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Kilkenny and Tipp Give Us A Traditional All Ireland Hurling Final

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Replying To Blockandhook:  "Don't think he made a meal of it. We could all see clearly that on contact with hogan's elbow/shoulder, Barretts head swung back from the impact. Maybe accidental or deliberate, I don't know but he could have been seriously injured. How do you know that Barrett made a meal of it. My interpretation was payback by Ritchie for a nasty bang in the face he received early on in the game by Barrett. That should have been a red card offence. The rule states that any contact to the head accidental or willful is a red card, plain and simple.
.."
Agree any contact to the head is a red. Why was Barrett still on the field?

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 25 - 19/08/2019 21:21:41    2227678

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Pat O'Connor 2001, I am sure he reffed the final!! I've defended some Galway 'causes' in my time, but Alan Kelly was never one of them, and likely never will be."
Thanks for the reply Benedict. Actually I think Pat O'Connor did it in 2001 alright. I remember Mark O'Leary of Kilruane got two goals. I think Denton, a Wexford man, referred the ill fated '89 semi Final

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2284 - 19/08/2019 21:45:33    2227686

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Replying To Canuck:  "Have to agree with you Oldtourman. Just one thing though. Clem might have been innocent on that occasion but had more notches on his hurley than Billy the Kid had on his gun for taking opponents out."
Suffice to say he was an Ahane man. They had nine men on the '40 All Ireland winning panel and as they often said they could play it anyway people wanted it.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2284 - 19/08/2019 21:50:04    2227689

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Replying To Canuck:  "Or whats not going through his mind. Like you know. " He never meant to hit him him in the head""
I never passed a comment on the incident,I never said what I thought was going through his mind,you see I dont know or does anyone else here know,that doesnt stop them from telling us what they think,what a lot of people are asking for is consistency,in the q/f against Cork a KK player was taken out by a Cork player,shoulder into the face,drove him flying,Cork player goes to ground too,rolling around as if he was the one taken out even takes off his helmet rubbing his head which didnt hit the KK player,theKK player got to his feet immediately,this all happened in front of the ref who just stood there didnt take any action,the KK player Richie Hogan,the ref James Owens,in his book what was the difference between the 2 incidents,

mooncat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 469 - 19/08/2019 21:50:04    2227690

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Replying To Canuck:  "We all know what the rule is but there is no comparison between what Richie did and Barrett's hit. Barrett's hit was in an attempt to win the ball. Careless and yellow card. Richie took a run at Barrett and was never going to win the ball. In fact a late as well as a head shot. Red card.
The greatest manager of modern times was very disingenuous by saying the ref could not make up his mind. In my opinion he knew straight away it was a problem for Richie and was looking for some good reason to keep him on the field. Sheflin and Tyrell were pathetic. Not worthy of further comment.
As for all these comments about the refs decision ruining the game. How about saying Richie's decision ruined the game. Mind you it is conveniently over looked that Tipp were taking over and ahead at this stage. Kilkenny were always gracious in winning and now need to be the same in defeat. Saying Tipp were the bettered team but for this that and the other thing , things might be different is not their form. We all know them, down today but back up as quick tomorrow."
Very balanced comment Canuck. Yes, Barrett should have got a yellow card for his foul on Hogan but Richie's lunge at Barrett had to be red. It was reckless and dangerous. Those who say Barrett made a meal of it are ignoring the video evidence. He was on the receiving end of a mighty whack to the jaw and, whatever faults Barrett may have, he is not a diver. Richie is not a big man but he is very strong. I believe his initial intention was to plant Barrett into the stand with a hefty shoulder but when Barrett nimbly side-stepped him he reacted by lifting his elbow and caught Barrett on the chin. I don't believe it was premeditated but rather a spontaneous reaction and he can't have any complaints with the red card. In fairness to James Owens, his body language suggested that he didn't want to send Richie off and he seemed to be looking for a good reason to leave him on the field before ultimately concluding that he didn't have any other option. The easy option would have been a yellow card and I think he showed enormous courage in flashing the red card. It was disappointing to hear the comments of Shefflin and Tyrrell, and Jackie was totally out of order in suggesting that Barrett exaggerated the hit.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 89 - 19/08/2019 22:04:57    2227694

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Have to say I think it was a red but a couple of things to mention. Barrets was a yellow, making an attempt to hit the ball and hitting a helmet with almost his grip is not a red. But he got no yellow!!
Nobody has mentioned tipps systematic tactical fouling in the first 20 mins. Once their half backs got turned they fouled, it was so obvious!! Yet Owens handed out no yellows to tipp in that period.

This feeds players view that we can get away with a bit more here which may have contributed to Richies decision to fly into that tackle, or may not.

The other issue I have with him not booking those fouling cynically is that they can do it more than once!! That is not good enough. He seemed so eager not to give a softish yellow so that itd wouldnt lead to a red but it may have led to a red in a different way!

hurler101 (Wexford) - Posts: 465 - 19/08/2019 22:09:29    2227698

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Replying To tearintom:  "So since yesterday the reasons it wasn't a red card include:

It ruined the game
It ruined the game and it's really expensive to go to a game.
It ruined the game, it's really expensive to go and game was over after the sending off
Hogan isn't that type of player
They're wearing helmets, knocks to the head aren't that bad.
He wasn't seriously injured
Barrett went down easy/ throw his legs up in the air
It was raining
It was an all Ireland final
The ref spoke to the linesman before making a decision.
Barrett also caught Hogan earlier around the head(whilst going for the ball, by the way Conor fogarty also caught Brendan Maher in much the same vein during 1st half but curiously no one mentions it)
We don't know Hogan's intent because apparently that makes a difference, maybe Barrett was really warm and Hogan was being a gentleman and attempting waft him down with his elbow
Did anyone mention it ruined the game??

Reasons it was a red card:
The actual rules!"
The game of hurling as it is played today is based on referees actually not following the rules to the letter, almost every single passage of play contains instances of fouls going unpunished, not just the missed ones, but ones that are deliberately ignored by the referee, hooking players hands as they handpass, holding hurlers down with the hurl holding hand when going up for a catch, chops, free taking techniques etc. etc. (all things that Kilkenny players do by the way, like all teams)

Not only that but often for serious offences that are penalized, they are done so not to the letter of the rule but often as a lesser offence. It is the majority held opinion I would assume, that it is better if the referees use their common sense where necessary rather than following the rules to letter, and overall the game is better for it. One feature of this however, is that while people are happy with this approach when it suits, they quickly run to the rulebook when it suits their narrative.

Of course you'll find a rule or even more than one that meant that Hogan deserved a red card, likewise you'll find one that asserts that Barrett would have deserved a red card but neither deserved them and if they did, then there should have been dozens of sendings off this championship.

Another example of this was the time that Shefflin was sent off by Barry Kelly, the glee with which people around the country quoted the rule book to justify Kelly booking Shefflin for tipping a hurl with his own, ignoring that it was a disgraceful call for something that happens literally dozens of times a game without even a free being given and they would be up in arms if the referee gave a free, not to mention a booking for each instances of that offence commited by their own county.

The common sense calls were free against Barrett for striking Hogan, possibly a yellow, Richie Hogan yellow card if it could be certain at the time there was contact but the rules state that both Barrett and Hogan should have been sent off. It appears most people are happy to cherry pick which of the two instances to apply the rules to

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 143 - 19/08/2019 22:18:27    2227702

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Replying To mooncat:  "I never passed a comment on the incident,I never said what I thought was going through his mind,you see I dont know or does anyone else here know,that doesnt stop them from telling us what they think,what a lot of people are asking for is consistency,in the q/f against Cork a KK player was taken out by a Cork player,shoulder into the face,drove him flying,Cork player goes to ground too,rolling around as if he was the one taken out even takes off his helmet rubbing his head which didnt hit the KK player,theKK player got to his feet immediately,this all happened in front of the ref who just stood there didnt take any action,the KK player Richie Hogan,the ref James Owens,in his book what was the difference between the 2 incidents,"
Cooper didn't raise his elbow that's why.....simple.......for a county who have won so much, particularly playing on the 'edge' and boasting of doing so via likes of Tyrell ye are doing some yapping and moaning when the tackling on the edge eventually cut up with you

Take your beating ffs , ye got away with things for long enough

PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 702 - 19/08/2019 22:19:42    2227703

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Replying To mooncat:  "I never passed a comment on the incident,I never said what I thought was going through his mind,you see I dont know or does anyone else here know,that doesnt stop them from telling us what they think,what a lot of people are asking for is consistency,in the q/f against Cork a KK player was taken out by a Cork player,shoulder into the face,drove him flying,Cork player goes to ground too,rolling around as if he was the one taken out even takes off his helmet rubbing his head which didnt hit the KK player,theKK player got to his feet immediately,this all happened in front of the ref who just stood there didnt take any action,the KK player Richie Hogan,the ref James Owens,in his book what was the difference between the 2 incidents,"
No they are not calling for consistency.They are looking for no calls again their team only. Especially the analysts. Lived in and supported Kilkenny for 20 years as my second team. Shefflin and Tyrell were and are terrible. Most of the Kilkenny people I know are humble when winning and losing. Henry's club mate was fine before the game but after the game he was sick. I do agree that simulations has got worse. This was not one. Richie took a run at Barrett with his elbow and hit him. No subjectiveness about it. Get over it and do justice to a proud hurling county. Richie changed the game (not the result in my mind) not the referee and I have sympathy for him in his moment of madness.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 636 - 19/08/2019 22:38:06    2227715

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Replying To sourmilk93:  "Clumsy challenge are you for real? It was a cowardly elbow he new exactly what he was doing."
You are about the only one on hear talking sense about the red card. It was blatant red card and a dangerous tackle.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2508 - 19/08/2019 22:44:12    2227720

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Suffice to say he was an Ahane man. They had nine men on the '40 All Ireland winning panel and as they often said they could play it anyway people wanted it."
If you played on Clem or Sylvia Linnane you knew you were in a game. It would be helpful also if you had eyes in the back of your head to watch out for them when behind you.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 636 - 19/08/2019 22:46:45    2227722

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Replying To hurler101:  "Have to say I think it was a red but a couple of things to mention. Barrets was a yellow, making an attempt to hit the ball and hitting a helmet with almost his grip is not a red. But he got no yellow!!
Nobody has mentioned tipps systematic tactical fouling in the first 20 mins. Once their half backs got turned they fouled, it was so obvious!! Yet Owens handed out no yellows to tipp in that period.

This feeds players view that we can get away with a bit more here which may have contributed to Richies decision to fly into that tackle, or may not.

The other issue I have with him not booking those fouling cynically is that they can do it more than once!! That is not good enough. He seemed so eager not to give a softish yellow so that itd wouldnt lead to a red but it may have led to a red in a different way!"
"Systematic fouling" is a bit of an exaggeration. Some of the frees given against Tipp in the early stages looked rather soft and to compound it by giving a yellow card would have been harsh in most instances, although I agree Barrett should have got a yellow. In fairness to James Owens, he seemed reluctant to issue yellow cards all day, even when Callanan was taken down for what should have been a penalty in the first half. Overall, I think Owens did a decent job. I thought his appointment was strange initially, given that he had reffed last year's final as well, but maybe, just maybe, he was deemed to be the best man for the job. Offhand, I can't think of anyone who might have done a better job.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 89 - 19/08/2019 22:54:42    2227725

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Replying To PaudieSull1:  "Cooper didn't raise his elbow that's why.....simple.......for a county who have won so much, particularly playing on the 'edge' and boasting of doing so via likes of Tyrell ye are doing some yapping and moaning when the tackling on the edge eventually cut up with you

Take your beating ffs , ye got away with things for long enough"
So you don't think Cooper's challenge on Hogan in the Cork game was a red card offence? A shoulder charge to the head? Because all I've been hearing the last 48 hours is how any reckless contact to the head is a red card offence (and rightly so I might add). Because this issue will come up big style in the league, players will be sent off for shoulder charges (malicious intent or not, elbows or not) to the head area.

The rulebook doesn't mention "raised elbows" as a deciding factor, is that just another one of those little non-existent add-ons people like to put on the rules when it fecks over a county they don't like?

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1082 - 19/08/2019 23:17:39    2227731

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Replying To PaudieSull1:  "Cooper didn't raise his elbow that's why.....simple.......for a county who have won so much, particularly playing on the 'edge' and boasting of doing so via likes of Tyrell ye are doing some yapping and moaning when the tackling on the edge eventually cut up with you

Take your beating ffs , ye got away with things for long enough"
That's right, About time a stop is put to this" over the edge behavior" on the pitch and then attempting to justify it by intimidating referees and influencing that spin in the media. Hope its addressed in Crok Park before someone gets seriously hurt. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

PatOLogical (Limerick) - Posts: 1066 - 19/08/2019 23:30:30    2227733

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Cody/kilkenny/their former players really showing their true colours in defeat

gahfan (Wexford) - Posts: 400 - 20/08/2019 07:05:50    2227748

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Replying To PaudieSull1:  "Cooper didn't raise his elbow that's why.....simple.......for a county who have won so much, particularly playing on the 'edge' and boasting of doing so via likes of Tyrell ye are doing some yapping and moaning when the tackling on the edge eventually cut up with you

Take your beating ffs , ye got away with things for long enough"
Here, Here-Spot on

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2284 - 20/08/2019 07:30:21    2227753

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Question - would a tackle like this result in anything other than a red card in any other field game in the world that has contact? Incl. Gaelic football. I think it's a red all day in any sport.
People have to get over what happened beforehand etc and look at it for what it is. If anyone on here thinks barrett's was a red, well they have never looked at or played a game of hurling up until 3 30 last sunday.
Kk people need to refocus on the great year the had to get as far with a relatively limited panel and see how they will close the gap tactically between them and other teams to give them a plan b or c. I think the last 2 finals have showed up some big chinks in the tactical nouse of the greatest manager we ve ever seen in Gaelic games - Brian cody. He doesn't do hammerings, and the last 2 finals have been just that with a lot of questions on the tactics employed etc. Sad but true. So time to move on and think of 2020 and see if we can get more glorious games in this wonderful game!

old yellar (None) - Posts: 2587 - 20/08/2019 08:30:19    2227757

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Replying To Heftydickonem:  "The game of hurling as it is played today is based on referees actually not following the rules to the letter, almost every single passage of play contains instances of fouls going unpunished, not just the missed ones, but ones that are deliberately ignored by the referee, hooking players hands as they handpass, holding hurlers down with the hurl holding hand when going up for a catch, chops, free taking techniques etc. etc. (all things that Kilkenny players do by the way, like all teams)

Not only that but often for serious offences that are penalized, they are done so not to the letter of the rule but often as a lesser offence. It is the majority held opinion I would assume, that it is better if the referees use their common sense where necessary rather than following the rules to letter, and overall the game is better for it. One feature of this however, is that while people are happy with this approach when it suits, they quickly run to the rulebook when it suits their narrative.

Of course you'll find a rule or even more than one that meant that Hogan deserved a red card, likewise you'll find one that asserts that Barrett would have deserved a red card but neither deserved them and if they did, then there should have been dozens of sendings off this championship.

Another example of this was the time that Shefflin was sent off by Barry Kelly, the glee with which people around the country quoted the rule book to justify Kelly booking Shefflin for tipping a hurl with his own, ignoring that it was a disgraceful call for something that happens literally dozens of times a game without even a free being given and they would be up in arms if the referee gave a free, not to mention a booking for each instances of that offence commited by their own county.

The common sense calls were free against Barrett for striking Hogan, possibly a yellow, Richie Hogan yellow card if it could be certain at the time there was contact but the rules state that both Barrett and Hogan should have been sent off. It appears most people are happy to cherry pick which of the two instances to apply the rules to"
What about the penalty in the first half that was given as a free on the 21 to Tipp? A clear pull down inside the big square. I don't hear any Kilkenny fans giving out about that decision. If Tipp lost that would have been a talking point.

The_Fonz (Westmeath) - Posts: 40 - 20/08/2019 08:50:56    2227763

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Replying To hurler101:  "Have to say I think it was a red but a couple of things to mention. Barrets was a yellow, making an attempt to hit the ball and hitting a helmet with almost his grip is not a red. But he got no yellow!!
Nobody has mentioned tipps systematic tactical fouling in the first 20 mins. Once their half backs got turned they fouled, it was so obvious!! Yet Owens handed out no yellows to tipp in that period.

This feeds players view that we can get away with a bit more here which may have contributed to Richies decision to fly into that tackle, or may not.

The other issue I have with him not booking those fouling cynically is that they can do it more than once!! That is not good enough. He seemed so eager not to give a softish yellow so that itd wouldnt lead to a red but it may have led to a red in a different way!"
I'd agree with a lot of this. In my opinion it was a red, however the red was a surprise in this game because Owens had down graded every yellow card incident to just a free prior to that moment. The tackle on Hogan, the 3-4 incidents when players were pulled back running in towards goal. Based on the way he reffed it up to then my initial reaction was one of he could be in trouble here but not he's definitely 100% getting the line. On that basis I thought he'll pull Richie aside, give him a yellow and restore some order on the game.

The eventually hammering was down to KK's poor use of the ball. Couldn't understand the constant lumping ball down the field allowing a Tipp player to come out and deliver ball into a lethal full forward line. Congrats to Tipp, it's been a while since they won 3 All Irelands in the same decade.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 20/08/2019 09:40:13    2227780

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Replying To ballydalane:  "Send me a link!"
There you go Sir - 2019 Rules:

https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/ho83ln0nlaxxzws1nryx.pdf

Page 50/51 deals with the Cat III Infractions.

Here is also a link to the 2009 Rules:

http://www.slaughtneil.com/Shared%20Documents/Playing_Rules_of_Hurling.pdf#targetText=RULE%205%20%2D%20AGGRESSIVE%20FOULS,a%20hurley%2C%20with%20minimal%20force.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 3889 - 20/08/2019 09:50:41    2227783

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