tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 13/09/2018 15:54:17    2141497

There is a big problem with centralising fixtures though.
1. Every county is different. Wexford has 12 teams in senior, Tipp has some bizarre conglomeration which would require a PhD to figure out.
2. This would only work if the county teams all played the same day. Otherwise the first thing that would be thrown at the central committee would be "sure he's a Kilkenny man (say, I am by no means insulting our great rivals across the Blackstairs), he is making Wexford clubs play the week before the county game but not the Kilkenny ones".
3. It would only work if dual counties like ourselves played both codes the same day. Difficult for dual supporters unless they play at the same ground. Not always practical or possible with home/away fixtures etc.

I do agree on one thing though - the setting of fixtures should be taken out of local county boards remit and that is the only way to stop the likes of what happened last year in Wexford with training camps, football practice matches, costing our clubs 2 weekends.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 13/09/2018 16:16:51    2141500

Yeh it's not fair all this carry on. Literally "forcing" lads to play a sport they don't want to. I'm so mad I'm goin to hop on my bike and ride all the way to my granny's house in Portlaoise!

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 13/09/2018 21:29:26    2141550

has the gaa ever had such a list of issues to sort out as it has in the next few years?
- a dominant team in football (has been done to death elsewhere so no need to discuss it here).
- a club scene dying on its feet,or indeed already dead in many counties.club game has been swallowed hook line and sinker by county scene.
- a club scene which means a life cant be planned around gaa.
- a commitment level required for inter county level which has players in many counties saying "why would i bother"?
- a game of football which is not a good product to watch.
- a game of football which is impossible to referee.
- under the counter payments to managers which are stretching the support of volunteers at club level
- stadia which are not up to hosting big games,but fans who want home games?

this list is off the cuff.i am sure there are more.welcome to add.

has the gaa ever been at such a crossroads?
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 2875 - 12/09/2018 10:47:13You make some excellent points.
I wouldnt say club scene is dying or dead on its feet and if you think it is how do you address that?
The club scene does mean life cant be planned around GAA but until people stop postponing games for any kind of trivial reason then nothing good will happen.
The 'product' of a football game can only become better viewing if the rules of the game are changed and this is completely tied in to your next point about refereeing.
Where do under counter payments to coaches come from? You either have to put in place some means to pay/fund coaches to halt many of the under counter payments
Many stadiums arent up to hosting big games and fans do want home games but we saw with rugby world cup bid and people giving out funding re that. Stadiums need the basics. Better food and drink options.

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 13/09/2018 21:55:39    2141557

has the gaa ever had such a list of issues to sort out as it has in the next few years?
- a dominant team in football (has been done to death elsewhere so no need to discuss it here).
- a club scene dying on its feet,or indeed already dead in many counties.club game has been swallowed hook line and sinker by county scene.
- a club scene which means a life cant be planned around gaa.
- a commitment level required for inter county level which has players in many counties saying "why would i bother"?
- a game of football which is not a good product to watch.
- a game of football which is impossible to referee.
- under the counter payments to managers which are stretching the support of volunteers at club level
- stadia which are not up to hosting big games,but fans who want home games?

this list is off the cuff.i am sure there are more.welcome to add.

has the gaa ever been at such a crossroads?
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 2875 - 12/09/2018 10:47:13You make some excellent points.
I wouldnt say club scene is dying or dead on its feet and if you think it is how do you address that?
The club scene does mean life cant be planned around GAA but until people stop postponing games for any kind of trivial reason then nothing good will happen.
The 'product' of a football game can only become better viewing if the rules of the game are changed and this is completely tied in to your next point about refereeing.
Where do under counter payments to coaches come from? You either have to put in place some means to pay/fund coaches to halt many of the under counter payments
Many stadiums arent up to hosting big games and fans do want home games but we saw with rugby world cup bid and people giving out funding re that. Stadiums need the basics. Better food and drink options.

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 13/09/2018 21:55:39    2141558

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 13/09/2018 21:56:10    2141559

Just one or two additions.
- The amount of money being spend on County teams at the moment is not sustainable.
- Paid coaches playing absolutely terrible negative football at club level,they think they are coaching geniuses but far from it.
- Is the top brass in the GAA going to address theses issues.They swept the team training camps under the carpet.
Completely agree with everything you say.Excellent observations.
ifindoubt (Donegal) - Posts: 78 - 12/09/2018 12:45:29And there is many coaches who are paid who play excellent/good brands of football and same with those not paid. How do you address that?
How do you address the money being SPENT on county teams?

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 13/09/2018 21:58:15    2141561

The GAA have no interest with club level, it doesn't bring in enough money to headquarters. Its the same with a lot of county boards, everything ploughed into elite county teams and county finals being played at Christmas. I can't see it changing anytime soon either.
Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 473 - 12/09/2018 12:50:03I dont think you can say county boards dont care for club game? What county finals are played at christmas? Senior finals arent anyway. U21 is but thats because it usually is only starting so late in the year.

Whilst hugely controversial and against the founding ethos of the GAA, does the GAA now need to accept how far it has come as an organisation? Would there be a problem of running an intercounty season alongside a club season? Breaking down the issues we would need to split inter county (football) teams into two competitions - 16 and 16. Drop the national league and Provincial Championships and have two groups of 8 with home and away games. Have a system where there is play offs at the end with All Ireland finals over by the start of August (start in Febuary) and run through spring and summer with promotion and relegation. Clubs could plan their leagues knowing they won't have inter county players until club Championships which could start in August and run through to November. Yes it would result in some form of elitism where inter county players are brought away from clubs for most of the year. The current situation of one foot in, one foot out is actually the problem why club games are not taking place. Whatever the GAA do inter county teams will have priority within successful counties. Imagine the club league starting in March with no interuptions right through to August, club football whilst minus inter county players would have a continious season. With at least 14 big games each at intercounty against teams of their own level every player selected for the county will have game time due to the intense nature of the Championship. This will result in club and county players having game time and a planned programme but still room for the same club championships come August. I do think GAA people need to allow our best players to play against each other in big stadiums, with big audiances but also to allow club players the room to continue local GAA games. There is room for both. At the minute we are trying to square a circle and making a complete mess.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 330 - 12/09/2018 21:21:16 There shouldnt be any problem with running intercounty and club seasons alongside each other but clubs and countys cant make anything work.
The inter county season doesnt necessarily need to be split. There's only 32 counties along with London etc. I would have divisions but four divisions of 8 of home and away games with a straight knock out provincial cup and an all ireland cup that could have Paidi O Se and Tommy Murphy Cups to give weaker counties a shot at winning trophy.
That would be about 20 weekends of inter county games. Replays would be stopped at inter county level.
There would then be 20-25 weekends for clubs and then 6/7 weeks of an off season.
And you are assuming most counties have a league like that for clubs and then championship.

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 13/09/2018 22:15:26    2141563

This will not be a popular opinion but I think the most stable solution is to try to move towards a National club league style model. What you'd have is a pyramid with say 18 clubs grown from existing clubs playing in a National League. Below that you'd have 4 Provincial leagues, where the champions of those leagues move up to replace the bottom 4 teams of the National League.
The 3rd tier would involve say 11 or 12 regional leagues. 3 in Ulster (Derry, Antrim, Down would be an example region), 4 in Leinster (Louth, Meath, Weastmeath an example), 2 or 3 in each of Munster and Connacht. Promotion to Provincial leagues would be given to the regional champions.
The 4th tier would be county leagues. With promotion to the regional level being available for county champions.
In addition to this you'd have an intercounty game that is ran much more like international soccer with scheduled breaks between club action. The club system would be such that players would be allowed a certain amount of flexibility to transfer between clubs. There would be no rules such as the parish rule to limit the size that clubs can grow to. The clubs would grow out of existing clubs (there are some Dublin clubs and clubs like Corofin that could already have the resources to field at a National level. This would be the end point but would need to be worked towards through transition phases to allow enough clubs to grow.
Hurling would follow the same model and could be useful in growing the game in non traditional areas. There may be a top National League level team able to exist pulling from a Sligo, Mayo, Leitrim, Roscommon type catchment area.
You would find that lower level clubs become feeder clubs to higher level clubs in the same area that is where the support for the larger club draws from. You would find top players moving to a National League club at the height of their abilities but they'd probably then move back down to their home clubs in time as the drop back down in their 30s.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2100 - 13/09/2018 07:21:51That would just change whole structure of GAAs parish/community ethos with players moving between clubs much more. Is that needed?
Is funding there to cover all extra costs that would be required for competition like this?

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 13/09/2018 22:17:41    2141564

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 13/09/2018 23:21:56    2141585

wicklu (Wicklow) - Posts: 331 - 14/09/2018 07:32:10    2141596

In fairness DonaldDuck, you make some good points there, and there aren't many county finals played at Christmas. But that is because once the clubs play sometimes 2-3 games a week to "get the fixtures ran off". Imagine if a county team were told to play 2-3 games per week?
Your point on clubs cancelling games for every trivial reason is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario, the reason things are planned and games cancelled is because there is no way you can plan for anything. If you could get a fixture list at the start of the year, and plan a life around GAA, that is surely not too much for an amateur player to expect?
I thought up until this year (I am only playing adult GAA for a couple of years) it was getting better but from speaking to older players this year was by far the worst and was only improved because Wexford were knocked out early in both codes.

wicklu, your "Relax lad and take part if you want. If not, tip on" sounds like something an auld lad in a club would say to me if complained about having to change plans to play a match - the same auld lad would then complain about a young lad quitting the GAA which is happening all too often. Do you honestly think football refereeing is OK? 10k for a manager, plenty of clubs are paying multiple times that for what I would view as a very bad return on investment which is something I am learning about in college!
The drop-our rate alone tells me that the vast majority of young lads are "tipping on" - do you not think the reasons why should be looked at? I thought the original post and most of the responses were very accurate.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 14/09/2018 08:54:34    2141604

In fairness DonaldDuck, you make some good points there, and there aren't many county finals played at Christmas. But that is because once the clubs play sometimes 2-3 games a week to "get the fixtures ran off". Imagine if a county team were told to play 2-3 games per week?
Your point on clubs cancelling games for every trivial reason is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario, the reason things are planned and games cancelled is because there is no way you can plan for anything. If you could get a fixture list at the start of the year, and plan a life around GAA, that is surely not too much for an amateur player to expect?
I thought up until this year (I am only playing adult GAA for a couple of years) it was getting better but from speaking to older players this year was by far the worst and was only improved because Wexford were knocked out early in both codes.

wicklu, your "Relax lad and take part if you want. If not, tip on" sounds like something an auld lad in a club would say to me if complained about having to change plans to play a match - the same auld lad would then complain about a young lad quitting the GAA which is happening all too often. Do you honestly think football refereeing is OK? 10k for a manager, plenty of clubs are paying multiple times that for what I would view as a very bad return on investment which is something I am learning about in college!
The drop-our rate alone tells me that the vast majority of young lads are "tipping on" - do you not think the reasons why should be looked at? I thought the original post and most of the responses were very accurate.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 98 - 14/09/2018 08:54:34 How many counties regularly have clubs playing 2/3 games a week to run things off?
My point on clubs cancelling games for trivial reasons isnt a chciken and egg scenario.
Yes there should be some sort of masters fixture list but thats much harder to do when you are looking for players from county level and waiting on that at times.
Rugby/Soccer can plan games months in advance because they simply have a league as main competition and are not reliant on waiting for players at higher level by and large.

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 14/09/2018 09:48:57    2141628

in wexford,only a few weeks ago,st martins played 3 matches in 8 days or something crazy like that.hurling and football.
now admittedly,they requested it due to some fundraiser.so clubs are just as responsible as county boards.
i think what StoreyTash is trying to say though,is if you dont want matches cancelled for trivial reasons,then you need to have a proper fixtures calender?no point fixing a match for 2 weeks away and then realising the whole squad is at a wedding or a stag party or electric picnic.
if it was in january,at very least,clubs can look at the fixtures and say "we are definitely playing that weekend in July,dont plan anything" and clubs,players,supporters can plan the above around these.
i would be inclined to agree that there is no reason why 2 weekends a month cant be given to the club game.we have let the county game swallow it hook line and sinker,time to redress the balance and stop letting the inter county management call all the tunes.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 14/09/2018 12:39:32    2141681

Biggest issue faced in the GAA is the fact that a player can be on 3 or 4 teams (hurling, football and county etc) which does not happen in other sports.

This is the key factor people never think of when complaining other sports have a master plan. They are not trying to run off 4 to 6 competitions with the same players at the same time.

Then the overlapping with minor and U/21, and so on...its impossible

In county, League matches should be fixed and played regardless of county commitments. And not called off for any reason. So from March through to July

Then tag on championship at the end of if in mid-August to end of September or worse case mid-October.

Biggest issue with the clubs fixtures it the clubs themselves

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 14/09/2018 15:16:08    2141734

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1337 - 14/09/2018 16:12:37    2141757

the gaa have an awful lot to hide.
sorry i couldnt remember exactly martins situation.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 14/09/2018 16:30:59    2141763

in wexford,only a few weeks ago,st martins played 3 matches in 8 days or something crazy like that.hurling and football.
now admittedly,they requested it due to some fundraiser.so clubs are just as responsible as county boards.
i think what StoreyTash is trying to say though,is if you dont want matches cancelled for trivial reasons,then you need to have a proper fixtures calender?no point fixing a match for 2 weeks away and then realising the whole squad is at a wedding or a stag party or electric picnic.
if it was in january,at very least,clubs can look at the fixtures and say "we are definitely playing that weekend in July,dont plan anything" and clubs,players,supporters can plan the above around these.
i would be inclined to agree that there is no reason why 2 weekends a month cant be given to the club game.we have let the county game swallow it hook line and sinker,time to redress the balance and stop letting the inter county management call all the tunes.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 2881 - 14/09/2018 12:39:32A proper match schedule needs to be in place but only if theres a proper off season and proper competitions. When you have your main competitions as cup based knockout then its way harder to schedule things long term even more so if you look to postpone games because of intercounty involvement. And stags, weddings or music festivals/concerts are not good enough reason for a game to be postponed.

Biggest issue faced in the GAA is the fact that a player can be on 3 or 4 teams (hurling, football and county etc) which does not happen in other sports.
This is the key factor people never think of when complaining other sports have a master plan. They are not trying to run off 4 to 6 competitions with the same players at the same time.
Then the overlapping with minor and U/21, and so on...its impossible
In county, League matches should be fixed and played regardless of county commitments. And not called off for any reason. So from March through to July
Then tag on championship at the end of if in mid-August to end of September or worse case mid-October.
Biggest issue with the clubs fixtures it the clubs themselves
witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1361 - 14/09/2018 15:16:08Yeah thats a fair point but why not stop the overlapping of players on too many teams in places. If a player is a minor and playing inter county at that level then he doesnt play on some team or another. Yes i totally agree biggest issue with the clubs are the clubs themselves


No point in blaming managers for county board failures and broader gaa failures. Who decided on the super eights for example? A blatant money spinning approach which served what exactly?
The gaa do not care for the club game or the club player, the gpa are now literally a puppet organization bending the knee at every opportunity when in fact they are the ones with the real power, they pull rank and the whole thing falls apart, the gaa recognized this and got them under their control no matter what the cost.
April for months was a travesty as everyone knew it would be.
Why are we still playing meaningless pre season games, fbd leagues, o Byrne cup etc when easily we could start the actual league games earlier etc freeing up precious weeks later?
What are we having hurling league quarter final games where a team from the second division can win one game and end up in a quarter final ahead of a team finishing 4th in a higher division?
Other issues still prevail, the idea for pumping money into Dublin was a noble one, at the time, why has it continued and got bigger?
Why did the gaa vote against transparency, what have they to hide?
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 728 - 14/09/2018 16:12:37 Blaming the super 8s isnt really good enough. It only affects 8 counties and over 20 counties have their competition over by time super 8s start yet still take ages to finish their championship.
Counties need to play pre season games before the league starts. You cant go into league having played nothing. Perhaps getting rid of them and letting counties play as many or as few games as they like
Where is GAA not transparent?

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 14/09/2018 17:37:48    2141772

Well done to the Munster board for finally trying to improve football,the minor football championship will have the four weaker teams playing off against each other and the best two moving on to a round robin against cork and Kerry,a small step in the right direction.

cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 775 - 14/09/2018 18:26:58    2141779

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 14/09/2018 18:59:40    2141785