National Forum

McStay: Provincial Championships Have To Go

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Folks

Its ok shouting for the provincials to go. However their is no system in place to replace them. it comes down to money.

Say they are scrapped. Champs league style comes in. Tyrone win their first two games. They have to play, say for arguments, Clare in Ennis, and Clare have lost their two games and have nothing to play for. How many people are going to turn up to watch that game? 20 people and their dog, maybe. Look at the Ulster semi finals this year potentially, Tyrone vs Donegal and Monaghan vs Armagh. Massive attendance's. massive revenue.

Remember the GAA give 80% back to grassroots/clubs etc. What happens when the clubs have their begging bowls out to build new clubrooms or catch nets? Or county's need a few million to do up their stadium? And told there's no money.

I know for a fact there are many Div 1 clubs struggling in Tyrone, a football mad county and passionate as they come. God help smaller junior teams.

Look at the reports this week about rural clubs really struggling.

I think we should think long term about what we do about fixtures and not go for some thing of quick fix.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 09/05/2019 15:32:37    2182764

Link

Replying To Htaem:  "It's a creative suggestion Whammo I'll give you that, the equal amount of games is important I feel, it's a bit silly having teams playing different amounts of games to reach the same stage (draws not included of course, but they need to go aswell so we can have a master fixture list).

Ps, is your week 3 just a fcuk it why not week, doesn't seem to effect your championship at all :-)

My proposal would be to remove the provincials from the championship and use the NFL to seed teams with 2 execptions:

1. Provincial champions are guaranteed top seed.
2. Lower league winners take the seed of the team who finished last in the league above them, eg div2 champions Donegal take the place of Cavan who finished 8th in Division 1 (however this wouldn't apply if Cavan won Ulster).

From there you have 8 groups of 4, containing a team from each division (except for where a lower division team wins their provincial and earns top seed).

Each team plays 3 games, 1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral, top 2 teams in each divison qualify for the last 16 straight KO for Sam.

A second tier could possibly be then introduced for the 8 teams who finished 3rd in their groups which would cut down on dead rubbers and give teams something to play for. Obviously this sort of 2nd tier could be a difficult sell though."
No week 3 is so that teams knocked out before the semi finals don't get an easier schedule than ones who have to play a Provincial semi final. Evens up the number of games also to have 2 home and 2 away.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 09/05/2019 15:42:48    2182765

Link

Replying To The_Fridge:  "Folks

Its ok shouting for the provincials to go. However their is no system in place to replace them. it comes down to money.

Say they are scrapped. Champs league style comes in. Tyrone win their first two games. They have to play, say for arguments, Clare in Ennis, and Clare have lost their two games and have nothing to play for. How many people are going to turn up to watch that game? 20 people and their dog, maybe. Look at the Ulster semi finals this year potentially, Tyrone vs Donegal and Monaghan vs Armagh. Massive attendance's. massive revenue.

Remember the GAA give 80% back to grassroots/clubs etc. What happens when the clubs have their begging bowls out to build new clubrooms or catch nets? Or county's need a few million to do up their stadium? And told there's no money.

I know for a fact there are many Div 1 clubs struggling in Tyrone, a football mad county and passionate as they come. God help smaller junior teams.

Look at the reports this week about rural clubs really struggling.

I think we should think long term about what we do about fixtures and not go for some thing of quick fix."
Again I don't think the provincials would be scrapped, just removed from the championship and played as stand alone competitions. You could scrap the January competitions to name room though.

I think the provincials would still draw good crowd even if they were removed from the championship, they provide a lot of local derbies and that's often enough to get the crowd numbers up. As it is the likes of the O'Byrne and McKenna cup etc are well able to attract the crowd and that's when the weather is at it's worst, so I don't see why the provincials couldn't do the same under a new structure.

Tyrone could still be playing to cement top spot and Clare could be playing for 3rd (which could be incentivized in some other way, like entry to a 2nd tier KO for example). And yes maybe 20 people and their dog might show up but that's already happeneing with many qualifier games, unfortunately it's never possible to guarantee a crowd no matter what the structure.

I agree about thinking long term and not going for a quick fix, that's a given but what the hell has the Gaa been doing for the last 4 years when the GPA brought forward their proposal?

Burying their heads in the sand and hoping this all goes away by the looks of things.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 09/05/2019 17:30:31    2182789

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "No week 3 is so that teams knocked out before the semi finals don't get an easier schedule than ones who have to play a Provincial semi final. Evens up the number of games also to have 2 home and 2 away."
Ok fair enough Whammo, just wasn't exactly sure.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 09/05/2019 17:32:36    2182790

Link

We don't need anything like a Champions League Format!

This format is in place to create an Elite Competition containing the best teams from leagues across Europe.
Its not the primary competition for English, Spanish, German... soccer. The league is, and has been for years. And its never up for question. Maybe a hint as to how we should proceed?

One thing is for sure - no solution can be put in place without some teams losing out. But these teams currently have something which means most are losing out.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 10/05/2019 08:29:28    2182867

Link

Replying To Ban:  "We don't need anything like a Champions League Format!

This format is in place to create an Elite Competition containing the best teams from leagues across Europe.
Its not the primary competition for English, Spanish, German... soccer. The league is, and has been for years. And its never up for question. Maybe a hint as to how we should proceed?

One thing is for sure - no solution can be put in place without some teams losing out. But these teams currently have something which means most are losing out."
I agree.

I guess what you could argue is that the bread and butter should be Club leagues/championship and that Inter county football is a more representative level of the game like international soccer. That would make a World Cup style format make sense.

Personally I think that ship has sailed and we should just run a good quality league based system.

If you had something a long the lines of:

All Ireland club finals finishing on Saint Patrick's Day still.

Provincial championships played from end of March to end of April.

League based championship from May day to end of August. 17 weekends, with 3 club games per code played in that time.

September for All Ireland semifinals and finals.

Rest of the year to finish off the club up until Provincial finals.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 10/05/2019 09:52:38    2182883

Link

Fixing one problem seems to create 2 new ones on the GAA. Mc Stay has nothing to offer to this debate. Ulster and Connacht have great championships, the other 2 provinces might come back yet. Beaten div 3 and 4 teams should automatically enter a tier 2 championship. Their incentive must be to reach div 2. Beaten div. 1 and 2 teams can have a nibble at the qualifiers for the super 8.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 10/05/2019 10:32:05    2182895

Link

Replying To Ban:  "We don't need anything like a Champions League Format!

This format is in place to create an Elite Competition containing the best teams from leagues across Europe.
Its not the primary competition for English, Spanish, German... soccer. The league is, and has been for years. And its never up for question. Maybe a hint as to how we should proceed?

One thing is for sure - no solution can be put in place without some teams losing out. But these teams currently have something which means most are losing out."
Ok but if that's the case then why not just do a direct swap between the NFL and the championship. Div1 teams play for Sam, Div2 teams play for their trophy (Tommy Muprhy cup say) and so on.

But we really shouldn't go from having a league in spring and then another league in the summer, where does the cup competition fit in? England has it's league and FA cup, it doesn't have 2 leagues!

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 10/05/2019 11:20:48    2182908

Link

Replying To Htaem:  "Ok but if that's the case then why not just do a direct swap between the NFL and the championship. Div1 teams play for Sam, Div2 teams play for their trophy (Tommy Muprhy cup say) and so on.

But we really shouldn't go from having a league in spring and then another league in the summer, where does the cup competition fit in? England has it's league and FA cup, it doesn't have 2 leagues!"
We should replicate English soccer as much as possible. Its a format which works perfect.

Create 3 leagues, exception being - the top 4 in division 1 go into the All-Ireland semi-finals. This will maintain the most important day of the year, All-Ireland Final Day.

Run provincial championship in parallel (Cause the Provincial Councils will not vote for something which will make them null and void). Club Championship break similar to International Breaks. Defined season.

Its a tried and trusted solution but for some reason, it never seems to be considered.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 10/05/2019 13:12:21    2182929

Link

Replying To Ban:  "We should replicate English soccer as much as possible. Its a format which works perfect.

Create 3 leagues, exception being - the top 4 in division 1 go into the All-Ireland semi-finals. This will maintain the most important day of the year, All-Ireland Final Day.

Run provincial championship in parallel (Cause the Provincial Councils will not vote for something which will make them null and void). Club Championship break similar to International Breaks. Defined season.

Its a tried and trusted solution but for some reason, it never seems to be considered."
But it works over there, that doesn't necessarily mean it would work here.

Anyway I don't think they're a great comparison, you have 33 teams competing for Sam and that's it, there's 92 teams in the football league and something like 5000+ in the football system in England. It's a totally different landscape.

Anyway look, I'll agree that there's no silver bullet solution, the most important thing is to set up a system which is as fair as possible and gives every team an equal opportunity.

My big issue with a tiered championship is how the lower tier/tiers will be treated. We have a template in the form of the hurling championship, unless you're playing for Liam then forget about, you may aswell not exist. Make no mistake about it, lower tier football teams would be treated the same, it would be a disaster for many counties.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 10/05/2019 14:10:38    2182938

Link

Replying To Htaem:  "But it works over there, that doesn't necessarily mean it would work here.

Anyway I don't think they're a great comparison, you have 33 teams competing for Sam and that's it, there's 92 teams in the football league and something like 5000+ in the football system in England. It's a totally different landscape.

Anyway look, I'll agree that there's no silver bullet solution, the most important thing is to set up a system which is as fair as possible and gives every team an equal opportunity.

My big issue with a tiered championship is how the lower tier/tiers will be treated. We have a template in the form of the hurling championship, unless you're playing for Liam then forget about, you may aswell not exist. Make no mistake about it, lower tier football teams would be treated the same, it would be a disaster for many counties."
Agree with the this post, especially the last paragraph.

Lower tier teams would be forgot about, you can call it the whatever cup and stick a few ads on TV(who watches TV ads these days?) but it will still be poorly attended.

I actually have a small bit of sympathy for the GAA because its a very difficult situation, trying to keep everyone happy. They did create this but fixing it is a nightmare. There has been tons of suggestions on here and from pundits etc and there is a problem with all of them.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 10/05/2019 15:15:44    2182954

Link

Replying To Htaem:  "But it works over there, that doesn't necessarily mean it would work here.

Anyway I don't think they're a great comparison, you have 33 teams competing for Sam and that's it, there's 92 teams in the football league and something like 5000+ in the football system in England. It's a totally different landscape.

Anyway look, I'll agree that there's no silver bullet solution, the most important thing is to set up a system which is as fair as possible and gives every team an equal opportunity.

My big issue with a tiered championship is how the lower tier/tiers will be treated. We have a template in the form of the hurling championship, unless you're playing for Liam then forget about, you may aswell not exist. Make no mistake about it, lower tier football teams would be treated the same, it would be a disaster for many counties."
Totally agree.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 10/05/2019 15:47:14    2182965

Link

Replying To Htaem:  "But it works over there, that doesn't necessarily mean it would work here.

Anyway I don't think they're a great comparison, you have 33 teams competing for Sam and that's it, there's 92 teams in the football league and something like 5000+ in the football system in England. It's a totally different landscape.

Anyway look, I'll agree that there's no silver bullet solution, the most important thing is to set up a system which is as fair as possible and gives every team an equal opportunity.

My big issue with a tiered championship is how the lower tier/tiers will be treated. We have a template in the form of the hurling championship, unless you're playing for Liam then forget about, you may aswell not exist. Make no mistake about it, lower tier football teams would be treated the same, it would be a disaster for many counties."
Agree with that post. The hurling championship starts this weekend, provincial games listed, previewed on RTE radio, no mention the subsidiary competitions, Joe McDonagh, Christy Ring, Nicky Rackard.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1741 - 10/05/2019 16:16:37    2182970

Link

Replying To suckvalleypaddy:  "Fixing one problem seems to create 2 new ones on the GAA. Mc Stay has nothing to offer to this debate. Ulster and Connacht have great championships, the other 2 provinces might come back yet. Beaten div 3 and 4 teams should automatically enter a tier 2 championship. Their incentive must be to reach div 2. Beaten div. 1 and 2 teams can have a nibble at the qualifiers for the super 8."
This makes most sense because there would be less one-sided games and the provinces would stay

maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1196 - 10/05/2019 20:46:19    2183012

Link

Replying To thelongridge:  "Agree with that post. The hurling championship starts this weekend, provincial games listed, previewed on RTE radio, no mention the subsidiary competitions, Joe McDonagh, Christy Ring, Nicky Rackard."
How many problems are we trying to solve? Media exposure and promotion of games and competition format are two different things which need to be tackled separately.
We also have to be realistic - The media know what people want covered. If people from their own County started following their teams at these levels, then the media might do the same!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 11/05/2019 07:12:41    2183048

Link

Replying To Ban:  "How many problems are we trying to solve? Media exposure and promotion of games and competition format are two different things which need to be tackled separately.
We also have to be realistic - The media know what people want covered. If people from their own County started following their teams at these levels, then the media might do the same!"
That's a really good point.

I'll be honest I don't really care enough about Antrim to watch them playing national league in February. I actually could see myself following them if they were playing a competition in May, June, July.

Something that hurts the hurling competitions is the timing of their finals.

It's at a time when the main championship in both codes are in full swing and there's loads of games to be shown.

You move to a league based competition with playoffs at each tier and the finals around the latter stages of the main competition. There'll be fewer matches at that time and the latter stages of the lower level competition has more chance of being picked up.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 11/05/2019 10:03:26    2183065

Link

Replying To Ban:  "We should replicate English soccer as much as possible. Its a format which works perfect.

Create 3 leagues, exception being - the top 4 in division 1 go into the All-Ireland semi-finals. This will maintain the most important day of the year, All-Ireland Final Day.

Run provincial championship in parallel (Cause the Provincial Councils will not vote for something which will make them null and void). Club Championship break similar to International Breaks. Defined season.

Its a tried and trusted solution but for some reason, it never seems to be considered."
Something very simple that fits what you're describing would be the following.

3 tiers of 12, 10 and 10 in the main competition.

Keep the Provincial club finals on St Patrick's Day.

No national league competitions in February and March.

Ulster and Leinster championship can start on the first Sunday in March after St Patrick's Day (counties whose club champions won the Province would have a bye in the Preliminary round.

There'd be 6 weeks to complete Provincial football championship.

May Day weekend the Football championship would kick in.

The 12 team tier 1 league would be made up of: 4 Provincial winners, Previous season's tier 2 finalists, 6 next best ranked from the previous season's tier 1.

There would be loads to play for in that tier 1. Top 4 to All Ireland semifinals. Top 6 guaranteed to be qualified for the following season. Some of teams from 7-10th would qualify depending on whether a tier 2 or 3 team won their province.

Tier 2 and 3. 10 teams. Top 3 in each into the playoffs. 2v3 in the single semifinal with the winner gaining promotion. Top team from the league section is guaranteed a final place and promotion.

I think you could get tv covering the 4 playoff games in each of those 2 codes. Their finals would be played as openers to the tier 1 All Ireland semifinals, taking place on the second Sunday in September.

The league phase would be the 17 weeks of May to August. 3 designated club weekends would be set in stone in each code during these months.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 11/05/2019 10:41:25    2183070

Link

Intermediate levels work well in just about every other sport, + also in club football + ladies football. They need to be properly supported e.g. by having the semi-finals + final in Croke Park before the senior games

befair (Down) - Posts: 237 - 11/05/2019 21:43:03    2183179

Link

in the context of this weekends provincial games I think Mc Stay is wrong in all 4 provinces.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 12/05/2019 20:27:31    2183382

Link