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Which is preferable ? Given the talent drain and life style sacrafices in the modern world, is the GAA on a path to professionalism ? While an Irish 'professional set up' could not compete with AFL salaries - it could create enough 'full time' incentive pay to keep the best of our young talent on home turf.
In soccer, a Luxembourg 'Messi-type player' can sell his trade to global club teams - even if he is contrained for international duty. However, in the GAA, a player is constrained twice - by the 'parish rule' and again, by natural county birth (excl. exceptional county reallocation).
Something has to give - and I think some variation of national subdivision is called for - does that mean some form of professional set up ? - while it goes against the ethos of the GAA, its time may have arrived !
In the mid-90s, rugby union faced the same issue - there is a time and place for everything - question, would you rather support the current rugby Irish Provinces or those of the 1980s ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 08/11/2018 17:43:12
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I'd rather support the current Irish provinces for sure. I just don't see the correlation between GAA in its current guise and rugby of the 90's. There's no global aspect to GAA nor is there the TV money that allowed Rugby union go pro.
It's a non runner on alot of Fronts. I think the players in general would be for it bit the volunteers certainly wouldn't. In hurling you'd have the Munster teams...and maybe not Clare and Waterford because of finance. You'd have Kilkenny Galway and Dublin... a 6 team professional league. 7 at a stretch. Gaelic football wouldnt be much better. Lots of Gaelic football counties are get small.
So no future in semi or professional GAA.
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 09/11/2018 11:01:00
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It's a non-runner.
Rugby union draws upon a lot of financial and network support from its largely middle to upper class membership, and it was also much more international (at the elite end) in the 1990s then GAA is today. Rugby also invests a lot more in spreading the game to new climes than the GAA ever will.
Yet rugby has largely failed to spread its gospel beyond the traditional heartlands of the old British Empire.
Ireland is too small a country to support professional sports beyond a few franchises in the bigger global sports. Also, Irish people are also rather diverse (fickle?) in their sporting tastes: you need a strong core attendance, going to most games to support growing a pro sports franchise.
Probably only Dublin could sustain the sort of expenditure required, and even then, it would result in the games becoming even more uncompetitive than they currently are.
The conversation we should be having is on how sustainable the current GAA county model is, especially given the massive expenditure required to run top county set-ups these days, the pressures placed on county players, the spillover effects for the club game, the growing inequality etc.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 09/11/2018 11:56:12
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Inter County Games are in a transition period.
Professional demands are made on players not only without financial compensation but at a personal cost to them in terms of availability for work, career moves, and even educationally. At some point players will make themselves unavailable en masse because they have to, Already Leinster Football is down to a one horse race.
People will lose interest in travelling to matches due to low value for money, Then there will be compensation for wages lost and layer pay for play.
Danger is that if spectators stop going first they might get other interests and not return
On the bright side there is still some time to confront the issue. Good Thesis have already been produced on it and related issues
Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts: 518 - 09/11/2018 12:14:42
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I dont see the talent drain myself, it is hugely blown up because of a couple of high profile under age stars in the making.
last year there would have been 480 minor player starting in the football championship and we lost less than 20 to the AFL.
480 players the year before and we lost less.
here is a challenge for all of us , make a fantasy football team out of all the players who left ireland to the AFL in the last 10 years, not an easy task. wish them well when they go and welcome them back if they return.
this to me is cyclical . I might be wrong time will tell.
ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 259 - 09/11/2018 12:24:24
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Replying To ulsterrules: "I dont see the talent drain myself, it is hugely blown up because of a couple of high profile under age stars in the making.
last year there would have been 480 minor player starting in the football championship and we lost less than 20 to the AFL.
480 players the year before and we lost less.
here is a challenge for all of us , make a fantasy football team out of all the players who left ireland to the AFL in the last 10 years, not an easy task. wish them well when they go and welcome them back if they return.
this to me is cyclical . I might be wrong time will tell." I don't think the numbers going is the issue. It's the fact that it's the cream of the crop that the AFL teams want, the 'difference makers' to borrow a term from American sports. How much stronger would Tyrone be in the coming years if they had McKenna, or Kerry if they had O'Connor? Michael Murphy has an opportunity to go but didn't take it, if he had, would Donegal have won that Sam in 2012?
No sport can sustain its most promising players being systematically drawn away from the sport and it is starting to happen with worrying regularity at this stage. Of course you wish all these guys well and they are well within their rights to try to make a living from what they do.
As for professionalism in GAA, we are such a tiny market that it's a complete non runner. I can see some element of pay coming in to it at some stage, probably in the form of central player grants but we are a long way from pro GAA players. There is nothing the GAA can do as far as I can see.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 09/11/2018 12:50:39
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Professionalism is inevitable in my opinion, simply because a market exists where a player can make money from a skill set, in sport universally we have seen that this comes full circle and players or astute business men, provide a pathway of taking out the middle man or umbrella organisation. A sensible organisation prompts this.
It would however change GAA as we know it at an intercouty level. Going professional would likely open the can of worms of restriction of labor etc and some kind of transfer system due to restriction of labor between teams and contracts etc.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 09/11/2018 13:04:14
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Replying To TheUsername: "Professionalism is inevitable in my opinion, simply because a market exists where a player can make money from a skill set, in sport universally we have seen that this comes full circle and players or astute business men, provide a pathway of taking out the middle man or umbrella organisation. A sensible organisation prompts this.
It would however change GAA as we know it at an intercouty level. Going professional would likely open the can of worms of restriction of labor etc and some kind of transfer system due to restriction of labor between teams and contracts etc." Does the market exist though? Perhaps it does in Dublin but outside of that I'm not sure it does. Efforts to sell the game outside of Ireland haven't been that successful although it's early days.
I think if pay for play does happen I think the sport will remain amateur in name and players will receive annual grants through either the GAA or the ISC. County boards can't manage their own affairs as it is, imagine if they had to negotiate contracts and pay players wages etc.
I think you are correct in that it would require huge change in the organisation, not sure here is an appetite for that at the moment either.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 09/11/2018 13:52:31
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Don't think the numbers really stack up for professionalism, and the Gaa is a predominantly Irish sport, so the market is pretty small compared to rugby or football.
The Gaa could look to incentivize players to hang around, by maybe offering third level education opportunities (perhaps funding for certain amount of players), career advancement, upskilling etc. But you'd wonder whether or not this would actually be all that beneficial to the organisation in the long run.
Anyway I don't know how much of a worry the talent drain really is, like what are the figures compared to the 80s or 90s etc. People will always want to travel, especially when they're young, there's nothing new about that and the world is more accessable these days aswell. Also we take in a lot more sport and media from across the globe compared to 20-30 years ago so I guess based on those factors alone the drop off figures were always likely to rise.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 09/11/2018 13:53:36
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Up the grant system and give tax breaks, free health care for family etc
Obviously the way our country has changed the way of life has here too, it's a far smaller world nowadays and young people have so much more opportunity these days, they want a slice of it and as such there will always be players leaving but there's no doubt plenty more could be done to sweeten the deal.
Sure you had people calling the current level of grant paid to players "disgraceful" "shameful" not so long ago, they didn't even support the GPA being officially recognised in their efforts to support players.. "end of the GAA" "disgrace" "I'll never attend a game again"
Clueless stuff!!
... and perhaps if players had far better support decades ago the GAA world be in a much better place if it wasn't for the dinosaurs holding back progress and furthering opportunities for players!
You reap what you sow and if it wasn't for a few former players there still wouldn't be an organization dedicated in the effort to support players
Plenty would still prefer if there wasn't!
This is what you're up against and who could blame young lads leaving with such ignorant mindsets deep rooted in GAA culture
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 09/11/2018 14:19:23
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "Does the market exist though? Perhaps it does in Dublin but outside of that I'm not sure it does. Efforts to sell the game outside of Ireland haven't been that successful although it's early days.
I think if pay for play does happen I think the sport will remain amateur in name and players will receive annual grants through either the GAA or the ISC. County boards can't manage their own affairs as it is, imagine if they had to negotiate contracts and pay players wages etc.
I think you are correct in that it would require huge change in the organisation, not sure here is an appetite for that at the moment either." I think the market does exist personally Gerry the GAA's turnover was 65.6 million last year. If i was looking at with a business eye i think there is plenty of room to increase that revenue as well strategically either by structuring the season differently and making the whole thing more equitable and user friendly and closing many of the anomalies in existing competitions that we all fuss about. Comparatively to other other sports the GAA is very lowly priced as well. Im not saying that increasing ticket prices etc is the right thing to do, what i am saying is the potential is there as a revenue driver and an established domestic market. For example if Kerry had a nine month season week in, week out give or take, would a market be there if the games were desirable through season tickets etc, would it Dublin, Mayo etc.
I would agree on the whole in terms of readiness, professionalism would bring a sea change from top to bottom, you would have county boards run like business's with professional people running them that two would be an extra cost.
I do think its inevitable at some point given the market and life cycle of how amateur to professional sport seems to go. I think at a point players may be protagonists themselves, as demands raise and increased sacrifices need to be made and revenue increases or. If you look closely private funds are already seeping into county set ups. Kerry recently employed a S/C coach and a commercial manager being paid for by the county board. At what point does say a David Clifford say, im busting a gut getting here 7 nights a week for nothing and the lad training me or the lad in his office is pulling in 100k a year to get me to a place i can play to contribute to him getting his wage.
I could see Dublin prompting a split with the GAA or new structure with a few opportunistic counties if the GAA tried to split the county - just my opinion mind.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 09/11/2018 14:45:27
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Anyway I don't know how much of a worry the talent drain really is, like what are the figures compared to the 80s or 90s etc. People will always want to travel, especially when they're young, there's nothing new about that and the world is more accessable these days aswell. Also we take in a lot more sport and media from across the globe compared to 20-30 years ago so I guess based on those factors alone the drop off figures were always likely to rise.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 7940 - 09/11/2018 13:53:36 2150387
Exactly, the majority of Irish players going over to Oz will come back in a year or two anyway. Trying to take on professional athletes in a sport you've never played before is a tall order.
According to an article in The Irish Times earlier this year, nine Irish players accounted for 92 per cent of the total appearances since the "Irish Experiment" began.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-statistics-the-afl-s-irish-experiment-through-the-years-1.3634934
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 09/11/2018 14:46:22
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Replying To jimbodub: "Up the grant system and give tax breaks, free health care for family etc
Obviously the way our country has changed the way of life has here too, it's a far smaller world nowadays and young people have so much more opportunity these days, they want a slice of it and as such there will always be players leaving but there's no doubt plenty more could be done to sweeten the deal.
Sure you had people calling the current level of grant paid to players "disgraceful" "shameful" not so long ago, they didn't even support the GPA being officially recognised in their efforts to support players.. "end of the GAA" "disgrace" "I'll never attend a game again"
Clueless stuff!!
... and perhaps if players had far better support decades ago the GAA world be in a much better place if it wasn't for the dinosaurs holding back progress and furthering opportunities for players!
You reap what you sow and if it wasn't for a few former players there still wouldn't be an organization dedicated in the effort to support players
Plenty would still prefer if there wasn't!
This is what you're up against and who could blame young lads leaving with such ignorant mindsets deep rooted in GAA culture" Whats clueless is that you think the State should pay GAA players - grants,tax breaks.. even though GAA has annual Revenues of over €100 million. Hey as long as there is enough to pay managers under the table and fancy trips abroad for the GPA all is good for you
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 09/11/2018 17:44:25
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Replying To bad.monkey: "Whats clueless is that you think the State should pay GAA players - grants,tax breaks.. even though GAA has annual Revenues of over €100 million. Hey as long as there is enough to pay managers under the table and fancy trips abroad for the GPA all is good for you" So the GAA should pay players is it? Wouldn't that be professionalism.. no?
:)
You've changed Bad Monkey..
How's the not going to games anymore thing working out?
Missing the 4 in a row must have been a bit disappointing...
Although thank heavens you were completely wrong about the GAA ending and professionalism taking over if the GAA recognised the GPA. How do you feel about the CPA by the way?
PS
Irish sports council already pays IC GAA players grants and sure the sums have already been done and confirmed. IC GAA and it's players bring in 10s of millions of additional tax revenue every year... they'll just be getting back what they generate, not sure why that's "clueless"
Very simple way of keeping the GAA amateur while still rewarding the players impressively valuable input to the exchequer and our culture at large.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 09/11/2018 21:02:30
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Replying To Gleebo: "Anyway I don't know how much of a worry the talent drain really is, like what are the figures compared to the 80s or 90s etc. People will always want to travel, especially when they're young, there's nothing new about that and the world is more accessable these days aswell. Also we take in a lot more sport and media from across the globe compared to 20-30 years ago so I guess based on those factors alone the drop off figures were always likely to rise.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 7940 - 09/11/2018 13:53:36 2150387
Exactly, the majority of Irish players going over to Oz will come back in a year or two anyway. Trying to take on professional athletes in a sport you've never played before is a tall order.
According to an article in The Irish Times earlier this year, nine Irish players accounted for 92 per cent of the total appearances since the "Irish Experiment" began.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-statistics-the-afl-s-irish-experiment-through-the-years-1.3634934" We now have an all-time high 20 players odd in the AFL - while 20 of 480 players is still less than 4%, it is growing fast - historic stats have no relevance - I am more interested in knowing where this is going than where we were.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 10/11/2018 00:31:39
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Replying To TheUsername: "I think the market does exist personally Gerry the GAA's turnover was 65.6 million last year. If i was looking at with a business eye i think there is plenty of room to increase that revenue as well strategically either by structuring the season differently and making the whole thing more equitable and user friendly and closing many of the anomalies in existing competitions that we all fuss about. Comparatively to other other sports the GAA is very lowly priced as well. Im not saying that increasing ticket prices etc is the right thing to do, what i am saying is the potential is there as a revenue driver and an established domestic market. For example if Kerry had a nine month season week in, week out give or take, would a market be there if the games were desirable through season tickets etc, would it Dublin, Mayo etc.
I would agree on the whole in terms of readiness, professionalism would bring a sea change from top to bottom, you would have county boards run like business's with professional people running them that two would be an extra cost.
I do think its inevitable at some point given the market and life cycle of how amateur to professional sport seems to go. I think at a point players may be protagonists themselves, as demands raise and increased sacrifices need to be made and revenue increases or. If you look closely private funds are already seeping into county set ups. Kerry recently employed a S/C coach and a commercial manager being paid for by the county board. At what point does say a David Clifford say, im busting a gut getting here 7 nights a week for nothing and the lad training me or the lad in his office is pulling in 100k a year to get me to a place i can play to contribute to him getting his wage.
I could see Dublin prompting a split with the GAA or new structure with a few opportunistic counties if the GAA tried to split the county - just my opinion mind." To even consider professionalism GAA would need to massively increase turnover and they'll have a dangerous chicken and egg situation on their hands initially. If it doesn't work it could be a disaster. If you want to offer players even a very modest stipend you would be in to tens of millions in no time and there would be absolutely no turning back. I am sure the GAA have crunched numbers on it already.
Market here is limited and probably already at or near capacity so it's overseas revenue that has to be the driver. We have a huge diaspora that could be targeted and the GAA season runs opposite a lot of other sports. First steps would be to sort out that buffering dogs dinner they call GAA Go, offer good highlights shows and condensed games that will appeal to overseas markets while also ironing out some of the difficulties with the game on the field as you said above. No easy task.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 10/11/2018 07:33:40
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AFL is on the other side of the world. The geographical distance alone puts a limit on the number who will go there and stay. The biggest player drain would easily be to professional rugby though it may not be recognized as a drain as such since potentially very talented gaa players may opt for it and be picked on development squads before they have really blossomed as gaa players. My opinion anyway.
PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1902 - 10/11/2018 09:00:29
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The AFL with revenues of au$650m, supports 18 teams playing a 22 game season with average attendance of 33k a game. Players earn on an average salary of au$350k.
Using those numbers as a guide, to provide say €60k a year salaries the GAA would be getting to maybe 12 teams between the 2 codes.
I can't really see anyway you'd have a compelling competition with 6 teams in each code.
Without a drastic restructuring professionalism is completely unfeasible.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 10/11/2018 09:42:43
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "AFL is on the other side of the world. The geographical distance alone puts a limit on the number who will go there and stay. The biggest player drain would easily be to professional rugby though it may not be recognized as a drain as such since potentially very talented gaa players may opt for it and be picked on development squads before they have really blossomed as gaa players. My opinion anyway." We lose far more to soccer and rugby but at a younger age, all you can do is have good structures and let them make the right choice for themselves. The frustrating thing about the AFL is you are losing lads that have picked GAA as their sport and have played to an elite level at underage and even senior in some cases.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 10/11/2018 09:47:20
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Replying To Whammo86: "The AFL with revenues of au$650m, supports 18 teams playing a 22 game season with average attendance of 33k a game. Players earn on an average salary of au$350k.
Using those numbers as a guide, to provide say €60k a year salaries the GAA would be getting to maybe 12 teams between the 2 codes.
I can't really see anyway you'd have a compelling competition with 6 teams in each code.
Without a drastic restructuring professionalism is completely unfeasible." Whammo 86 .Your figures add up perfect for 12 teams on a wage of 60 k per player or 36 teams on 20 k per year by the same logic ! You could argue for 64 teams on a wage of 10k per year . It took the Afl years to expand a reach this market size but it started from a tiny support base compared to Ireland ( Afl was mainly a one state sport ) . Should the gaa turn profesional No , can it you figure a clear to see !
jfk21 (Dublin) - Posts: 51 - 10/11/2018 11:25:31
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