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Dublin's Success Not Down To Money - GAA President

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "There is no doubt everything was brilliantly executed and managed. I don't think anybody is questioning that at all. How many counties can afford a paid CEO, Head of Coaching and Commercial Manager though?

As for the hurlers, they have improved arguably more than the footballers but were coming from a much much lower base and it was always going to take longer. Success will come there eventually I have no doubt. You probably have several players on the football team that would make the hurling team as well which stymies the overall potential, they have the opposite problem in the likes of Tipp."
The hurling team won the league in 2011 a year which many detractors flag as pivotal in terms of the billions invested in Dublin GAA bearing fruit. What has happened to the senior Dublin hurling team in the 8 intervening years? They have regressed. They are in Div 1B now and struggling in the championship. But how can this be when money = success and we have Kerry posters telling us that it's "all about the money"? The first choice 15 on the Dublin football team still has 8 players from the 2011 golden generation with a further 3 on the bench. But how can this be when Kerry posters keep telling us that the money invested in Dublin GAA is generating an unstoppable conveyor belt of fresh talent? Could it actually be possible that money <> success? Surely not!

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 13/06/2019 12:15:56    2194354

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Replying To PyatPree:  "How there you attack our good friend Trump ;-D"
Dare*

PyatPree (Cork) - Posts: 376 - 13/06/2019 12:18:35    2194358

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Replying To Joxer:  "The hurling team won the league in 2011 a year which many detractors flag as pivotal in terms of the billions invested in Dublin GAA bearing fruit. What has happened to the senior Dublin hurling team in the 8 intervening years? They have regressed. They are in Div 1B now and struggling in the championship. But how can this be when money = success and we have Kerry posters telling us that it's "all about the money"? The first choice 15 on the Dublin football team still has 8 players from the 2011 golden generation with a further 3 on the bench. But how can this be when Kerry posters keep telling us that the money invested in Dublin GAA is generating an unstoppable conveyor belt of fresh talent? Could it actually be possible that money <> success? Surely not!"
Let's be honest here we bet Kilkenny's D team to
Win that league they were missing loads of players that day.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 13/06/2019 12:26:48    2194366

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Replying To Joxer:  "The hurling team won the league in 2011 a year which many detractors flag as pivotal in terms of the billions invested in Dublin GAA bearing fruit. What has happened to the senior Dublin hurling team in the 8 intervening years? They have regressed. They are in Div 1B now and struggling in the championship. But how can this be when money = success and we have Kerry posters telling us that it's "all about the money"? The first choice 15 on the Dublin football team still has 8 players from the 2011 golden generation with a further 3 on the bench. But how can this be when Kerry posters keep telling us that the money invested in Dublin GAA is generating an unstoppable conveyor belt of fresh talent? Could it actually be possible that money <> success? Surely not!"
That's fair enough and I posted earlier in this thread about how this is an exceptional Dublin football team that would have probably have come through anyways.

Give me an honest answer to this question though:
Do yo think Dublin get advantages over other counties whether it be financial or use of croke park etc.?

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 13/06/2019 12:41:13    2194371

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Replying To Gator:  "Nail on the head.

Its a golden generation but they are also getting a leg up (commerical money, croke park access).

All county teams should be treated equally. The commercial funds pulled in that Dublin can get is far superior to their next rival. If the GAA want to do fix leinster and get the race for sam competitive they have to set a framework for all counties to mimic the Dublin commercial set up. Max the incoming funding and ensure the funding to each inter county set up is equal."
Not all county teams are going to get a leg up though as john horan plan a 2/3 tier system which will cut 16 to 24 teams lose to play in a second or third tier championship, those teams will end up on the scrap heap and he'll be left with his 8-12 teams playing eachother endlessly with Dublin mowing everyone down.

This is the future of Gaelic football.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 13/06/2019 12:47:43    2194374

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The Galway footballers will beat the Dubs, and end the 5 in a row dreams.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2517 - 13/06/2019 12:58:56    2194379

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "This craic again. Firstly Dublin are amazing, no doubt, the best and most consistent squad we have ever seen but any Dublin posters claiming Horan is right are just ignoring the facts. And don't want to listen.

My favourite soudbite from Horan recently is when he talks about the full time coaches who go into the schools. He said the clubs are the ones who back these coaches, as if they are nothing to do with the overall funding ladder."
Paul Curran was coaching in my school 20 years ago there's always been coaches in Dublin schools. A coach is a coach lads the game is not rocket science you either have it or you don't.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 13/06/2019 13:00:25    2194381

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Replying To clondalkindub:  "Paul Curran was coaching in my school 20 years ago there's always been coaches in Dublin schools. A coach is a coach lads the game is not rocket science you either have it or you don't."
So you're saying Jim Gavin has played no part in Dublin success? Because you know a coach is a coach.

Do you also agree then Dublin shouldn't take any more funding for coaching?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1378 - 13/06/2019 13:14:05    2194394

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If it was all down to good coaching from volunteers , then they don't need that 18m

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1670 - 13/06/2019 13:14:33    2194396

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Replying To realdub:  "Look at the Dublin team this year compared to say 2013-2016 personnel wise. Money or no money, it took a brilliant management team to drip feed lads into the mix over the years and the team evolved almost without notice. This team can be beaten, its a question of whether or not the opposition has the balls or the skill to do it."
The bigger question is do they have the fitness or the strength and conditioning to do it.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 13/06/2019 13:16:35    2194399

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Replying To Joxer:  "Peter Sweeney wrote a good piece on the funding levels a few months ago

"But this isn't a simple matter of money. The right personnel were either in place, such as Dublin GAA CEO John Costello and Ger O'Connor, who was the long-serving head of coaching, or put in place, like Tomás Quinn as commercial manager.

And if it was all about the green stuff, Dublin's hurlers would be knocking off All-Irelands by now too, but they're not. And they're not particularly close either. It can be argued too that their senior footballers are enjoying a once-in-a-generation group of players under a once-in-a-lifetime manager.

Clubs, who have to pay half of their full-time GPO's €36,000 salary, with the rest coming from the GAA, have to fund-raise tirelessly and ensure that they were getting value for money and up their game in terms of recruitment and retention"

If only it was as simplistic as money = success."
Do you really believe what you write? Without the green stuff you wouldn't have been pumping out underage hurling teams of the quality you currently are. Clubs like Cuala wouldn't be dominating the club championship and your senior team wouldn't be within a few points of the best teams in Leinster and sometimes better.

The green stuff has had a massive effect on hurling in the capital and imo this is fantastic. Unlike your footballers the hurling and I presume camogie badly needed this investment.

When Dublin finally win a hurling all Ireland which will happen the GAA need to reduce the money big time so we don't get a similar situation where your hurlers dominate. The likes of Wexford, Waterford, Antrim, Meath, Ofally, Kildare, Wicklow, Down, Clare, Kerry all have great hurling potential and the Dublin hurling funds would be better spent investing in these then helping Dublin dominate the hurling.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 13/06/2019 13:23:37    2194403

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Replying To jimbodub:  "2010 lost to Cork, Meath (hammered by Meath)
2011 won Sam by 1pt a game Dublin could have easily lost and took an epic come back against the odds to turn the tide against an aging Kerry side, also could have easily lost semifinal to Donegal.
2012 soundly beaten by Mayo, struggled badly across the year in both league and championship. A poor year and Gilroy resigns. Both Mayo and Donegal (great side in 2012) better teams compared to Dublin.
2013 won Sam by the slimmest margin could have easily lost both semifinal and final. Semifinal being one of the greatest games of football seen in many decades.
2014 soundly beaten by Donegal in fact were very much embarrassed on the day, a massive amount of slagging came Dublin's way.
2015 brought to replay, could/should have lost against Mayo, won Sam by a score after a poor Kerry performance
2016 epic semifinal win, could have easily lost. brought to replay by Mayo, epic finals that Dublin could/should have lost to Mayo
2017 epic final could have easily lost to Mayo
2018 Dublin's first and only handy enough Sam win this decade, a poor enough championship.

***2016/2017 hugely costly missed free kicks by Mayo

***Dublin have won two finals with late frees

The actual games themselves demonstrate that there's almost a collective amnesia to just how competitive it's been across this decade and that there's a strange mass cult of self pity that's descended despite the ultimate compliment nature of football seen across this decade.

It's as if Dublin are an unstoppable machine when they are anything but.. it's taken massive endeavor and really Dublin shouldn't be going for 5 in a row, they simply shouldn't. I've been at 90% of these games. I've stood there thinking.. "feck it we've lost this"

It's your own fault for not putting Dublin to the sword.

It's undeniably fact that for all the invincible hype nonsense that Dublin have been there for the taking on many occasions across this decade.

Some teams have put Dublin on their collective areses while others have failed to take the opportunity

The collection of Sams simply does not tell the full true story and this aura of invincibility for me is a form of mass hysteria based around a hard time for rural, it's a projection of frustration."
Well said great post , but they won't listen they've made up their minds already Jimbo.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 13/06/2019 13:29:17    2194408

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Its a relevant thread for sure but it is too late, the horse has already bolted.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 13/06/2019 13:37:44    2194416

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Who is he trying to kid ? O incidentally pigs can fly. I saw one once down at the puck fair and the puck was pulling a trailer load of turnips. That was us before we fell off.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2653 - 13/06/2019 13:50:04    2194427

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Imagine the great Kilkenny team played all there games at home? how many all irelands in a row would the have won?

brisbane (Galway) - Posts: 674 - 13/06/2019 13:54:22    2194432

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Replying To clondalkindub:  "Paul Curran was coaching in my school 20 years ago there's always been coaches in Dublin schools. A coach is a coach lads the game is not rocket science you either have it or you don't."
Of all the posters that there is no point debating this with, you are number one. You haven't a clue. I always defend Dublin and praise them but at least try and understand my post. Because your post is like something my auld lad would say, and he's nearly 80.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7882 - 13/06/2019 13:58:14    2194433

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Replying To Joxer:  "The hurling team won the league in 2011 a year which many detractors flag as pivotal in terms of the billions invested in Dublin GAA bearing fruit. What has happened to the senior Dublin hurling team in the 8 intervening years? They have regressed. They are in Div 1B now and struggling in the championship. But how can this be when money = success and we have Kerry posters telling us that it's "all about the money"? The first choice 15 on the Dublin football team still has 8 players from the 2011 golden generation with a further 3 on the bench. But how can this be when Kerry posters keep telling us that the money invested in Dublin GAA is generating an unstoppable conveyor belt of fresh talent? Could it actually be possible that money <> success? Surely not!"
Joxer not once in this board have I said Dublin's success is purely down to money. There are several factors at play imo, I think it's a perfect storm of a great generation of players, superb organisation and planning, excellent coaching and management, a favourable socio economic environment, high participation due to the funded programmes ensuring good underage players continually coming through and having all meaningful games at home.

Once Dublin got organised the way they did I think success was inevitable. I think the next 5-10 years will show us whether we have a serious issue or not, I don't think anybody wants one team continually dominating, not even Dublin fans.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 13/06/2019 13:59:17    2194434

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If the GAA wanted Dublin split how would the go about it???????????????????????? These guys are not stupid

brisbane (Galway) - Posts: 674 - 13/06/2019 14:09:34    2194439

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "I would imagine the funding model is whatever you got last year + / - a couple of percent either way, that's usually the way things work once costs start to get entrenched.

I don't think the funding should be withdrawn but it would be great if the same opportunities could be given to other areas. I haven't looked at figures or anything but given the success of the programme surely it is now time to take the Dublin model and roll it out (carefully) elsewhere?"
Im thinking more Macro on the funding model really and not just GDF. On that though, i would be pretty firm that Dublin get pretty much like for like, per euro to population as other counties. I think to a degree Dublin were underfunded for years based on their population until the ISF stepped in. Has it made a difference, certainly, the game has grown exponentially across the county and probably will continue. I think the model i use is flawed as im sure its not wholly down to population, but i think comparing Dublin to any other county for funding needs or registered players with is flawed as well i.e. The Ewan Mkenna model.

The GAA dont make known what motivates the criteria for funding GDF and for that reason everyone is shooting in the dark a bit, they really should as it would be immensely helpful for the integrity of the sport to have a rationale.

My own take is that in funding Dublin properly probably for the first time in its history, its unlocked many of the natural advantages Dublin have population and breath. It not unreasonable to expect that if you grow games and participation in an area of such a high population under one county banner that, that county isnt going to be strong. It Yeats terrible beauty stuff. Maybe it was always destined to be so if Dublins full potential was ever unlocked.

In analysis the issue presents the GAA with a number of dilemmas in my opinion:

1) The GAA actually dont supply Dublin with much of the 1.3 in GDF, the ISC provide 1 mill to grow Gaelic games in Dublin annually. So essentially Dublin take .3 in GDF from central funds. That presents difficulties in many ways, do the GAA decline this grant and loose 1mill? Do they take on the burden of funding Dublin? Is it right to undermine the investment already made, with the progression of Gailic games in a key area of the coutry? Is it likely to make a difference to the Dublin senior team as its run from sponsorship money? is it ethical to handicap a county? etc. Its soul searching stuff.

2) The value of Dublin, Dublin biggest strength and problem to the GAA is its largeness. a strong profile of identification with Gaeilic games in Dublin is a big market that reaps money. In three weeks between hurling and football Dublin is providing a gate of about 65k at 35 euro a ticket in the early stages of the championship less costs, that is very appealing if you do the matchs. Away form lads actually playing for the county if you have a population that big identifying and interested in gaeilc games and attending through historical interest participation commercially its important. Thats before you look at the likes of corporate sponsorship of the GAA with Dublin on the ticket as a big market to reach, corporate boxes in Corke Park Premium tickets etc. To lessen the profile of gaeilic games in the capital is ceding commercial battle ground to rugby and soccer.

Yet on the flip side Dublin is unique in that fully mobilized and natural advantages triggered its clear it makes it very difficult in the future for others to compete. Population, sponsorship no one can get or will get close. There is a strong case there to say if Dublin realise its full potential, then dominance can be expected, maybe it always was going to be this way. So you cut the funding to disenfranchise the growth of the game in Dublin to regress or you continue to fund and grow the huge potential. Its a big dllema.

People talk of redistributing the money. Where does this money come from? The GAA accounts are audited, every cent is generally accounted for. when you look at a population distribution of GDF, Dublin arent even the best, they do have more source population though. If the ISC cut there grant tomorrow on Dublin 1 mill, there would be less for every one then more. So massive dilemmas for the GAA.

3) The model, the GAA has a communal funding model, well really a hybrid model of money allocated from central funds for aspects like GDF and county let of loose for things like sponsorship etc. This horse has bolted in my opinion with contracts etc signed by every county. The era we are facing into now is we see counties and players maximize their commercial funding through market and profile. Some will be better and others will be worse. A dilemma for the GAA is to stick or twist and what to with Dublin in my opinion. Dublin will dominate this area, on merchandising, commercial sponsorship and if they were even bothered fundraising. Scarily now Dublin clubs are entering this arena with more vigor.

Its likely Dublin contribute more to the communal fund then they take out, take last weekend, 36k in Croke park, 35 euro a ticket, before you count premium and corporate boxes less costs. You are looking at millions. Thats one game in the early stages of the championship and essentially a dead rubber, the last two hurling games were full houses too. Do you try and keep Dublin in the communal model, grow the games there and let them contribute commercially for the good of the game. Huge revenue for the GAA.

Alternatively as Dublin are unique to you cut them loose and focus a communal money on other counties and let Dublin fend for themselves and fund the whole kit and caboodle in the county. Let them develop there own ground, corporate seating, hospitality, merchandising, sponsorship and let them keep the proceeds of their own endevours.

Huge dilemmas for the GAA. in my opinion.

The argument seems circular to me, everyone says Dublin have unique advantages like population and yet resent Dublin being treated uniquely, you cant have it every way.

Im very open minded by the debate and the solution. But i think its far delicate then people realize when these debates become binary on Dublins funding, good or bad or fair or unfair.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4443 - 13/06/2019 14:26:34    2194447

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Replying To cuchulainn35:  "If it was all down to good coaching from volunteers , then they don't need that 18m"
But 18 million is not just for coaching.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 13/06/2019 14:29:54    2194449

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