Ireland)
January - Club All Ireland's

Tier 1 (example)
Group 1 - Dublin, Donegal, Cavan, Armagh
Group 2 - Kerry, Galway, Roscommon, Fermanagh
Group 3 - Tyrone, Cork, Meath, Clare
Group 4 - Mayo, Monaghan, Kildare, Tipperary, Westmeath

Tier 2 (example)
Group 1 - Antrim, Longford, Down, New York
Group 2 - Derry, Louth, Wexford, London
Group 3 - Limerick, Offaly, Wicklow, Waterford
Group 4 - Laois, Carlow, Sligo, Leitrim

Top 2 from each group through to q finals.
Two teams relegated and promoted from each league.
Winners of Div 3 league plays in Tier 1 championship each year. Draw to see which group that team enters.
Finalists of Tier 2 championship plays in Tier 1 championship the following year.
Bottom 2 of Div 2 league relegated to Tier 2 championship each year.
Two teams relegated and promoted from each league.
Division 1 league guaranteed to play in Tier 1 championship.

hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 125 - 10/10/2019 12:48:45    2242548

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Won't quote hopballref's suggestion here since it's so long, but will say there are several issues with it, for example:

1 - In just May and June, you're going to whittle the entire inter-county championship down to just four teams being left in each code, via three "group" games and the quarter-finals? I know you give examples group of four for both Tier 1 and Tier 2 football in your post, but what are you going to do with the hurling championship, and the groups of five in both Leinster and Munster, which actually takes six weeks from start to finish?

2 - For the counties that qualify for the semi-finals…you then expect these inter-county managers to be happy about letting their players go back to their clubs for at least two and potentially three (if the qualify for their quarter finals) intense and full-blooded club championship matches? Or in the case of players who play both hurling and football with their clubs, maybe as many as six matches in July, according to your scheme?

3 - Where is a dual county supposed to get time to play six rounds of club championship matches in just the month of July anyway? (two hurling "group" games, two football "group" games, and then quarter-finals in each code as well)

4 - If a county hasn't made it to the All-Ireland semi-finals, why then do the club players there have to sit around during the month of August, waiting for club championship to resume in September?

I've thought about this a lot myself, and there's no "one size fits all" master fixtures plan that can ever come down from HQ, no matter how well-intentioned the idea might be. Every county has its own set of needs and circumstances, and it's up to every county to do their best to come up with whatever arrangement best suits themselves.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 154 - 10/10/2019 15:30:53    2242591

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Replying To Breezy:  "If we do ever get a real teir 2 anyone know at what level some of the other British counties are at and would they be interested same as they are in hurling"
Hard to say without them actually testing themselves but I'd be thinking near the bottom of the pile.

Where are the pockets of interest ? London, obviously. Then Lancashire/Yorkshire, Warwickshire, Glasgow ... any more ?

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 88 - 10/10/2019 15:34:40    2242592

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "Hard to say without them actually testing themselves but I'd be thinking near the bottom of the pile.

Where are the pockets of interest ? London, obviously. Then Lancashire/Yorkshire, Warwickshire, Glasgow ... any more ?"
Football is usually more popular than hurling so I imagine Lancashire and Warwickshire same as hurling and Scotland who seem to be one of the top teams in the championship which is often won by Kilkenny so I doubt it's much good but it would be interesting to see if the wanted to participate maybe as a reward for winning their own

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 330 - 10/10/2019 16:23:30    2242604

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